Pseudomugil Gertrudae keep dying

[Steele]

PLEASE HELP! Hello all. A while back I posted about having trouble with my pseudomugil gertrudae. I purchased 6 about 2 months ago. After about 2 or 3 weeks I lost one and then a week later another and so on. I finally lost one of my males yesterday and am down to only 2. (First 3 were all female) my tank parameters are all in check. And no signs of any parasites, disease, or infection. They will go from literally one day swimming around fully colored up and eating to lethargic, glass surfing in the back, and pale the next. Dying a few hours later. I'm wondering if it's possible that my dominant male is just bullying the rest to death. I did notice him picking on the other male a bit before he died, and just caught him picking on the remaining female. (He is moved to a breeder box right now) I literally can not figure out any other reason for the deaths and it's stressing me out a bit. TIA

 

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrates 10-20

Ph: 7.4-7.6

Gh: 6-7

Kh: 3-5

Temp: 76 F 

 

Other inhabitants:

-12 Emerald dwarf rasbora

-6 amano shrimp

- ramshorn, trumpet, bladder snails

[Guppysnail]

I’m sorry you are having this issue. My dominant male killed all but 3 girls in his tank before he stopped being a terror.  I did not catch on until the last male was killed. Like you I felt something was wrong illness wise. 
The last one I watched him chase and ram repeatedly.  Before I could even get a net the other male had passed. 
I rehomed the gertrudae because they were to viscous for me. 
 

My luminatus are completely different and beyond peaceful and playful. 

[Steele]

So you're saying that's most likely the issue with my pseudomugil? I should probably just rehome him?

[Guppysnail]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:02 PM, Steele said:

So you're saying that's most likely the issue with my pseudomugil? I should probably just rehome him?

I was just sharing my experience and that being a possibility. I don’t know if that’s the right answer. You will know more by watching. Occasionally a time out cooks fish down. Sometimes more tall sight breaks. 

[Biotope Biologist]

It’s possible to have murderous inhabitants what does the tank look like water change schedule feeding schedule?

 

I have had a school of 10 before and they were completely docile. But it was a heavily planted 40g so there was plenty of sight breaks

[Steele]

I water change about 5-10% a week. It's a 40 gallon with a picture attached. I feed once a day about 2 hours after the light comes on. Definitely enough to fill all the fish up. I ordered 10 from Dan's fish coming in next week. Thinking about maybe bringing my male to my LFS. You think that may be the call here?

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:11 PM, Steele said:

I water change about 5-10% a week

Just going to note that you might have an issue with the volume of water being changed. It might be beneficial to compare tank parameters to the tap by doing an off-gassing test.

Take a sample of water from your water change source, test it right away.  Then, aerate it for 24 hours and test again. Compare that data to what you're seeing in the tank. If parameters are off and you see something like old tank syndrome setting in, that would point towards stress on the fish.

 

As far as feeding, how is that going? What kinds of foods are you using? Given that the issue is sudden it sounds like an injury. I wouldn't think that food is an issue, but it never hurts to check all the basics.

[Steele]

I actually use RO remineralized water as my tap is terrible. I feed a mix of northfin flake,  frozen cyclops, and Hikari micro pellets. Everyone eats completely normal and is very active. No issues whatsoever with ant rasboras or shrimp in the tank. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2023 at 2:38 AM, Steele said:

I actually use RO remineralized water as my tap is terrible.

In terms of water changes, I assume mixing station and the water is prepped ahead of time? How far ahead of time?

From the sounds of it, I would eyeball the tank and check for aggression issues similar to what @Guppysnail experienced.

[Steele]

I would say usually a week or so in those blue 5 gallon jugs you can get at Walmart. I just refill em with my ro unit and mix right in there. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:24 AM, Steele said:

I would say usually a week or so in those blue 5 gallon jugs you can get at Walmart. I just refill em with my ro unit and mix right in there. 

You want to aerate the water for a few hours before adding it back to the tank if it's sitting. Buffers take time to dissolve, but letting them sit can cause issues. You might be off gassing them  or letting things settle out if you mix too far ahead of time. Day before or sat of is usually best. Having a trashcan on wheels might be a lifesaver for you.

