20 gallon long planted community

[smm333]

Update: I picked up 11 Emerald dwarf rasbora today. They aren't super colorful yet, but they will definately be worth the wait! I also ordered a breeding pair of CPO Mexican dwarf crayfish. I was going to get shrimp, but decided to try the crayfish since I haven't yet.  They are supposed to be pretty peaceful and will leave my fish alone. They also help with cleaning the tank! Definately going to figure out a lid before they arrive! 

[Lennie]

On 6/15/2023 at 7:11 AM, smm333 said:

Update: I picked up 11 Emerald dwarf rasbora today. They aren't super colorful yet, but they will definately be worth the wait! I also ordered a breeding pair of CPO Mexican dwarf crayfish. I was going to get shrimp, but decided to try the crayfish since I haven't yet.  They are supposed to be pretty peaceful and will leave my fish alone. They also help with cleaning the tank! Definately going to figure out a lid before they arrive! 

Nice

 

Idk if you know it, but as far as I know, mexican oranges are endangered species and they are on the red list. So keeping them requires an extra responsibility in my personal opinion. Hope you can breed them and help them to continue their population. Would be nice to see some babies  they are very cute

On 6/15/2023 at 7:11 AM, smm333 said:

They aren't super colorful yet, but they will definately be worth the wait!

Fish go through amazin colorations with a good care.

The day I got my honey gourami:

 

Him now:

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/14/2023 at 8:46 PM, smm333 said:

Rili 125.3 and Blue 196.9. I'm surprised by the difference! The rili tank has a lowe TDS. I started the blues at a higher TDS because I tested the water they came in and tried to raise mine a bit closer to theirs.

Both GH seems ok. Blue is definitely creeping too high eventually, but it should be ok right now.

The reds should be ok. 120 is about right on the Lowest you want to see it. 6 degrees is the bottom, 7-9 being a bit safer.

This is why TDS is extremely dangerous to rely on for shrimp. If the species needs "soft water" it is usually referring to a specific KH and GH range, not simply a TDS. More often than not it's tied to PH/KH for fish. For shrimp through, PH matters a little bit less.... It still matters.... But having a good GH for them keeps them from having issues.  I have a TDS pen, I don't use it. I couldn't even tell you what the "right value" is.

The ONLY use a TDS pen has for me is if I am specifically mixing water for water changes. I know the starting TDS, I know the range/target TDS based on the buffer I am using, and I know that the buffer has the right ratio because it is specifically designed for shrimp water preparation.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[smm333]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:01 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Both GH seems ok. Blue is definitely creeping too high eventually, but it should be ok right now.

The reds should be ok. 120 is about right on the Lowest you want to see it. 6 degrees is the bottom, 7-9 being a bit safer.

This is why TDS is extremely dangerous to rely on for shrimp. If the species needs "soft water" it is usually referring to a specific KH and GH range, not simply a TDS. More often than not it's tied to PH/KH for fish. For shrimp through, PH matters a little bit less.... It still matters.... But having a good GH for them keeps them from having issues.  I have a TDS pen, I don't use it. I couldn't even tell you what the "right value" is.

The ONLY use a TDS pen has for me is if I am specifically mixing water for water changes. I know the starting TDS, I know the range/target TDS based on the buffer I am using, and I know that the buffer has the right ratio because it is specifically designed for shrimp water preparation.

Hopefully that helps.

 

Thank you! Definately helpful. When researching shrimp I focused on the remineralized water since my well water never kept them alive. I guess I will focus on the Gh! Should a simple water change help with the blues? I have only done very small water changes because of all the babies!

[smm333]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:46 AM, Lennie said:

Nice

 

Idk if you know it, but as far as I know, mexican oranges are endangered species and they are on the red list. So keeping them requires an extra responsibility in my personal opinion. Hope you can breed them and help them to continue their population. Would be nice to see some babies  they are very cute

Fish go through amazin colorations with a good care.

The day I got my honey gourami:

 

Him now:

I have been binging on everything I can find on YouTube about the dwarf crayfish.  I did hear 6hey are endangered due to invasive species . So sad.

Gorgeous honey gourami! I have 3. They are my favorite! So pretty and graceful!

[Schuyler]

On 6/14/2023 at 9:03 PM, smm333 said:

My lfs had Mexican Dwarf Crayfish a few months ago in Olympia Washington! Maybe its illegal to ship to different states? I know that all apple snails have that rule. I can sell spixis but can't ship them across state lines.

