Is my new tank big enough?

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I would keep a rotation of prepared foods 2-3 foods Hikari, Tetra and Extreme are the brands of prepared foods I feed. In the UK you’ve got some other foods like Aquarian and the one on the yellow bottle can’t remember the name. Anyway those and some occasional live or frozen foods are great. In summer, mosquito larvae are a good one. Check your outdoor pots! Yes once a day is just fine. I’d keep it to a small pinch. Since they’re brand new to the tank and you’re keeping they may just not be familiar with these foods and it may take them a minute to figure out what that stuff floating is. Yes, remove the uneaten foods. I often when doing fish In cycling would feed then an hour later change the water. Until they settle in no need to change the feeding regimen and in fact a consistent feeding regimen is part of your plant fertilization as well speaking of ….

You can’t have too many plants. Especially when you’re Cycling a tank they absorb the excess ammonia, nitrogenous wastes and provide oxygen as well. It’s a game changer really in the fish keeping world. I started 37 years ago with a 30 g hexagonal tank with no plants and African cichlids. To think how far we’ve come!!

Keeping up with a daily water change, extra oxygen with an air stone and light feeding I think you’ll do well. No need to add ferts if you’ve got ammonia in the tank right now. Once the ammonia goes to zero, you’ve got no nitrites, and some trace nitrates you could consider adding back in some ferts. Keep having fun and let us know how it’s going!

[BenJames3445]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:46 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

I would keep a rotation of prepared foods 2-3 foods Hikari, Tetra and Extreme are the brands of prepared foods I feed. In the UK you’ve got some other foods like Aquarian and the one on the yellow bottle can’t remember the name. Anyway those and some occasional live or frozen foods are great. In summer, mosquito larvae are a good one. Check your outdoor pots! Yes once a day is just fine. I’d keep it to a small pinch. Since they’re brand new to the tank and you’re keeping they may just not be familiar with these foods and it may take them a minute to figure out what that stuff floating is. Yes, remove the uneaten foods. I often when doing fish In cycling would feed then an hour later change the water. Until they settle in no need to change the feeding regimen and in fact a consistent feeding regimen is part of your plant fertilization as well speaking of ….

You can’t have too many plants. Especially when you’re Cycling a tank they absorb the excess ammonia, nitrogenous wastes and provide oxygen as well. It’s a game changer really in the fish keeping world. I started 37 years ago with a 30 g hexagonal tank with no plants and African cichlids. To think how far we’ve come!!

Keeping up with a daily water change, extra oxygen with an air stone and light feeding I think you’ll do well. No need to add ferts if you’ve got ammonia in the tank right now. Once the ammonia goes to zero, you’ve got no nitrites, and some trace nitrates you could consider adding back in some ferts. Keep having fun and let us know how it’s going!

Look at that tank! Gorgeous 😍

Appreciate the advice as well, I'll be revisiting this thread many times to read over the information that everyone has provided 🙂

[BenJames3445]

I've unfortunately hit my first hiccup 🙁

Most of the fish seem to be doing really well, apart from one of the females (see attached video & photos)

She seems quite bloated, and is largely just hanging around the filter intake by herself. Seems to be becoming more & more prone to being isolated & kind of treading water by herself as the day wore on.

Completed a water change today, and the ammonia is at .50 or below (will keep doing daily changes).

I've fed the fish twice in two days (and a minimal amount at that) so I don't think she'd be bloated.

I've added Prime to the remaining volume of the tank as a precaution.

I've been looking online, and it seems as though it may be dropsy?

Is there anything I can do besides the water changes & monitoring the parameters?

Wasn't expecting to hit a snag like this within two days of bringing the fish home 😔

If she's ill, does she pose a health risk to the tankmates?

 

Sorry, that gif is awful

I tried to upload a video from my iPhone, but it wasn't a valid format

[Lennie]

On 7/3/2023 at 2:44 PM, BenJames3445 said:

I tried to upload a video from my iPhone, but it wasn't a valid format

You should upload your video to your youtube account, whether listed or unlisted, and share the link here. The link automatically appears as video here.

