Something is going on with my skirt tetra and guppies; I need some advice.

[AquaticTurtle]

For quite a while now I've noticed most of my guppies(mainly the males from what I can tell) have what looks like shredded tail fins from something like fin rot, but it doesn't seem to be getting better even with water changes. I often see lot of the guppies sitting at the bottom of the tank and breathing faster than normal which makes me think they're stressed from something, but as soon as I get close to the tank they all swim to the top to be fed. I also have a group of 7 skirt tetras(mix of normal and glo varients) and currently one of them is breathing heavily as well as it's eyes are noticeably bulging compared to the other tetras(I have had one previous skirt tetra die from something similar, though it looked more bubble-like on that one fish eye and a type of growth around the eyes/face). There is a what appears to be a surface scrape of some sorts on the tetra where some scales are missing but it doesn't look fungal or anything from what I can tell(the fish move around so it can be hard to inspect them). The tetra has been kinda isolating itself by staying near the top of the tank or hiding back in a corner but it does come out when I go to feed the fish(even though I don't think it's been eating) before hiding again. I want to point out that some guppies have developed curved spines and I am aware that guppy inbreeding can cause that but some of those same guppies also look a bit skinny so I'm worried it could be something like "fish tb" that I keep hearing about. Given how many fish we have(forgot to mention it's a 29gal tank) and how many fish are showing these issues, I was thinking of trying a treatment of Kanaplex(kanamycin) to see if it would give some improvement to the fish but from what I read, some people have said it impacts the bio filter and some say it only hinders it a little so I don't know what I should do since we have so many fish and simple quarantine  methods won't do anything since the whole tank could have whatever infection this could be so I'd rather dose the actual tank. I do have Maracyn 2 and Maracyn, but I don't want to use those in the main tank since they'll impact the bio filter more and idk how the meds would affect the little clown pleco.

As I've mentioned, I have a little clown pleco and I don't want to do any treatments that would harm them, so has anyone had success with safely using kanaplex with a clown pleco present in the tank, and how much of an impact on the bio filter would the treatment be? Would I be safe to dose the whole tank and just make sure I use the water conditioner until the bio filter recovers a bit if affected?
I use the tetra 6 in 1 easy test strips to test the water regularly, it's a 29gal tank, and idk if this is relevant but I feed the fish tetramin flakes(sometimes I see them eat the tiny seed shrimp too that we somehow got years ago) as well as the occasional algae wafer for the clown pleco.

PH: It's usually about 8.0/8.1 last I checked with a liquid test kit(hard to tell with the test strips but 8.0/8.1 is around where the tap water tested at in the past).

GH: About 300(we have really hard water)

KH: I think the test strip showed 140.

Temp: 78

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrates: Around 40(for medical reasons, I couldn't lift heavy stuff and had to delay the water changes but I can now).

 

If anyone can give me some advice on what the issue could be and such I'd appreciate it, thanks in advance!

[Tony s]

Don’t stress the nitrates if it’s causing you issues. Nitrates under 50 is what’s recommended for planted tanks. My lfs isn’t concerned about them around 80. You have absolutely normal water for over half of the US. Your guppies have to be very happy in it. The real question is the kanaplex. Most plecos are very tough little fish. Common plecos can even take brackish water. I assume they’ll be just fine. I haven’t had to do that, but I don’t see a reason why not. Just keep a close eye on them 

[Tony s]

I have a question, how long have they been together? I have begun calling my glo fish sharks. They absolutely shredded a betta I tried with them. Betta has recovered. They may be doing the same to the guppies. Slower moving, with tasty fins. 
 

if both of them come from big box pet, it may just be a sourcing issue. Glo fish are tough, but not always from that kind of store. As for the guppies, they can be hard to keep alive from there.

 

[EggShappedFish]

On 2/10/2024 at 10:56 AM, Tony s said:

My lfs isn’t concerned about them around 80

80 is pretty high though. High nitrates are not dangerous, but bad in the long run. LFS don't stress the nitrates because the fish are only meant to be with them until they are sold and hopefully that is pretty fast. This is also why one never should compare how fish are kept in LFS to their actual needs. It's just a temporary stay. For nitrates, I've always gone with a max of 20 for nitrates. Higher values are not lethal like high levels of ammonia or nitrates but they will still stress the fish and inhibit growth 

Edited February 10 by EggShappedFish

[AquaticTurtle]

On 2/10/2024 at 4:05 AM, Tony s said:

I have a question, how long have they been together? I have begun calling my glo fish sharks. They absolutely shredded a betta I tried with them. Betta has recovered. They may be doing the same to the guppies. Slower moving, with tasty fins. 
 

if both of them come from big box pet, it may just be a sourcing issue. Glo fish are tough, but not always from that kind of store. As for the guppies, they can be hard to keep alive from there.

