Recurring Discus bloat/constipation/tummy troubles?

[PluckyD]

So I’ve had “Pod”, my discus (yes, just the single one) since April 2023 (just 6 months now) and he seems to go through these periods of what I can only guess is some sort of tummy trouble. I did the med-trio when I first got him, and when I realized he had camallanus worms about a month in, I did 4-5 rounds of Expel-P until I didn’t see any more worms upon gravel vac-ing. I also did one or two rounds of Prazipro for good measure.
Pod would only eat bloodworms at first, but eventually would eat Hikari Vibrabites, Hikari Discus Bio-gold, and a few other foods…favorite is Ocean Nutrition Formula One frozen cubes. He is quite personable and follows me around the room, likes to be hand fed, etc.

During these bouts of tummy troubles, he mostly hides though he might take a peek to say hello and go back to hiding. He clearly doesn’t feel well, but eventually, he passes gnarly looking poop and then he goes back to normal. Any idea why this might happen on a recurring basis, say every 2-3 weeks? He is going through a particularly long bout right now and I’m worried about him and wondering if there’s anything I can do to help him. I dosed another round of PraziPro just in case.

Specs:
- 45 gallon display tank
- Moderately planted
- Weekly to bi-weekly water changes
- 83 degrees 
- Nitrate: ~30 ppm?
- Nitrite: 0
- GH: Hardish?
- KH: Lowish?
- PH: 7ish?
- Chlorine: 0
- Ammonia: 0

Tankmates (12 cardinal tetras and 4 sterbai cory, amano shrimp, rudolph shrimp) all seem fine

Oops, I accidentally submitted before attaching pictures. 

[PluckyD]

Ugh, so the picture with the poop was actually from a couple of days ago, but I didn’t get a chance to post until today. I just checked on Pod again, and it turns out he is in much worse condition 😔

Sunk to the bottom, very pale but with a very obvious black area around where I assume the intestines are.

[PluckyD]

The black spot went away and I have no idea if this is an improvement or worsening of his condition 😧

[Guppysnail]

I’m sorry your fish is struggling. We have great folks who may be able to help. They are on the forum around their work schedule so it may take a day or so. I did not want you to feel no one was going to help. 
@Colu @Odd Duck

[PluckyD]

Thank you @Guppysnail!

[Colu]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:39 PM, PluckyD said:

The black spot went away and I have no idea if this is an improvement or worsening of his condition 😧

What I would do is treat with metroplex in food feeding a small amount twice a day for upto 3 weeks and add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 10 gallons the salt will aid Gill function and add essential electrolytes at that level it won't harm your plants 

[Littlefish]

Beautiful fish, best wishes.

[PluckyD]

@Colu Thank you, I ordered Metroplex, Garlic Guard, and Focus from Amazon yesterday. Focus isn’t here yet, but I got the other two just now and mixed a scoop of Metroplex with Garlic Guard and Repashy community. (I’m a little wary because the Metroplex doesn’t have tamper protection, so it’s hard to tell if it might have been opened before, but hopefully I’m just being paranoid.)

I also added 4 tablespoons of marine salt (didn’t have plain aquarium salt) to the tank yesterday.

Pod had started swimming vertically again yesterday, which was a relief when I thought he was certainly a goner given his earlier condition. He was still hiding today, but got tempted by the food and was willing to eat some of the medication. He was happier to eat the frozen formula one, so once the Focus arrives, I’ll mix the meds together with that. Here he is after his snack…extra dark now so I know he’s not feeling well, but at least he doesn’t look like death is imminent, whew!

[PluckyD]

So after I got all the medications, I have been diligently feeding Pod Metroplex twice a day for about two weeks now but unfortunately, he is having another “episode”. He is hiding and wouldn’t eat today even after coming to greet me. 
 

Is there any point in continuing the medication? I assume he will stop eating for a few days as usual before resuming again.

[Colu]

On 10/31/2023 at 12:14 AM, PluckyD said:

So after I got all the medications, I have been diligently feeding Pod Metroplex twice a day for about two weeks now but unfortunately, he is having another “episode”. He is hiding and wouldn’t eat today even after coming to greet me. 
 

Is there any point in continuing the medication? I assume he will stop eating for a few days as usual before resuming again.

If your still having issues after two weeks I would stop  treating with metroplex have you seen any improvement while you have been treating with metroplex or noticed any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly 

[PluckyD]

On 10/30/2023 at 7:44 PM, Colu said:

If your still having issues after two weeks I would stop  treating with metroplex have you seen any improvement while you have been treating with metroplex or noticed any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly 

I have noticed no discernible effect from Metroplex. I mixed it (along with Focus and Garlic Guard) with the Ocean Nutrition Formula One frozen food and refroze it to feed him a small bit twice a day. As he recovered from his last episode, he would eat it happily (just as he eats normally). Once he starts another episode, he seems mildly interested but either won't eat it or will spit it out if he takes a bite...like a sick kid who is tempted with ice cream. As he gets worse, he will just hide and not come out for a couple of days before he feels better. 