 

your fish does not look that bloated to me. Have you been observing any sort of agression, or males bullying females too much? Females also usually carry eggs which makes their belly bigger and more round.  Also when barbs change environment, they may go for establishing the pecking order so it may be a lil stressful I guess.

Also that seems like a calm place in the tank. Barbs can handle the flow but it doesn't mean constantly being pushed around in the tank. Make sure that's not the case.

Dropsy comes with pineconing look, fish extremely bloated, in my experience they were very inactive, gasping and hiding all the time. Dropsy can be bacterial but can also be caused by organ failure and stuff. They look like this 

Just in case, I'm tagging @Colu

 

Also try to feed one time and quite low amount until your cycle is established. Twice a day for now is way too much considering your tank is not cycled. Just a very small pinch once a day should do okay. Even once every two days would be what I do. Healthy fish can go many days without any food given.

[BenJames3445]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:56 PM, Lennie said:

You should upload your video to your youtube account, whether listed or unlisted, and share the link here. The link automatically appears as video here.

 

your fish does not look that bloated to me. Have you been observing any sort of agression, or males bullying females too much? Females also usually carry eggs which makes their belly bigger and more round.  Also when barbs change environment, they may go for establishing the pecking order so it may be a lil stressful I guess.

Also that seems like a calm place in the tank. Barbs can handle the flow but it doesn't mean constantly being pushed around in the tank. Make sure that's not the case.

Dropsy comes with pineconing look, fish extremely bloated, in my experience they were very inactive, gasping and hiding all the time. Dropsy can be bacterial but can also be caused by organ failure and stuff. They look like this 

Just in case, I'm tagging @Colu

 

Also try to feed one time and quite low amount until your cycle is established. Twice a day for now is way too much considering your tank is not cycled. Just a very small pinch once a day should do okay. Even once every two days would be what I do. Healthy fish can go many days without any food given.

Hi Lennie,

Thank you for the quick response!

Sorry, when I said I fed them twice in two days, I meant I fed them once a day, over two days. Absolutely, will be feeding at a max once daily going forward!

Males have been chasing the females around quite a bit, but they're largely leaving this particular fish alone now (as she's hanging around the top of the tank by herself).

Her belly is at least twice as big as the other females, who are quite slimline in comparison

I've attached the video so you can see how she's behaving

Are they too young to produce eggs?

And would that happen within two days of them being in the tank?

 

[Lennie]

Is she gasping for air, trying to breathe on the surface?

If so, It is likely from ammonia or nitrite I think. Other options can be parasites, and lack of oxygen. 

Given you have ammonia and probably nitrites in the tank, that might be it.

Ammonia poisioning signs are as follows:

• Increased mucous production
• Red or bleeding gills
• Body colour darkens
• Increased respiration rates and fish seem to “gasp” air at the surface of the water
• Secondary infections
• Death

https://www.birdexoticsvet.com.au/fishamphibians/2020/6/9/treating-ammonia-toxicity-in-an-aquarium-or-fish-pond

 

Nitrite poisoning signs are as follows ( which I tend to think this is the case):

• Their Gills May Turn Brown
• The Fish Appear Dark Or Pale
• Trouble Breathing
• Rubbing Against Objects

 

https://www.bettacarefishguide.com/nitrite-poisoning-in-fish-how-to-reduce-nitrites/

 

Do you observe such symptoms irl? This is not a bloating issue but rather one of these above I believe. When Colu comes online, he may help further as he is more experienced with diseases and symptoms

[BenJames3445]

On 7/3/2023 at 10:42 PM, Lennie said:

Is she gasping for air, trying to breathe on the surface?

If so, It is likely from ammonia or nitrite I think. Other options can be parasites, and lack of oxygen. 

Given you have ammonia and probably nitrites in the tank, that might be it.