Hey that's my LFS too! I've actually sold some Killifish to them.

Cory has talked about crayfish being illegal in WA but some stores still carry them. The thing is that the WAC bans them at the family level and the department of natural resources website for looking up prohibited species doesn't pull up anything when you search by the species name. WAC 220-640-050 (3)(b): "The following species are classified as prohibited level 3 species: ... Family Cambaridae: Crayfish: All genera"

https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-640-050

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:33 AM, smm333 said:

Should a simple water change help with the blues? I have only done very small water changes because of all the babies!

How much water and how often?

For me, this is one of the most misunderstood things I see from anyone keeping shrimp. Dilution is a shrimps friend.  From the start of keeping shrimp there are a plethora of videos and resources from breeders that specify what is "the correct way" and what is "the only way" to care for them. I don't want this to come off as a rant, but this is something where my own technique is based on my experience with amanos and mapped onto keeping neo shrimp. @Chick-In-Of-TheSea has neo shrimp and has ran into major issues with water change methods. So there is definitely a bit of "be the shrimp" mantra that we need to absolutely consider.  In my view, from everything I have seen, there are 3-4 main methods we as hobbyist are told to keep our shrimp.  I can pretty much guarantee to you that half of them are wrong, the question is which half. (Controversial statement a little bit, but let me break down exactly why I say that)

 

A. Toss shrimp into a tank and don't do any water changes for months. The mindset that shrimp are one of the easiest things to care for and you just add water and you're done. (Some people don't even do top offs!!!!)

B. Low and slow method.  Very small amount of water changed and that water is added very slowly back into the tank as to reduce any shock to the shrimp themselves.  This is the mindset of the shrimp being very sensitive and delicate and shifts in water parameters will cause major deaths. (This is closely tied to A in some aspects for some people)

C. The MST method. First of note is that care for Caridina is not the same as care for Neo shrimp, but it is extremely similar in method and practice. This is the method I would say is used by a plethora of breeders. 25% water changes every week. Drip the water back in or simply match your temps and then go ahead and make sure water is prepped according to a strict method using remineralizers.  There will be a variation in something like GH and KH due to how the water is mixed, but ultimately it's very slight and water is made from RO and it's very consistent.

D. Community tank method. Add shrimp to your fish tank and see what works. Very loose concepts for care for the species and the shrimp adapt to whatever your own personal methods are. Only the strong survive and the rest simply are food as a result of darwinism.

 

When I started my journey with neo shrimp, my goal was to try to understand what they live with in nature. Rivers and streams. Sometimes it's a slow moving pool and sometimes it's a torrent of water. If we look back at the situations above we can see where all of these different situations makes sense in nature. In my eye B and C are the "correct" methods for keeping shrimp. I prefer to simply recommend that people use MST (Marks shrimp tanks) method and care guides because he has some of the easiest to understand and technically sound practices. In the same token, especially by US breeders, there are plenty that do the exact same things. His method of adding water is unique and something I didn't see elsewhere.

He recommends a limit of 25-30% water changes and he does mention that using RO makes your life easier because you simply don't have to worry about the changes in the tap water. The idea being to remove seasonal issues from the water company (or groundwater) as a potential for contamination in your tanks. Ah.... So we are back full circle to some logic behind the reasonable concept that shrimp are a sensitive species! So we can surmise that shrimp, dwarf aquarium shrimp, are sensitive to things like contaminants and swings in water chemistry. 

In nature they might have a high volume of water being changed, but that water is ultimately very consistent or very diluted! So something like a community tank might not be exactly optimal because of excessive nitrates, predation, stress molting, and other things.  This is something I have personally witnessed where adding a single corydoras fry led to the shrimp changing their eating behavior and ultimately not eating as they normally would. They had to try to get food and run to hide and eat it away from the fish. The fish went to the feeding dish and booped the shrimp out of it. Unintentional, but sometimes fish don't realize they just pushed their nose into a bunch of things and have that "get into my belly" mindset for food.

I won't share or explain my own technique for water changes with my shrimp, as it is an experiment of sorts and not something where I think that everyone will have success. I will share a few notes that I have learned and that hopefully will help, especially when it comes to baby shrimp care.