Rapid breathing: No

Hanging out near the surface: No

Lethargy: Maybe? He hides

Flashing: No

Spitting out food: Yes, if he takes a bite, but usually he won't eat once he's in this mode

Sunken belly: I can't tell, but the previously posted pictures above are representative.

 

[jwcarlson]

I think metro is the right play, but I'd suggest getting pure metro.  

Bump the temp to 93 (you might have to QT the discus to do this), 1-2 TBS of salt per 10 gallons.  12 days of metro (dosed every day) in water not food, usually they're not actually eating when they get to this point, black out the tank.  Don't bother feeding him for at least a few days.

Discus metro dose is 500 mg pure metro per 10 gallons of water.  Again, you're probably going to want to put the discus in a separate tank.  Daily do as large of a water change that you can do and still supply stable/preheated water, wipe down sides and bottom with a paper towel at least every few days during treatment before water change, and then dose the full 500 mg/10 gallons + salt you took out for 12 days.  After the 12 days slowly bring the temp back down to your normal tank temperature.  Your discus would be absolutely fine in a bare bottom 10 gallon tank on his own during this time.  The temperature ramps up the metabolic rate, the metro is killing the hexamita, and eventually he'll start wanting to eat.  Two of my discus were very sick with hex and this metro treatment routine saved one of them and he's actually one of the bigger fish in the school now.  The other, unfortunately, was too far gone.  This sounds like classic hex in discus, by the way.  It might take the course of the full treatment + some days before the fish really starts to improve depending on how bad it is.

 

Additionally, discus, like most schooling fish are most comfortable in groups.  So it would probably be best to get him some friends.  But first, get him healthy, he is a good looking discus! 🙂 30 ppm of nitrate is also pretty high for discus and it can take awhile for poor water quality to show itself outwardly.  A lot of that can depend on your water.  If you've got nice acidic water it limits a lot of bacterial overgrowth so you can get away with less maintenance.  My water is 8.2+ pH and if I let my nitrates creep up much above 15, my discus start getting bacterial nodules on their fins.  I don't let it get beyond that.

Edited October 31, 2023 by jwcarlson

[PluckyD]

@jwcarlson Thanks for the advice.

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usually they're not actually eating when they get to this point

Can you elaborate on what "this point" means? The thing is, this happens every few weeks and then the fish goes back to eating and behaving as normal (happily eats out of my hand, etc.) after a few days and it has been like this for months now. Is that in line with what you'd expect with hexamita? 

 

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30 ppm of nitrate is also pretty high for discus

It's a planted tank and I dose easy green to get it to that level. Do you recommend going easier on the easy green?

 

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it would probably be best to get him some friends

I debated whether or not to address this comment because I suspect my response will be unpopular, but I knew it was coming and it's what many will automatically think of when they see my post. Basically, I thought long and hard before I decided to get Pod as I'm aware that a lot of general discus care say they should be in groups, but I don't have the capacity to do a multi-discus tank. I decided to give it a try when I fell in love with him at the LFS and was ready to return him if I thought he was unhappy, but aside from this specific occasional issue, he seems like a happy fish. As mentioned above, he eats readily from my hands and is very interactive.

Also, it's possible that he'd be worse off, either by getting worse care from me if I had multiples since I wouldn't be able to observe him as closely and meet his specific needs, or if he were to end up getting picked on by other fish whenever he isn't feeling well. I also think about all the times I've read, "get multiples and take any overly aggressive fish back to the fish store or keep them by themselves"...it seems like invariably, some fish that are "better off in groups" still end up with particular specimens that are better off singles. I've also experienced this with other types of fish that are supposed to be better in groups, but invariably, I end up with just one in a given tank for one reason or another, e.g. because the most aggressive ends up killing off the rest, or one is getting bullied by the rest, or some other situation. That being said, I'm not recommending this to anyone else or advocating for people to keep shoaling/schooling fish as singles. I am still experimenting and would make changes for him if I thought I could make things better for him, even if it meant giving him away.

[jwcarlson]

Regarding "this point", mine did the same with the on/off.  My guess is weakening a bit overtime.  What I realized was even when they looked like they were eating, they actually weren't or at least not as much as it looked d like they were. 

Consider the fish's social side of life as also part of its physical well-being.  If an animal is hard wired for survival and a crucial part of that is being part of a school, it will undoubtedly be detrimental to its well-being to be without that part of the equation.  I am not at all saying that this is the cause of the ailment, but I think we'd all agree that it certainly doesn't help.  So it's possible that some of the hiding is related to being stressed, but there's no real way to quantify that.  Part of responsible fish keeping is keeping fish within your means.  I waited 20 years to get discus because I knew I wouldn't be able to properly care for them when I was younger. 