 

I've had the guppies and skirt tetras together for a while, with some of the tetras being about a year and a half and all these guppies were also born in this tank. Surprisingly enough, I've only ever see the tetras nip at the other tetras or eating baby guppies(good for population control at least)... For the most part the tetras kinda keep to themselves and it's only the males with the shredded/choppy tail fins. As far as the nitrates go, I try to keep them down as much as I can since this tank isn't planted and extra nitrates will only cause stress in the long run, not to mention the algae growth I'm getting.

Edited February 10 by AquaticTurtle

[Colu]

With the symptoms your describing you could have two things going on curved spines and weight loss can be sign of a parasitic infections the bulging eye and lethargy could have a bacterial component what I would do is a course of kanaplex and add some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help reduce fluid buildup in the eye it won't harm your clown pleco I have used kanaplex with bristlenose I had not harmful effects I no people who have treated other species of L number plecos without having issues then I would follow up with a course of expel p active ingredient is levamisole once a week for 4 weeks so do a large water change through gravel vac that will remove parasites eggs from the substrate add the medication blackout the tank as levamisole is a light sensitive medication in 24hr do a water change and through gravel vac and repeat on week 1 week 2 week 3 week 4 and add any extra air stone during treatment @AquaticTurtle

[Whitecloud09]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:43 AM, Colu said:

With the symptoms your describing you could have two things going on curved spines and weight loss can be sign of a parasitic infections the bulging eye and lethargy could have a bacterial component what I would do is a course of kanaplex and add some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help reduce fluid buildup in the eye it won't harm your clown pleco I have used kanaplex with bristlenose I had not harmful effects I no people who have treated other species of L number plecos without having issues then I would follow up with a course of expel p active ingredient is levamisole once a week for 4 weeks so do a large water change through gravel vac that will remove parasites eggs from the substrate add the medication blackout the tank as levamisole is a light sensitive medication in 24hr do a water change and through gravel vac and repeat on week 1 week 2 week 3 week 4 and add any extra air stone during treatment @AquaticTurtle

Salt is always the thing I suggest.

[Tony s]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:48 AM, EggShappedFish said:

80 is pretty high though. High nitrates are bad in the long run

That is correct. In unplanted tank, under 20 is best practice. But yes, nitrates are best described as being in a smoke filled room. A small amount of smoke is uncomfortable. As the smoke increases it becomes unbearable. But not necessarily lethal. I believe I heard of a study where they had live guppy fry in a solution of 800 with no lethality. Large scale African cichlid tanks often get in the hundreds. They have to be overstocked, and no plants.

but for the health reasons mentioned, higher is not preferable, but not lethal 

But then the algae goes nuts.  Which is weird, I have large glow fish tank, unplanted, no algae 

[AquaticTurtle]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:43 AM, Colu said:

With the symptoms your describing you could have two things going on curved spines and weight loss can be sign of a parasitic infections the bulging eye and lethargy could have a bacterial component what I would do is a course of kanaplex and add some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help reduce fluid buildup in the eye it won't harm your clown pleco I have used kanaplex with bristlenose I had not harmful effects I no people who have treated other species of L number plecos without having issues then I would follow up with a course of expel p active ingredient is levamisole once a week for 4 weeks so do a large water change through gravel vac that will remove parasites eggs from the substrate add the medication blackout the tank as levamisole is a light sensitive medication in 24hr do a water change and through gravel vac and repeat on week 1 week 2 week 3 week 4 and add any extra air stone during treatment @AquaticTurtle

The thing is, I’ve never had any issues with parasites other than an ich infection which I’ve eradicated back in like 2022 and that’s when I first got some of the tetras. I do have paracleanse and expel-p but I don’t have aquarium salt and have never used it. I’ve seen other bacterial related infections in the past and that’s why I thought this was bacterial since I didn’t add any new fish too recently and haven’t seen any other indications of parasites(at least externally). Is it really possible for internal parasites to be present without showing noticeable symptoms? The fish didn’t have these symptoms when I got them and only recently I’m noticing this stuff(and yes I did quarantine them first for few weeks). 
Edit: If I start the treatment with kanaplex today, should I do a water change first or wait til after the treatment since the nitrates aren’t too high yet? I was going to do a water change today but if idk if I’ll have to do one at the end of the treatment or not.