1. Powdered foods is a must for baby shrimp to make sure they get food a little easier. You can also expand this to just having a good food that they can pick and dart away with. Something mobile like a very fine pellet. Shrimp do prefer to graze, so they will literally sit there and eat rather than run with it.

2. Adding water slowly can be viewed two ways. Water in = water out and you just need to add good oxygenated water.... Or.... Keep to whatever the routine is, but slowly add in water for the sake of acclimating them over a few hours with any swings. I won't say any of these techniques is wrong. Oxygen is a shrimps friend! The main tip I use for my own is that I use something to physically slow down the water from rushing into the tank and breaking the shrimp as I add the water back in. This could be a piece of bubble wrap, your own technique of pouring slowly, Styrofoam, a drip using an airline valve, or a float valve.  The main thing for me is a bit of a gentle touch with the water, within reason. Some people add water back in a scoop at a time just because that's what they have as a tool to do so. There's a million methods.

3. Water in should generally be water out. This simply means that you should be changing water enough to avoid old tank syndrome. Don't let things build up and don't ignore the tank entirely because when you do have those water changes, that shock will either cause stress molts and death after a few days or it will cause some severe issues with acclimation and instant death in some shrimp.

4. Keep a clean setup. Always wash your hands (I do it with 2-3 rinses) before you put hands in the tank. Residue chemicals and things on your body from the human world might have triggers for stress molts on the shrimp. The vast majority of the time you won't have any issues, but that one time you do the common technique to remove a contamination is to do water changes. That might not be the easiest thing to do if you're trying to reduce stress. Especially when it's drip by drip. It's just something to keep in mind and have a very intentional technique.

On YouTube there are a lot of different methods and best practices. I can simply say that I've done a lot of research and to go follow what Mark does, but I don't know if that is beneficial or not. In my view, my own practice it's been helpful, but that is just my own experience talking.

There is flip aquatics, marks shrimp tanks, mark Shelley, shrimp mania, tiny menagerie, LRB aquatics, and a ton of other resources for shrimp information. Whichever one makes sense for you personally is going to be the resource you want to follow.  What I will recommend is to follow that method exactly and not to just mix up your own technique based on the video that YouTube sent you that morning.  Consistency is key with shrimp. Get them used to a method, do that method. They will do just fine for you.

Edited June 15, 2023 by nabokovfan87
typo

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I use tap water and prime.  Sometimes I change once a week, sometimes I change once a month.  Along those lines. My parameters don't change.  I started with 10%. Some shrimp would die.  It's because I was just dumping the water back in with a bucket.

I moved to dripping water back in (well, full flow through an airline - this still ends up being slow).  25%. No more losses. 

I feed a "tiny" bit of Bacter AE once a week also, particularly if I have shrimplets.  Supplement with Repashy soilent green powder.  I feed solid foods also (shrimp pellets or prepared Soilent Green repashy, or boiled vegetables) and for fun once a week I give them a shrimp lolly and watch the frenzy.

P.S. I have hard water.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Sora]

On 6/15/2023 at 10:32 AM, Schuyler said:

Cory has talked about crayfish being illegal in WA but some stores still carry them. The thing is that the WAC bans them at the family level and the department of natural resources website for looking up prohibited species doesn't pull up anything when you search by the species name. WAC 220-640-050 (3)(b): "The following species are classified as prohibited level 3 species: ... Family Cambaridae: Crayfish: All genera"

I’m not actually sure we’re they are illegal to sell, because I got mine on eBay and they came from Florida. I’m pretty sure their illegal in the United Kingdom.

[Jennifer V]

Just to add to the fun here, I tried shrimp several times by buying from a LFS and it never worked out. I got frustrated and waited a year to add new ones to the tank. When I bought some culls from a local hobbyist, it worked out very well. There are almost too many shrimp in the tank now. Even when I went out of town and the tank got neglected and resulted in an ammonia spike, the shrimp were fine. 

I don't have a TDS tester, so I rely on my KH/GH liquid testers. My GH is high and KH/PH are low but with added crushed coral, the parameters are stable. I tried to chase numbers for quite awhile and settled in on being happy that the parameters in this tank stay consistent although not perfect. 

I change the water once or twice a week by slowly removing ~30 percent and slowly adding water treated with Fritz Complete back in. It's a 5g so I can get away with using a cup to do WCs and a turkey baster to suck up the gunk from the sand. Not ideal for you, but placing a Tupperware lid on top of the water and then slowly adding the new water on top of that will prevent splashing and ensure that the water gets added slowly. 