Ammonia poisioning signs are as follows:

• Increased mucous production
• Red or bleeding gills
• Body colour darkens
• Increased respiration rates and fish seem to “gasp” air at the surface of the water
• Secondary infections
• Death

https://www.birdexoticsvet.com.au/fishamphibians/2020/6/9/treating-ammonia-toxicity-in-an-aquarium-or-fish-pond

 

Nitrite poisoning signs are as follows ( which I tend to think this is the case):

• Their Gills May Turn Brown
• The Fish Appear Dark Or Pale
• Trouble Breathing
• Rubbing Against Objects

 

https://www.bettacarefishguide.com/nitrite-poisoning-in-fish-how-to-reduce-nitrites/

 

Do you observe such symptoms irl? This is not a bloating issue but rather one of these above I believe. When Colu comes online, he may help further as he is more experienced with diseases and symptoms

Hey Lennie,

Appreciate the help!

I haven't observed her go up to the surface for air once, but I thought I did notice some red on one side of her belly.

I've got to go into the office tomorrow, but I'll observe & feed a little in the morning and will do another water change & round of Stability when I get home

I'll do some water testing the following morning

I'll post an update on the progress (fingers crossed for positive 🤞)

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/3/2023 at 4:44 AM, BenJames3445 said:

I tried to upload a video from my iPhone, but it wasn't a valid format

Try sending it to YouTube then linking it. (I see you got it up there so that's cool)

On 7/3/2023 at 4:44 AM, BenJames3445 said:

If she's ill, does she pose a health risk to the tankmates?

If you're talking something contagious yes, but I don't know that this would be something that is. It could be anything from bacterial issues internally all the way to internal worms. The usual comment here about QT and the meds that aquarium coop recommends in addition to salt can be used to full effect.

The video what I can see is just a barb sitting in flow but it might be too much flow and stressing her out a little.  You can pretty much dump in as much aeration as you feel like in this tank and the barbs would be happy as they can with it. So if you can, turn the flow down slightly, but also add an air stone just for the sake of this fish sitting in the oxygenated water. If you feel like you've already got enough bubbles going into the tank, I understand. That's just what I see.

If you need to isolate this fish and proceed with treatment.  I would start with the salt, air, catappa leaf if possible, and the maracyn. It may do nothing, but at least you'll be able to proceed towards something like internal worm treatments (paracleanse) with a little bit of confidence of the thorough job.

If you opt for an Epsom salt bath for this fish, just avoid using aquarium salt right now. Focus on the aeration and clean water when doing the epsom baths.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

This just looks like a slightly stressed very typical appearing female cherry barb. The belly looks well fed and full of eggs. 

[BenJames3445]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:36 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Try sending it to YouTube then linking it. (I see you got it up there so that's cool)

If you're talking something contagious yes, but I don't know that this would be something that is. It could be anything from bacterial issues internally all the way to internal worms. The usual comment here about QT and the meds that aquarium coop recommends in addition to salt can be used to full effect.

The video what I can see is just a barb sitting in flow but it might be too much flow and stressing her out a little.  You can pretty much dump in as much aeration as you feel like in this tank and the barbs would be happy as they can with it. So if you can, turn the flow down slightly, but also add an air stone just for the sake of this fish sitting in the oxygenated water. If you feel like you've already got enough bubbles going into the tank, I understand. That's just what I see.

If you need to isolate this fish and proceed with treatment.  I would start with the salt, air, catappa leaf if possible, and the maracyn. It may do nothing, but at least you'll be able to proceed towards something like internal worm treatments (paracleanse) with a little bit of confidence of the thorough job.

If you opt for an Epsom salt bath for this fish, just avoid using aquarium salt right now. Focus on the aeration and clean water when doing the epsom baths.

Hi again 🙂

I've turned the flow down a little bit. Does that affect the amount of filtration? I was doing a bunch of reading about litres per hour for a 190L tank

That's a whole new kettle of fish (excuse the pun 😅) in terms of medicating a fish. I'm not even sure I'd have the resources to do that. Could be tricky as I have no cycled tank or anything to take from in setting it up. Will look into it!
 

On 7/4/2023 at 1:33 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

This just looks like a slightly stressed very typical appearing female cherry barb. The belly looks well fed and full of eggs. 

This was her this morning (the red I was mentioning)

[BenJames3445]

Since I've been home all of the fish have been great, and I can't spot any with this red irritation. No fish hanging around at the top, acting strangely etc.