Edited February 10 by AquaticTurtle
Added an additional question

[Colu]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:16 PM, AquaticTurtle said:

The thing is, I’ve never had any issues with parasites other than an ich infection which I’ve eradicated back in like 2022 and that’s when I first got some of the tetras. I do have paracleanse and expel-p but I don’t have aquarium salt and have never used it. I’ve seen other bacterial related infections in the past and that’s why I thought this was bacterial since I didn’t add any new fish too recently and haven’t seen any other indications of parasites(at least externally). Is it really possible for internal parasites to be present without showing noticeable symptoms? The fish didn’t have these symptoms when I got them and only recently I’m noticing this stuff(and yes I did quarantine them first for few weeks). 
Edit: If I start the treatment with kanaplex today, should I do a water change first or wait til after the treatment since the nitrates aren’t too high yet? I was going to do a water change today but if idk if I’ll have to do one at the end of the treatment or not.

I would do a large water change then dose kanaplex after the full course of kanaplex do a 50% water and run active carbon for 24hr to remove any remaining medication 

[AquaticTurtle]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:05 PM, Colu said:

I would do a large water change then dose kanaplex after the full course of kanaplex do a 50% water and run active carbon for 24hr to remove any remaining medication 

Just did the last(3rd) dose of the Kanaplex couple hours ago and so far I don’t see any visual or behavioral difference in the fish, so tomorrow I’ll do another water change(and put a new carbon filter in) then wait til the next day or so to try the Expel-P treatment. I know that medicine is light sensitive and the lights need to be off for it, but does that mean only leave the lights off for the first 24hrs after dosing or is that for the whole week(the directions on the box don’t specify for how long)?

[Colu]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:01 AM, AquaticTurtle said:

Just did the last(3rd) dose of the Kanaplex couple hours ago and so far I don’t see any visual or behavioral difference in the fish, so tomorrow I’ll do another water change(and put a new carbon filter in) then wait til the next day or so to try the Expel-P treatment. I know that medicine is light sensitive and the lights need to be off for it, but does that mean only leave the lights off for the first 24hrs after dosing or is that for the whole week(the directions on the box don’t specify for how long)?

Just leave the light off for 24hr during treatment 

[AquaticTurtle]

On 2/15/2024 at 11:16 PM, Colu said:

Just leave the light off for 24hr during treatment 

Alright thanks! Hopefully the medicine will work because if it doesn’t then I don’t know what else I could do to find the main problem. 🙏

[AquaticTurtle]

So far I haven’t noticed any parasites or worms coming from the fish after the first dose of expel-p(which was last Sunday), but I’m going to do the next dose tomorrow(which is Sunday) and see if anything changes. All the symptoms of the fish are still the same with no noticeable improvement, so if the medication is working, how long would it take to start seeing improvements? Could it take multiple treatments to see any parasites excreted(if there are parasites), and would I be able to visibly see them or are they microscopic? If this medication doesn’t work I don’t know what else I can do to help the fish but I certainly don’t want more fish deaths and whatever this is seems to be killing them slowly(which is why I initially guessed “fish tb” due to the symptoms and the fact no water changes or medicines worked on previous fish with similar symptoms). 

[AquaticTurtle]

Update: The one skirt tetra that had the bulging eyes, rapid breathing, no appetite, and spot of missing scales has died as well as couple guppies. I noticed that before the tetra died, it had whiteish/milky colored spots on the fins that looked like it could’ve been a secondary fungal(?) infection(it wasn’t fuzzy or ich Ik that for a fact).
The guppies also still have the rapid breathing, lethargy(they swim occasionally and to the top to eat but they don’t all eat), as well as the few with bent spines(and sunken bellies on those individuals). Most of the male guppies have some ragged tail fin damage from what I’m pretty sure is something bacterial as they don’t get bothered by other fish. I’ve tried Kanaplex(kanamycin) and Expel-P(levamisole) but neither have shown to help the issues my fish are facing, and I’m at a loss for what to do next because there’s clearly some kind of infection going on and it’s apparently not parasitic(and I haven’t seen any worms either).. I do have Maracyn-2 and Maracyn, but given how many fish are affected I’d have to dose the whole main tank which would destroy the already potentially impacted bio filter. I’ve used both Maracyns in a quarantine tank with a previous sick skirt tetra we had months ago which had similar symptoms before it’s death(bubble on eye, rapid breathing, not eating much, weird growths around eyes/face, and small lesion on each side of body in same spot), and those medicines didn't work at all. If this illness is the same thing that the whole tank is dealing with then I don’t think the Maracyns would work(assuming all the fish have the same illness) and idk what else to do because I don’t want to keep losing fish. 🥺