Essentially, if you add in water and it's not aerated, it could cause the fish to not have the oxygenation in the part of the water and cause some stress or other issues. Like swimming into a room full of smoke is the analogy (no oxygen).

Just something to keep an eye out for.

 

This one has the bit about when to get the water mixed:

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Steele]

Interesting. I have no issues with my other tank that has cherry shrimp and pheonix rasbora and never had issues with my old gudgeons tank but ill look into it. 

[Steele]

I wonder if saltwater and freshwater have yhe same affects when mixed. 

[Steele]

Are you also saying that I can premix it like I'm doing, but just throw an airstone in the jug an hour or so before the water changes?

[Steele]

Sorry to spam. I just cannot find any information saying it's bad to premix and store remineralized ro water in sealed containers. Could you explain a bit more when time 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:39 AM, Steele said:

Are you also saying that I can premix it like I'm doing, but just throw an airstone in the jug an hour or so before the water changes?

Yep exactly. For shrimp as well, you don't want to "bomb the tank" with non oxygenated water. It will and can kill them pretty easily.

On 12/14/2023 at 12:59 PM, Steele said:

Sorry to spam. I just cannot find any information saying it's bad to premix and store remineralized ro water in sealed containers. Could you explain a bit more when time 

There's some details in the video, happy to explain further.

The word your looking for is stagnant water. I.e. you don't ever want to store water when it's stagnant and things can grow. One of the easiest ways to counter that is to keep it in a sealed container until you're ready to use it.

My suggestion would be, adjust the method so that you store water, then when you're ready to do a change that day, day of or night before, aerate it and add in your buffers. That gives the buffers time to mix and they won't stratify.  They water won't off gas your buffers because it's a short time period as well.

Edited December 15, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:22 AM, Steele said:

I wonder if saltwater and freshwater have yhe same affects when mixed

It's basically all minerals, the difference being that for saltwater one of those minerals is NaCl

[Steele]

Let me know what you think of this plan. 

I'll keep my jugs filled with just pure ro. 

Day before my WC I'll add the remineralizer to the ro water shake it up. 

Day of water change throw heater and circulation pump in to mix more and aerate  2 hours before WC. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2023 at 5:49 PM, Steele said:

Day before my WC I'll add the remineralizer to the ro water shake it up. 

Day of water change throw heater and circulation pump in to mix more and aerate  2 hours before WC. 

Just combine these two. 2 hours is plenty to dissolve the minerals and give the water time to "wake up".

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

A lot of times, you'll see people who breed and keep shrimp say you need to drip water back in. You don't. A lot of the time issues come when water has been sitting and used or their is older mindsets where they say you have to use "aged water".  For some lines of shrimp, dripping the water back in slowly is absolutely helpful.

Basically, you want stable water. Water in = water out, reducing all the shock and stress as much as possible.  That's all it is.

[Steele]

So you think the method I put would work fine?

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2023 at 6:40 PM, Steele said:

So you think the method I put would work fine?

I wouldn't do the step of adding the buffer and shaking it.  One you let it sit, things will stratify and that's partially what you're trying to avoid.  Meaning.... Just add in the buffer whenever you aerate the water for your water change. After about an hour everything would be mixed, dissolved, and oxygenated.  I've seen reports that ~30 minutes is enough if you really are pressed for time.

A note from the salty side of things... much longer time to dissolve and mix, but it is specified on each brand of salt.

Once the desired salinity level is reached you should let the water continue to mix and aerate for the amount of time recommended by the manufacturer. Some salt mixes are best used within 3-4 hours of mixing (Red Sea Coral Pro) while others should mix for 24-48 hours before use (95% of other salt mix brands).

Edited December 15, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

@Steele I apologize for the tangent about water mixing!

I know you're trying to do your best for the fish and I can't confirm if it's causing the deaths you're experiencing.  I would keep an eye out like @Guppysnail mentioned for aggression and mating behavior.  Hopefully some of the other rainbow keepers can chime in here as well with any related advice and experiences too!

Edited December 15, 2023 by nabokovfan87
Dyslexic autocorrect to the wrong word. LOL

[Steele]

I appreciate all your advice on the matter and yoy sticking with me throughout the questions. I will change my mixing method and only make my ro water ahead of time and just just remineralize the day of water changes.