Did another water change, and added more Stability

I can only count 5 females (there were 6 originally)

It's possible that I'm struggling to see them all at once, as there's plenty of hiding places for them

In a worst case scenario, do fish that have died float? I don't think it could have happened that quickly, but I've looked everywhere (without moving any decorations) and I can't see the remains of a fish

I don't see how the irritation could have healed over 8 hours, and there are no signs of strange behaviour from any of the females

I'm a bit stumped...

[Lennie]

What’s that red area on her belly 🤔 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/4/2023 at 3:44 AM, BenJames3445 said:

That's a whole new kettle of fish (excuse the pun 😅) in terms of medicating a fish. I'm not even sure I'd have the resources to do that. Could be tricky as I have no cycled tank or anything to take from in setting it up. Will look into it!

Start here to get an idea of the process.

 

On 7/4/2023 at 3:44 AM, BenJames3445 said:

I've turned the flow down a little bit. Does that affect the amount of filtration? I was doing a bunch of reading about litres per hour for a 190L tank

It affects the contact time on the media... Good thing. It will reduce some surface movement, but not anything too crazy.

On 7/4/2023 at 3:49 AM, BenJames3445 said:

I'm a bit stumped...

@Colu@ @Odd Duck any ideas on this?

Maybe a substrate or hardscape irritation or some sort of internal damage?

On 7/3/2023 at 8:33 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

This just looks like a slightly stressed very typical appearing female cherry barb. The belly looks well fed and full of eggs. 

See the photo above. May have progressed. I agree originally it might have just been egg bound but the video showed a lot of stress. Maybe the eggs are stuck?

Edited July 4, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@nabokovfan87Ive seen egg bound cherries and that’s not one. I agree very stressed! The red could be an abrasion or the start of sepsis - small reddened capillaries like that are called petechiae. I would hunt for the body if you’re only seeing 5 of 6.  Typically I look for brown to orange to red tones in the flesh of the body, bold brown stripes vertically and some red on all the fins. Other than the petechiae on the abdomen that fish is looking quite good from a comportment standpoint.
 

Turning down the flow is fine as long as you have additional oxygenation which you do with an air stone.
 

I think holding on tight, keeping up on the water changes and watching your Parameters daily and you’ll get through this. I think that the medication that Irene mentions in the video would be difficult to find in the UK. I would consider if that fish is still alive the addition of a teaspoon of aquarium or reef salt for every 10 gallons. If that fish has expired and everyone else is looking good I’d not do it. 
 

When breeders ship fish in the US they often sell +1 meaning you buy 12 we’ll give you one free. The reason is exactly this every fish reacts differently to a new circumstance. You picked a group of typically hardy fish out of which one example has become sickly. Personally if that fish is alive I’d euthanize it and move on if it at all is showing illness still. Cold but you’ve got the collective to think about.  If I’ve got 5 other healthy fish out of the batch I just accept and move on. That’s my mantra in the hobby actually, learn, accept and move on. This is the first of many things that will come up. As the tank matures there will be more potential issues. It’s ok, they come and go and hopefully your love of the hobby will sustain you as you move through them. 
 

Have fun and let us know how we can help. 

[Colu]

Looks like an injury or a bacterial infections if it turns up and still has the red area to its belly I would start treating with kanaplex or maracyn2 add an extra air stone during treatment as medication lowers the level of desloved oxygen in the tank @BenJames3445

[BenJames3445]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delayed response!

Unfortunately I found her dead tucked under the roots of the anubias tied to the driftwood. I was searching for a day or so, and it wasn't until I took the wood out of the water that I caught a glimpse.

Thank you for all of your efforts in trying to help me, but with a newbie like me I suspect she may have been doomed the moment she left the shop

In terms of the survivors, is there some sort of treatment I should do to the water? Or will the continual water changes, prime & stability be sufficient?

Would hate to think that whatever afflicted her could impact the others as well

Thank you all for your help, I'd have been absolutely nowhere without all of you 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/6/2023 at 5:04 AM, BenJames3445 said:

Thank you for all of your efforts in trying to help me, but with a newbie like me I suspect she may have been doomed the moment she left the shop

In terms of the survivors, is there some sort of treatment I should do to the water? Or will the continual water changes, prime & stability be sufficient?