Current water parameters:

Temp- 78

Ph- around 8.1(same as it usually is)

Nitrites- 0

Ammonia- 0

(given the bio filter could have been affected, I added water conditioner just in case to make sure nothings toxic in case the reading is slightly off)

Nitrates- less than 10 according to the test strip

Has anyone else encountered any bacterial infections that cause symptoms like these? It is my understanding that in certain cases, sunken bellies could also be from the fish not eating due to being sick/stressed too. Nearly all the ones with sunken bellies are ones that have bent spines(like a “v” or “s” shape to some degree when viewed from the side). I’m stressing to find out what’s going on and I’m nearly out of options because the last resort is to nuke the tank with the Maracyns which I feel would just make things worse by killing the cycle(with all the fish in there, not having a cycle would be bad) and I want to avoid that. So many fish are sick so isolation isn’t an option at this point. 

[Colu]

It's no uncommon for fish to have two things going on going such as a parasitic infections and secondary bacterial infection what I would after your second course of expel p is do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days if there not eating dose the tank @AquaticTurtle

[AquaticTurtle]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:33 AM, Colu said:

It's no uncommon for fish to have two things going on going such as a parasitic infections and secondary bacterial infection what I would after your second course of expel p is do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days if there not eating dose the tank @AquaticTurtle

I already did the second dose of the expel-p on Sunday. Would the Maracyn 2 be safe if the clown pleco eats the food? My little clown pleco scavenges at the bottom and often ends up eating the leftovers that the others don’t eat and I want to make sure it won’t hurt it. Also, I don’t have seachem focus or garlic guard and may not be able to get it, but I do know that I don’t use frozen or pellet foods.. would adding the Maracyn 2 to flake food still work or no? If it can be added to flake food and if it’s safe for the clown pleco I could try that method, cause otherwise I’m out of options other than dosing the whole tank which may not work(according to previous uses) and would destroy my cycle, which is want to avoid.

I also want to add that not all the fish are eating because the guppies all swim to the top when I go to feed them, however I’ve noticed that some of them just kinda swim with the others and don’t pay attention/want to eat the food. 

Edited February 27 by AquaticTurtle
Forgot to mention something

[Colu]

You don't need to use garlic guard it just makes the medicated food more appetising focus blind the medication to the food I recommend using pellets over flake with this medicated food recipe it won't harm your clown pleco if you can't make the medicated food I would dose the tank with maracyn2 it could harm your benefial bacteria as it's an antibiotic treatment if you have some cycled media from another tank you could add if you start to see any ammonia or nitrite during treatment or you could dose bottled bacteria daily during treatment @AquaticTurtle

[AquaticTurtle]

On 2/27/2024 at 8:12 AM, Colu said:

You don't need to use garlic guard it just makes the medicated food more appetising focus blind the medication to the food I recommend using pellets over flake with this medicated food recipe it won't harm your clown pleco if you can't make the medicated food I would dose the tank with maracyn2 it could harm your benefial bacteria as it's an antibiotic treatment if you have some cycled media from another tank you could add if you start to see any ammonia or nitrite during treatment or you could dose bottled bacteria daily during treatment @AquaticTurtle

Is it still somewhat possible to use the flake food with that method or do I absolutely need to use pellets? If so, do you have any recommendations on which pellet food brand is good for skirt tetras, guppies, and clown plecos(that would be available at a local store)?

If I dose the whole tank with the Maracyn 2 instead of the food, you said my clown pleco won’t be harmed by it right? I don’t have extra bio media to add. Considering not all the fish have been eating, I’m more reluctantly leaning toward this treatment option because it’s basically last resort. I haven’t seen any ammonia or nitrite spikes after using the Kanaplex, so idk how much of an impact the Maracyn 2 would have on the beneficial bacteria but it’s looking to be my only option left.