Please don't take this as me being mean, that isn't the intent.  Just an observation that expecting a fish to thrive when basic needs are not met can be problematic.

Regarding your fertilizer levels, what is your water change routine like? You say weekly or every other, but what percent are you changing? 

[PluckyD]

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Regarding "this point", mine did the same with the on/off.  My guess is weakening a bit overtime.  What I realized was even when they looked like they were eating, they actually weren't or at least not as much as it looked d like they were. 

I see, good to know. He *does* look like he's eating and he has grown from about 2.25 inches to over 4, but I suppose he could be even bigger given that I've had him over 6 months, but it's hard to say. If it helps to gauge appetite, he will eat any and all pond snails I squish for him until I get tired of squishing them, which is generally half a dozen to a dozen a day.

 

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Consider the fish's social side of life as also part of its physical well-being.  If an animal is hard wired for survival and a crucial part of that is being part of a school, it will undoubtedly be detrimental to its well-being to be without that part of the equation. 

I agree with this assessment. However, the other components I've considered are, if I never purchased him in the first place or take him back to the LFS, is someone with multiple discus actually going to purchase him to provide him with a social life? My LFS completely supports keeping discus as singles, so I can imagine taking him back won't necessarily mean a better life. And if I get more discus to keep with him, it just seems like I increase the number of discus I may inadvertently do harm to. I'm not sure if I am conveying my meaning adequately. Of course, regardless, you could argue I'm just making excuses, which I cannot deny. I could easily argue against keeping him as well, but as I said, I made the decision to try this. As Cory says, dogs are also pack animals, but many people end up just keeping one, and no one would say they shouldn't get a dog unless they can keep a pack. 

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Please don't take this as me being mean, that isn't the intent.

Not at all, I appreciate your patience in explaining your point of view, as well as sharing your tips on treatment.

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what is your water change routine like

I change 25-40%. I acknowledge this is not ideal by-the-book discus-keeping standards 😓

[jwcarlson]

My experience with hex was it seemed really up/down for awhile and then the bottom dropped out.  Considering the symptoms, I'd do the metro course.  Metro is quite easy on discus, it certainly won't hurt.  When he's eating snails he is doing this during his hiding and "down" periods?  Discus can be really picky if you let them.  It sounds like he has grown pretty well considering. 

 

[PluckyD]

On 10/31/2023 at 11:54 AM, jwcarlson said:

wipe down sides and bottom with a paper towel at least every few days during treatment before water change

Can you elaborate on the purpose of the paper towel wiping routine?

I am in the middle of moving and cannot commit to doing a 12 day treatment right now but will plan to do it once settled at my new place. In the meantime, I will continue to feed him the medicated food once he is willing to eat again, unless there’s a reason I shouldn’t.

On 10/31/2023 at 5:28 PM, jwcarlson said:

Discus can be really picky if you let them.

Yes, he is picky indeed! He’s willing to eat more than bloodworms now, but it’s been a journey.

 

On 10/31/2023 at 5:28 PM, jwcarlson said:

When he's eating snails he is doing this during his hiding and "down" periods?

When he is hiding and down, he is not eating anything at all as far as I can tell. He enjoys the snails when he is feeling well enough to eat.

[jwcarlson]

The paper towel routine is simply to remove all the biofilm and organic buildup that you can.  These organic loads can deminish medications effectiveness.  Additionally, anytime you are worming anything, you want to siphon as completely as you can.  Impossible to do with substrate, really.  But it's always impossible to get 100% of anything.  You're trying to be sure you remove as much of the parasite load as you possibly can. 

The other side effect is that the fish with be in pristine/optimal water and that's always a good thing for recovery.  

I don't know if feeding the medicated food is good or bad if his eating is hit and miss.  It's tough to know how much he may or may not be getting.  I would guess it's unlikely to hurt, but it's possible some sort of longer term metro exposure might be detrimental, but again, I would guess not.  You can try the heat and salt independently from metro.  My experience was the fish would get a bit better, but as soon as I took the temp down they'd eventually end up worse.  Overall discus really seem to love warm water.  I though they would be stressed at 93 but they seemed to love it.  I still keep mine at 85 unless I am leaving for a week, then I will drop to 82.

Edited November 1, 2023 by jwcarlson

[PluckyD]

Ah, ok, I follow you on the paper towel thing then. Given the intended purpose, I wonder if it would be more effective to just have two buckets that I toggle between such that I have a clean bucket with prepared water and move the fish over entirely and prepare the “used” bucket to be ready for the next day, thereby accomplishing 100% water change. I only have 5 gallon buckets so of course there is less volume, but if I’m not feeding, then it seems like it shouldn’t much matter. It sounds stressful for the fish to be honest, but then so does moving him to a significantly smaller tank and then water changing heavily every day.

