Med Trio Question

[NOLANANO]

I read the ACO article on the med trio and noticed it said not to feed the fish during the treatment.  I plan on ordering some fish online and I know that the dealers often times don't feed the fish for a few days prior to shipping to lessen the ammonia in the bag during transport.  Should I/Can I feed the fish right when they get in my tank and then start the Med trio later that day or the next morning?  I am just worried about the fish not eating for 8-10 days combined.

[Guppysnail]

I do not use preventative medications however I would recommend feeding for a few days and allowing the stress of shipment to dissipate a bit. Meds are stressful on fish. Feeding them up gives them the nutritional resources to deal with the further stress of medication.  

[Pepere]

I don’t until day 4, and then very lightly. I don’t want to wait and let a bacterial or fungal exposure brew for a few days before treating them.

 

 

[NOLANANO]

I have never medicated any fish before but this time I am getting Amazon Puffers and I have read that since they are wild caught they often come in with parasites and other issues so I figured I'd run the med trio on the tank when I get them just to be safe.

[Guppysnail]

On 2/6/2024 at 12:32 PM, NOLANANO said:

I have never medicated any fish before but this time I am getting Amazon Puffers and I have read that since they are wild caught they often come in with parasites and other issues so I figured I'd run the med trio on the tank when I get them just to be safe.

@Odd Duck and @mountaintoppufferkeeper are the folks I would consult for puffer med info. 

[NOLANANO]

On 2/6/2024 at 12:06 PM, Guppysnail said:

@Odd Duck and @mountaintoppufferkeeper are the folks I would consult for puffer med info. 

I have been picking @mountaintoppufferkeeper's brain a bit as I prepare for the puffers. He (or she, I guess I shouldn't assume) has been quite helpful.  I was recently talking to my wife about the research I have been doing and I referred to him as my Puffer Sensei lol. 

Edited February 6 by NOLANANO

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 2/6/2024 at 11:09 AM, NOLANANO said:

I have been picking @mountaintoppufferkeeper's brain a bit as I prepare for the puffers. He (or she, I guess I shouldn't assume) has been quite helpful.  I was recently talking to my wife about the research I have been doing and I referred to him as my Puffer Sensei lol. 

Lol ... he is a good guess.    i was described as a redbearded  sasquatch at work today true story

Edited February 6 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 2/6/2024 at 11:06 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Odd Duck and @mountaintoppufferkeeper are the folks I would consult for puffer med info. 

Thanks @Guppysnail. I do the coop med trio to personally and always have fritz accr if i need to dose for ammonia chlorine or chloramines. I have personally done Paracleanse (praziquantel), expel p (levamisole HCI) , pannacur c which [requires some math and a scale to dose] (fenbendazole)

[NOLANANO]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:36 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

Thanks @Guppysnail. I do the coop med trio to personally and always have fritz accr if i need to dose for ammonia chlorine or chloramines. I have personally done Paracleanse (praziquantel), expel p (levamisole HCI) , pannacur c which [requires some math and a scale to dose] (fenbendazole)

I have all the med trio stuff and I got enough Para cleanse to do a second round if it seems necessary.  

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I can say that the med trio took this puffer 

 

And the result was one of these four puffers

[Pepere]

On 2/6/2024 at 5:41 PM, NOLANANO said:

have all the med trio stuff and I got enough Para cleanse to do a second round if it seems necessary.  

The thing is with Para Cleanse is that you really should dose a second times after the initial dose.  The first dose kills worms, but not eggs that might be expelled.  A second dosing kills any worms that hatch from the eggs…. While encapsulated in eggs they are immune from the meds….  You should dose them irrespective of any signs….

[NOLANANO]

On 2/6/2024 at 5:51 PM, Pepere said:

The thing is with Para Cleanse is that you really should dose a second times after the initial dose.  The first dose kills worms, but not eggs that might be expelled.  A second dosing kills any worms that hatch from the eggs…. While encapsulated in eggs they are immune from the meds….  You should dose them irrespective of any signs….

I didn’t know about the eggs thing but my thought was that I should fully dose the paracleanse because parasites seem to be the most likely issue.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

 

This is the process i currently use and has worked on puffers in "less than ideal" condition on arrival

 

[Odd Duck]

I haven’t personally used the med trio but I definitely recommend repeated dosing of dewormers for puffers since they are more likely to end up with parasites.  Here’s my typical regimen.  I’ve used this for pea puffers but I’ve never owned bigger puffers.  Pardon any font or spacing weirdness, it copies strangely from my “Notes” app.

Deworming

Siphon out debris from the bottom before and after dosing to remove any expelled worms, eggs, debris, etc.  Levamisole is inactivated by organic debris and by light, so dose after lights out and black out the tank for 24 hours, remove organics via water changes and cleaning the bottom of debris as much as possible.

It’s likely that levamisole does what it can do within the first hour, but best to follow directions precisely.  If you have a bare bottom hospital tank available, it might be best and easiest to transfer the fish to that tank for the duration of treatment - up to 5 weeks total treatment time if doing 3 doses of praziquantal.

Levamisole treatment should be weekly for 4 treatments.  Praziquantal treatment should be every other week (at least) for 2-3 treatments and it is left in for a week at a time.  It can be dosed the day after levamisole treatment.  Remove any carbon or Purigen from filters before dosing.

Have enough dechlorinated water to do a 50% water change immediately if any adverse symptoms are seen in the fish.

 

A typical treatment regimen: 

1. 50% water change with careful siphoning of debris from the bottom of the tank.