Sometimes it happens. Please don't think that just because the fish went home and you're learning, that is the cause. Fish are extremely stressed prior to arrival at the store and sometimes that stress can have a delayed impact. We've all lost fish due to issues and it's one of those situations where trying to improve moving forward is the motivation for change. No one is perfect, not even the amazing fish we find.

For now, you can do water changes to keep things clean. Do a good size water change, a good clean on the substrate and filtration and just make sure everything is ok.  Monitor the tank and the rest of the fish for issues. If anything fed off the body it could spread disease or something may have been released into the water.

This would be the same treatments as mentioned above in that case.

On 7/6/2023 at 5:04 AM, BenJames3445 said:

Thank you all for your help, I'd have been absolutely nowhere without all of you 🙂

Seriously, welcome to the forums and happy to have you. Without new hobbyists it isn't a hobby and it's just something we all do until we don't anymore.  It's great to have new inspiration and new eyes into everything. Sometimes that helps everyone see things from a different perspective.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Great points from @nabokovfan87. Nothing else to add other than keep your head up and have fun! 

[BenJames3445]

Hi everyone!

Just thought I'd post a quick update, as it was a bit glib the last time I posted.

Happy to report that the rest of the fish seem to be happy and healthy (touch wood!) even if the males are spending what seems like all of their time chasing the females around. I've done a bit of reading and it seems as though this is typical behaviour. The females have got plenty of spots to hide, and don't seem to be stressed or anything like that

The water parameters are at a stable 0 ammonia & nitrite, and around 5ppm Nitrate. I've reduced testing now to a couple of times a week, as it all seems to have leveled out. So positive news there also!

I've been thinking over which fish I want to buy, and I think I've settled on what I'd like to add:

 

8x Cherry Barb (current)

8x Redtail Rasbora

1x Siamese Algae Eater

6x Kuhli Loaches (New on the list!)

6x Melon Barb

I think I'll add the Rasboras, then the SAE & Kuhlis together, then decide if I want to opt for the Melons or not

The one thing I wanted to seek advice on is the quarantining. I added a sponge filter in place of the airstone about a week ago, so I can pop that into the quarantine tank when I set it up.

The only thing is that from what I've been reading, that needs to be in there for a couple more weeks at least to seed. Then it seems that a 4-week quarantine is the minimum that people recommend to ensure that the existing fish in the tank will be safe from any underlying infection.

6 weeks is going to feel like an eternity to add more fish into the tank!

Just wondering if anyone has any tips around quarantining fish, the timeframes that you typically stick to, and any other helpful information.

Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks everyone!

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:27 AM, BenJames3445 said:

6 weeks is going to feel like an eternity to add more fish into the tank!

Just wondering if anyone has any tips around quarantining fish, the timeframes that you typically stick to, and any other helpful information.

There are some hobbyists that don't recommend less than a 3 month QT!

Ultimately there is a lot of information out there and the general guideline is from a few week, but more likely right around the one month mark. In my case, given the ability to QT fish, I would do so as long as possible just to be able to treat with any preventative medications and ensure fish health and acclimation. 

Given the setup here and your fish list, I would bring in everything except the kuhli loaches. Get 2-3 extra of each type of nano fish, your single SAE, and just go through QT with those fish.  After a week of observation, dose in aquarium salt and monitor for another week. Then you'd treat for internal parasites at a minimum. This is going to be ~3 treatments minimum and they will occur over several weeks. (Now that 6 week window makes sense!) The meds for this is typically paracleanse and expel-p. Note that one of them is light sensitive as well.

You can start with meds on the first week of arrival, it's entirely up to you, but the general layout of everything would be the above method.

Treating for bacterial infection is a generally good idea as well, the typical medication being Erythromycin/Maracyn.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

If the filter has been in an established tank for a week it’s pretty well seeded. You can also squeeze out media from your other filter as well. 

In general, you’re checking parameters daily so you’ll notice if things are changing. 

Ask your fish store what their quarantine is like, are they medicating fish, and then follow the recommendations from @nabokovfan87if you can. Some Of the meds aren’t available in the UK or commonwealth countries. If that’s the case aquarium salt and what you can get your hands on will determine what QT looks like. 