[Colu]

I would use pellets over flake i would use hikari micro pellets there good for tetras and guppies or Xtreme nano pellets maracyn2 won't harm your clown pleco  

[Chad]

I'm sorry to read about you tank problems @AquaticTurtle. You're going through a lot of problems that feel similar to mine a few years back. I doubt I can give you any advice that will help but I'd like to try. I'm glad @Colu is here to help with advice regarding meds. I've never had much luck with meds, other than dealing with Ich, I hope that's just me. When you say your guppies are breathing heavily on the bottom I first think low oxygen or ammonia (which you don't have, your numbers are all fine). Same if they're on the top surface and doing the same thing. You mention nipped fins and fin rot. I only just learned black skirt tetras are fin nippers, so it could be your male guppies are being bitten and their already weak immune system is causing it to grow and become fin rot? Bent spines are genetic issues but better minds may know more. Sunken bellies, sadly, I've never been able to get a guppy to rebound from this. As soon as they start hiding and lose their appetite it's always ended badly. I thought I had TB in my tank, or some other really bad stuff that was slowly killing everything in my tank and maybe I did. But I also learned that I wasn't circulating or oxygenating my water very well in my tank (20 gallon long). Too many plants with too many fish with too little flow. So just curious, what are you using to filter your tank? Any plants and if so what kinds? It's a shot in the dark, but if I can help I'd like to. I also want to know if the meds did turn things around, fingers crossed they did.

[AquaticTurtle]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:04 PM, Chad said:

I'm sorry to read about you tank problems @AquaticTurtle. You're going through a lot of problems that feel similar to mine a few years back. I doubt I can give you any advice that will help but I'd like to try. I'm glad @Colu is here to help with advice regarding meds. I've never had much luck with meds, other than dealing with Ich, I hope that's just me. When you say your guppies are breathing heavily on the bottom I first think low oxygen or ammonia (which you don't have, your numbers are all fine). Same if they're on the top surface and doing the same thing. You mention nipped fins and fin rot. I only just learned black skirt tetras are fin nippers, so it could be your male guppies are being bitten and their already weak immune system is causing it to grow and become fin rot? Bent spines are genetic issues but better minds may know more. Sunken bellies, sadly, I've never been able to get a guppy to rebound from this. As soon as they start hiding and lose their appetite it's always ended badly. I thought I had TB in my tank, or some other really bad stuff that was slowly killing everything in my tank and maybe I did. But I also learned that I wasn't circulating or oxygenating my water very well in my tank (20 gallon long). Too many plants with too many fish with too little flow. So just curious, what are you using to filter your tank? Any plants and if so what kinds? It's a shot in the dark, but if I can help I'd like to. I also want to know if the meds did turn things around, fingers crossed they did.

Well currently I’m giving a course of the Maracyn 2 treatment and so far I don’t see any changes but only time will tell. I don’t have any live plants in the tank so we can rule out that at least. I have a hang on back filter with the bio filter and a carbon filter(I removed the carbon before using the meds though). The filter has a flow rate adjuster/valve on it and I did turn up the flow a bit to try to get more oxygen in there during the treatment. As far as fin nipping goes, I do know skirt tetras can be nippy but surprisingly they tend to leave the guppies alone and I’ve only ever seen them chase the other tetras(they have eaten newborn guppy fry though). It’s odd because the tail fins on the male guppies don’t look too different color wise/not fungal and they’re choppy , but they’re not getting better nor worse and I’d assume whatever they’re sick with is preventing regrowth but idk. I’m still not sure what’s going on but whatever it is seems to be affecting the whole tank and doesn’t seem like it’s something that came on too suddenly. 

Edited March 2 by AquaticTurtle
Forgot to add something

[Chad]

Sounds like you got a great setup and I’m glad you’re medicating. I think whenever I tried to medicate it was a too little too late kinda thing. Great move with your hang on back. Both carbon and flow. As for nipping, my experience is nipped fins regrow more slowly than I thought they would. As long as they’re stable or growing slowly you’re fine. In my case, the fin got nipped and then started dissolving. That told me I had more going on in my tank. If that’s not the case you’re doing the best you can and checking all those boxes. Keep it up and good luck!

[AquaticTurtle]

I finished the course of the Maracyn 2 treatment and I’m gonna do a water change later tonight, but I don’t see any improvements so far. The only other two medicines I have left that I didn’t try yet  are Maracyn(might not have too much left though) and Paracleanse(I have just barely enough for two treatments). My clown pleco should be safe with those meds in case I decide to try them right? I think it should be safe to use them at the same time(least I think the medicines website says so if I recall)? Other than those two medicines, I don’t have any other options so if this doesn’t work then I’m completely out of options while my fish have some sort of mystery infection/illness that I can’t diagnose/cure and I’m worried that my whole tank will be wiped out by this..

Nitrates and nitrites are still testing at zero according to the test strip(couldn’t test ammonia since I ran out of the test strips, but I’ve dosed Prime daily just in case), and I’ve also added an air hose into the tank for bubbles/extra surface movement. It really has me worried that I won’t be able to cure them.