I feed the shrimp 1/4 of 1/8 tsp BacterAE once a week so the shrimplettes have easily accessible food. The directions from the company use far too much, imo. I did a ton of research before buying the stuff and settled in on that quantity. @Guppysnail was a huge help there. I also like Sera shrimp food because it starts out as heavy pellets and then breaks down in the water so even small shrimp can get to it. As with anytime else, it's easy to overfeed but my tank also has snails I feed to my puffers, so I don't worry too much about that. I just test the tank frequently to make sure I'm not feeding too much and if the nitrates are high, I do an extra WC.  I really want to try the shrimp lollies too, just as @Chick-In-Of-TheSea mentioned. I also feed the shrimp Fluval Bug Bites and Hikari Shrimp Cuisine and am waiting on some Xtreme Aquatic Shrimpee food and I fast one day. It's probably overkill to feed so many different kinds of food but it makes me feel like I'm doing something good for them. 

All of this is purely anecdotal. Although I've again done a ton of research, every tank is different and I may just be lucky that I have such a thriving colony. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Jennifer V

[smm333]

On 6/15/2023 at 7:32 AM, Schuyler said:

Hey that's my LFS too! I've actually sold some Killifish to them.

Cory has talked about crayfish being illegal in WA but some stores still carry them. The thing is that the WAC bans them at the family level and the department of natural resources website for looking up prohibited species doesn't pull up anything when you search by the species name. WAC 220-640-050 (3)(b): "The following species are classified as prohibited level 3 species: ... Family Cambaridae: Crayfish: All genera"

https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-640-050

Interesting. I did try to find info on the legality but couldn't find anything. Weird that stores would carry them! 

[smm333]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:18 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

How much water and how often?

For me, this is one of the most misunderstood things I see from anyone keeping shrimp. Dilution is a shrimps friend.  From the start of keeping shrimp there are a plethora of videos and resources from breeders that specify what is "the correct way" and what is "the only way" to care for them. I don't want this to come off as a rant, but this is something where my own technique is based on my experience with amanos and mapped onto keeping neo shrimp. @Chick-In-Of-TheSea has neo shrimp and has ran into major issues with water change methods. So there is definitely a bit of "be the shrimp" mantra that we need to absolutely consider.  In my view, from everything I have seen, there are 3-4 main methods we as hobbyist are told to keep our shrimp.  I can pretty much guarantee to you that half of them are wrong, the question is which half. (Controversial statement a little bit, but let me break down exactly why I say that)

 

A. Toss shrimp into a tank and don't do any water changes for months. The mindset that shrimp are one of the easiest things to care for and you just add water and you're done. (Some people don't even do top offs!!!!)

B. Low and slow method.  Very small amount of water changed and that water is added very slowly back into the tank as to reduce any shock to the shrimp themselves.  This is the mindset of the shrimp being very sensitive and delicate and shifts in water parameters will cause major deaths. (This is closely tied to A in some aspects for some people)

C. The MST method. First of note is that care for Caridina is not the same as care for Neo shrimp, but it is extremely similar in method and practice. This is the method I would say is used by a plethora of breeders. 25% water changes every week. Drip the water back in or simply match your temps and then go ahead and make sure water is prepped according to a strict method using remineralizers.  There will be a variation in something like GH and KH due to how the water is mixed, but ultimately it's very slight and water is made from RO and it's very consistent.

D. Community tank method. Add shrimp to your fish tank and see what works. Very loose concepts for care for the species and the shrimp adapt to whatever your own personal methods are. Only the strong survive and the rest simply are food as a result of darwinism.

 

When I started my journey with neo shrimp, my goal was to try to understand what they live with in nature. Rivers and streams. Sometimes it's a slow moving pool and sometimes it's a torrent of water. If we look back at the situations above we can see where all of these different situations makes sense in nature. In my eye B and C are the "correct" methods for keeping shrimp. I prefer to simply recommend that people use MST (Marks shrimp tanks) method and care guides because he has some of the easiest to understand and technically sound practices. In the same token, especially by US breeders, there are plenty that do the exact same things. His method of adding water is unique and something I didn't see elsewhere.