[BenJames3445]

On 7/18/2023 at 3:59 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

There are some hobbyists that don't recommend less than a 3 month QT!

Ultimately there is a lot of information out there and the general guideline is from a few week, but more likely right around the one month mark. In my case, given the ability to QT fish, I would do so as long as possible just to be able to treat with any preventative medications and ensure fish health and acclimation. 

Given the setup here and your fish list, I would bring in everything except the kuhli loaches. Get 2-3 extra of each type of nano fish, your single SAE, and just go through QT with those fish.  After a week of observation, dose in aquarium salt and monitor for another week. Then you'd treat for internal parasites at a minimum. This is going to be ~3 treatments minimum and they will occur over several weeks. (Now that 6 week window makes sense!) The meds for this is typically paracleanse and expel-p. Note that one of them is light sensitive as well.

You can start with meds on the first week of arrival, it's entirely up to you, but the general layout of everything would be the above method.

Treating for bacterial infection is a generally good idea as well, the typical medication being Erythromycin/Maracyn.

3 Months! That's commitment right there 😂

Appreciate the tips! Being in Australia, I'll have to see if those products are available here.

Would there be concerns around adding that many fish to a fairly small quarantine tank (40L I'm thinking) for ammonia & nitrite levels (as well as adding that many fish to the tank at once after quarantine)?

 

 

On 7/18/2023 at 11:40 AM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

If the filter has been in an established tank for a week it’s pretty well seeded. You can also squeeze out media from your other filter as well. 

In general, you’re checking parameters daily so you’ll notice if things are changing. 

Ask your fish store what their quarantine is like, are they medicating fish, and then follow the recommendations from @nabokovfan87if you can. Some Of the meds aren’t available in the UK or commonwealth countries. If that’s the case aquarium salt and what you can get your hands on will determine what QT looks like. 

Okay, awesome!

I was thinking I'll set up the quarantine tank this weekend, and buy the first batch of fish mid-week.

I'll definitely ask the fish stores as well, thanks for that!

One thing I wanted to ask you all was about the males

I keep spotting them spinning around in circles, which seems to be some sort of fighting.

They look as though they are nipping at each other, but it doesn't seem as though they've been harmed

Is this something I should be concerned about? Or is that pretty standard among Cherry Barbs?

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

once you put in a seeded filter you’ll need to ghost feed the tank once in the next day or so to feed the bacteria until you get your fish. 
 

Standard in terms Of cherry barbs  is sparring. You may need to add a couple more females if the males are not chasing the females. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/18/2023 at 6:04 AM, BenJames3445 said:

Would there be concerns around adding that many fish to a fairly small quarantine tank (40L I'm thinking) for ammonia & nitrite levels (as well as adding that many fish to the tank at once after quarantine)?

You could always use a tote or do one school at a time. There's a risk yes of adding too much at once and causing harm in that sense.

[BenJames3445]

Appreciate the ghost feeding tip @Beardedbillygoat1975!

After one of the females died the ratio right now is 3:5

I'm thinking of buying 2 more females to make it 3:7, which is much more in line with what people suggest (1:2 to 1:3)

I was also thinking of going to 12, with 4 males & 8 females. I'm a bit over the males & their antics, so would adding another one make that less or more prevalent?

If I'm adding additional Cherries I'm going to alter the approach a bit. I think I'm going to ditch the second barb type, and just go for larger groups of the other fish. Something like:

 

10-12 Cherry Barbs
12 Red Tail Rasboras
6-8 Kuhli Loaches (depending on Barb number)
1 Siamese Algae Eater

I'm thinking the larger groups would be a better approach, rather than going the minimums (seems like they all say 6) of each fish type.

Sweet, thanks @nabokovfan87!

I think I'll go for quarantining the Red Tail Rasbora, the additional Cherry Barbs & potentially the SAE. I'll likely go for a larger quarantine tub to accommodate that, and begin that next week. Get the Kuhli's quarantining by themselves once those fish are in and are producing a bit more waste & their assistance with cleaning a bit is required.

Exciting!!