2. Dose with levamisole and black out the tank for 24 hours.  Then 50% water change siphoning the entire bottom of the tank.

3. Dose with praziquantal directly after the second 50% WC.

4. One week later, 50% water change siphoning the bottom thoroughly.  Dose with levamisole following directions in step 1-2.

5. One week later (start of week 3 of treatment), repeat all steps 1-4 over another 2 weeks time.

6. Repeat all steps 1-5, then do last WC one week later after third dose of praziquantal.

Not all snails will tolerate treatments, so best to remove any snails in the tank.

 

Condensed, weekly schedule:

Week 1: siphon debris and do 50% water change, levamisole x 24 hrs, siphon.  Treat with praziquantal and leave in until next week.

Week 2: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon.

Week 3: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi.

Week 4: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon.

Week 5: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi.

Week 6: siphon.

[NOLANANO]

does med trio cause cloudy water? I am 2 days in and my tank is as cloudy as its ever been.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:09 PM, NOLANANO said:

does med trio cause cloudy water? I

Yes. It should calm down over the coming days. By the end of my 1 week marinade with the trio the water is just extra blue from the ich-x

[Pepere]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:09 PM, NOLANANO said:

does med trio cause cloudy water?

Not every time, but I have woken up to a tank so cloudy it looked like the glass was frosty…

 

I keep glass mounted double sponge filters in my display tanks and transfer them to quarantine tanks when this happens… it clears them up within36 hours.

[NOLANANO]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind not feeding the tank during the Med Trio treatment? Today is day 5 and I am fighting the urge to feed the tank. I think knowing the reasoning of not feeding would greatly help me resist this urge. @AllFishNoBrakes @Pepere

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I think there’s a couple of reasons.

1. If fish have worms, you want the meds to help push those worms out and the meds to do what they do to deworm. 
2. If fish are actually sick, they won’t eat as well as they normally would, just like a human. I know when I’m sick I have way less of an appetite. Extra food could cause extra ammonia if the tank isn’t cycled and/or the meds crash the cycle (even though I’ve personally never have meds crash the cycle).

3. Fish can go a long time without any food. 
 

Personally, when I use the trio, I don’t feed for 4 days. On day 5 I start feeding, and just a little bit. I increase from there to the normal amount over the coming weeks so the tank can catch up if necessary. 
 

Hope this helps!

[Pepere]

On 2/12/2024 at 11:37 AM, NOLANANO said:

Does anyone know the reasoning behind not feeding the tank during the Med Trio treatment?

All of what @AllFishNoBrakes said.. Also, the meds can wobble the cycle or even wipe it out if it is a young bacteria colony…

By not feeding for 4-5 days you significantly reduce the ammonia load going in to the tank.  Ie the fish are fasted, so they are not pooping out the same as if they were eating and their metabolism is also slower because the are not having to digest food.  If you feed very lightly day 4, skip day 5 and again feed lightly day 6, you minimize ammonia production. After day 7 you can waterchange out Ammonia as needed…

Given that we prefer to not change water until the fish have soaked in meds for a week, not feeding helps this.

Edited February 12 by Pepere

[NOLANANO]

On 2/6/2024 at 5:51 PM, Pepere said:

The thing is with Para Cleanse is that you really should dose a second times after the initial dose.  The first dose kills worms, but not eggs that might be expelled.  A second dosing kills any worms that hatch from the eggs…. While encapsulated in eggs they are immune from the meds….  You should dose them irrespective of any signs….

@Pepere Tomorrow makes 7 days from the start of my Med trio treatment. According to the ACO instruction article, after 7 days I need to do a water change.  BUT I want to do the second round of Paracleanse to make sure there are no parasites left in these puffers.  My question: do I do a 30% water change and then add the second dose of paracleanse? Or do I add it and hold off on the water change for 5 more days?

My secondary question is that the paracleanse instructions on the package said that I should add the second dose after 5 days. Today is day 6 (oops), should I add the second dose today or wait until tomorrow so I can do a water change prior to adding it?

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Me personally, I would do a 50% water change after 7 days, and then let the fish rest for a bit before doing any additional dosing. 
 

I currently have some wild caught black neons in QT, and it’s the first time I’ve considered doing additional doses of meds. I did the trio for a week, did a 50% water change, and now it has been another week. I think I’m going to let them rest and eat for an additional week, and then I’ll do a second Paracleanse dose. 
 

You want to give the fish some time to rest and eat before doing additional meds, I believe. 

Edited February 14 by AllFishNoBrakes

[NOLANANO]

That makes sense. I just don't want to wait too long and allow any parasites that may hatch from eggs to lay more eggs before the para cleanse can kill them.  The fish all seem healthy. I did see one flashing like day 2 of the med trio being added in but it was brief and I haven't seen any such behavior since.  This might be a dumb question but is flashing a guaranteed sign of an issue or do some fish do it once or twice to kind of scratch their back?

Edited February 14 by NOLANANO

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I’ve definitely seen fish flash, but I look for a pattern. If it’s one fish that I see one time, I assume it had an itch it needed to scratch just like I do sometimes. If I saw it repeatedly, or multiple fish doing it and doing it repeatedly, that’s when I would start to worry and assume something is wrong. 

[Pepere]

I usually will do a 50% water change after first week and place activated charcoal in a box filter to adsorb remaining meds.  I then wait 2 weeks before 2nd dose of paracleanse . I let that set for a week and then water change and use charcoal again.  I then watch the fush for two more weeks before I transfer them to display tanks.