He recommends a limit of 25-30% water changes and he does mention that using RO makes your life easier because you simply don't have to worry about the changes in the tap water. The idea being to remove seasonal issues from the water company (or groundwater) as a potential for contamination in your tanks. Ah.... So we are back full circle to some logic behind the reasonable concept that shrimp are a sensitive species! So we can surmise that shrimp, dwarf aquarium shrimp, are sensitive to things like contaminants and swings in water chemistry. 

In nature they might have a high volume of water being changed, but that water is ultimately very consistent or very diluted! So something like a community tank might not be exactly optimal because of excessive nitrates, predation, stress molting, and other things.  This is something I have personally witnessed where adding a single corydoras fry led to the shrimp changing their eating behavior and ultimately not eating as they normally would. They had to try to get food and run to hide and eat it away from the fish. The fish went to the feeding dish and booped the shrimp out of it. Unintentional, but sometimes fish don't realize they just pushed their nose into a bunch of things and have that "get into my belly" mindset for food.

I won't share or explain my own technique for water changes with my shrimp, as it is an experiment of sorts and not something where I think that everyone will have success. I will share a few notes that I have learned and that hopefully will help, especially when it comes to baby shrimp care.

1. Powdered foods is a must for baby shrimp to make sure they get food a little easier. You can also expand this to just having a good food that they can pick and dart away with. Something mobile like a very fine pellet. Shrimp do prefer to graze, so they will literally sit there and eat rather than run with it.

2. Adding water slowly can be viewed two ways. Water in = water out and you just need to add good oxygenated water.... Or.... Keep to whatever the routine is, but slowly add in water for the sake of acclimating them over a few hours with any swings. I won't say any of these techniques is wrong. Oxygen is a shrimps friend! The main tip I use for my own is that I use something to physically slow down the water from rushing into the tank and breaking the shrimp as I add the water back in. This could be a piece of bubble wrap, your own technique of pouring slowly, Styrofoam, a drip using an airline valve, or a float valve.  The main thing for me is a bit of a gentle touch with the water, within reason. Some people add water back in a scoop at a time just because that's what they have as a tool to do so. There's a million methods.

3. Water in should generally be water out. This simply means that you should be changing water enough to avoid old tank syndrome. Don't let things build up and don't ignore the tank entirely because when you do have those water changes, that shock will either cause stress molts and death after a few days or it will cause some severe issues with acclimation and instant death in some shrimp.

4. Keep a clean setup. Always wash your hands (I do it with 2-3 rinses) before you put hands in the tank. Residue chemicals and things on your body from the human world might have triggers for stress molts on the shrimp. The vast majority of the time you won't have any issues, but that one time you do the common technique to remove a contamination is to do water changes. That might not be the easiest thing to do if you're trying to reduce stress. Especially when it's drip by drip. It's just something to keep in mind and have a very intentional technique.

On YouTube there are a lot of different methods and best practices. I can simply say that I've done a lot of research and to go follow what Mark does, but I don't know if that is beneficial or not. In my view, my own practice it's been helpful, but that is just my own experience talking.

There is flip aquatics, marks shrimp tanks, mark Shelley, shrimp mania, tiny menagerie, LRB aquatics, and a ton of other resources for shrimp information. Whichever one makes sense for you personally is going to be the resource you want to follow.  What I will recommend is to follow that method exactly and not to just mix up your own technique based on the video that YouTube sent you that morning.  Consistency is key with shrimp. Get them used to a method, do that method. They will do just fine for you.

I am a B method person. I set up my 1st tank following a Flip Aquatics video. I bought my 1st shrimp from there so I was trying to do everything I could to guarentee their success. 

I feed them shrimp King foods, Shrimo Baby when there are babies, and Bacter AE.

My 20 long has a matten filter so I pour my new water behind that so I don't harm any shrimp. I will usually pour in small amounts throughout the day so I don't shock them.

[Lennie]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:47 PM, smm333 said:

I am a B method person. I set up my 1st tank following a Flip Aquatics video. I bought my 1st shrimp from there so I was trying to do everything I could to guarentee their success. 

I feed them shrimp King foods, Shrimo Baby when there are babies, and Bacter AE.

My 20 long has a matten filter so I pour my new water behind that so I don't harm any shrimp. I will usually pour in small amounts throughout the day so I don't shock them.

Sounds very  good 👍🏻