[jwcarlson]

Discus love nothing more then fresh clean water. When I do a water change they're laying on their sides when it's over.  It doesn't bother them at all. 

Make sure you dechlorinate.  Your bucket idea would probably work, but would be tough to observe.  If you were worried about volume you could get a tote of slightly bigger size.  Some have transparent sides. 

[PluckyD]

Just wanted to post an update. After moving, I did the quarantine treatment with Metroplex for a full 13 days (one extra day just in case), and also one day with Expel-P. I fed lightly about a week into the meds and I did 100% water change each day by switching between cleaned totes. 
 

After returning Pod to his tank, he seemed normal and ate as usual, etc. Alas, after about 2 weeks, he did his hiding thing yesterday and today is dark and stressed. He seems to be passing a weird poop again. 

 

[Colu]

As metroplex has had a discernable effect and you have only done one course of levamisole what I would do is follow @odd Ducks  treatment protocol for parasitic infections treating with levamisole and praziquantel I would get holed of prazipro is the liquid form of praziquantel 

[jwcarlson]

@PluckyD the whole tank should probably be wormed with levamisole (see above).  Alternatively,a long-time discus breeder suggested to me some time ago a course of levamisole as follows...

A 24 hour levamisole treatment on day 1, day 5, and day 13.
I also recommend keeping aquarium salt in and during treatment add also epsom salt at 1tbs per 10G.

Levamisole dose is 90mg/10 gallons for 24 hours with as big of water change as you can do after the 24 hours including full wipe down of sides and bottom, vacuuming everything out.  Levamisole dosage should be ~2 ppm... a ppm is a milligram per liter.  90 mg/37.85 liters (10 gallons) = 2.4 ppm.  Including this if it helps you calculate dosage somehow on your tote.

Edit to add this calculator I found: Levamisole Dosage Calculator (geocities.ws)

I've had good luck with this with my discus.  Be warned that levamisole can turn them off of food for awhile, so be cautious feeding.

Edited January 3 by jwcarlson

[PluckyD]

Thank you @Colu and @jwcarlson. However, I have treated Pod with a total of 7 rounds of levamisole at this point and 3 times with Prazi. Basically, I had noticed a betta with camallanus and subsequently treated all my tanks with levamisole simultaneously. I realized that Pod had tons of them even though he had no visible symptoms (aside from this recurring hiding behavior). He took 4 rounds to clear, but I did 2 additional rounds of levamisole just to be sure. This last levamisole treatment I did in the QT tank was just to make sure I had indeed cleared the camallanus worms that he had several months ago. I saw no evidence of any worms in the tub after treatment. I also treated all tanks multiple times with PraziPro when I noticed a mysterious leech-esque parasite in one of my hillstream loaches. This is in addition to the med-trio routine I do for all new fish.

[jwcarlson]

@PluckyD Do you have an overall picture of the tank?  What's the substrate?  It's basically impossible to get all of the eggs cleaned up if there's any appreciable substrate.  I've noticed that even in my bare bottom tank, the fish that I observe eating off of the bottom most are the ones that have this recurring issue (assuming they eat some pop from another fish with worms and start the whole cycle over again).  I've actually got one discus right now that isn't eating well and has started to lose weight.  Even with quarantined fish that have been wormed in their own aquariums, it seems like every time I introduce another fish... I have one of my discus with worms a few months later.  I don't think you can ever eliminate all parasites, but the population and health can be managed such that they are not actively causing systems in the fish.  But then some stressor occurs and that allows them to get a foothold.  Additionally, like humans and other animals, immune systems will vary by individual.

In other words, it's likely that the problem is systemic/endemic.  If the treatments aren't done to more/less perfection, it's just shuffling the problem off for a couple more weeks.  I did levamisole incorrectly the first few times I dosed it and while it probably didn't "hurt" anything, it didn't necessarily provide the punch that it should have.  And that's me speaking from experience, please don't take that as me calling you out or anything like that.  That's one of my biggest complaints about discus.  Or at least the discus I have.  I'm willing to take some blame here as the fish keeper... but the amount of time and energy I have put into them compared to any other fish I have owned combined is insane.  I've had them just short of two years and I have done probably 650 water changes on them.  I backed down to 2-3x a week everything looks fine until two of them have bacterial nodules in their heads burst and I'm still fighting that little gift.  Anyway, I'm digressing.

Have you noticed any flashing in your fish?

In some discussions I've had with discus people about my repeat worm issues some have suggested I consider Absolute Wormer, which I think contains flubendezole, which I think can have some other side effects that aren't great.  Tail standing was mentioned as a possible problem.  

Not sure where you'd buy it, but here's an information page: Absolute Wormer+ (cloverleaf.uk.net)