PH skyrocket

[Hellhounds]

PH in quarantine tank has skyrocketed. All fish are dying and sick. Can I try moving fish to another quarantine tank without killing them due to the rapid change in parameters of new quarantine tank?  Thanks in advance for any suggestions.  Heartbroken over new fish deaths.

[Fish Folk]

What is you pH from tap?

How are you measuring your results?

Are there anything keys about QT vs. your typical set up tank measurements? Limestone? Crushed coral? Dolomite?

High pH makes Ammonia build up toxic much faster than lower values. At 6.5 pH, Ammonia is slower to toxicity than at 8.2 pH.

[Hellhounds]

Thank you for the help. Tap PH is now 6.8 from faucet.  I have test strips and the API test kit.  O Nitrites, 0 Nitrates, GH is not on charts, KH between 120 and 180, PH 6.8, 0 chlorine.  I live in Phoenix, AZ and of course this is another change in water parameters from usual. I did not add any crushed coral to this tank but I’m sure that’s what I should have done.  I feel terrible about the fish.  Thanks again.

[Hellhounds]

Please see parameters above. Thanks for the help.

[Lennie]

On 4/30/2023 at 11:58 PM, Hellhounds said:

Please see parameters above. Thanks for the help.

They mean the ph in the tank and the ph in the tap may differ after aeration. So your tap water might be 6.8 but your tank ph might be different. 

[Hellhounds]

Lennie, those parameters are identical. I’m beyond confused!

[Mmiller2001]

An uncycled QT tank is a death trap unless daily significant water changes are performed. Did you just set up the QT tank?

[Hellhounds]

No tank has been set up with rams horn snails for about 2 months.  A seasoned sponge filter was in tank from the start.  Live plants and gravel bottom.  Not concerned about losing plants. 

[Mmiller2001]

How many ramshorns and how many new fish did you add at once?

 

[nabokovfan87]

PH would shift based on oxygenation of the water. 

Adding salt to the tank if PH is extremely high, will help to slow down the affects of ammonia burn.  See the chart below.  At higher PH ammonium turns into ammonia.

 

Your posts above don't specify what you mean by the PH in the QT tank where the fish are being kept. Your PH in the tap is 6.8 (this is before any off-gassing occurs).  The PH in your snail/QT tank is?  What is the filtration like? Is there an airstone or what is the setup?

I understand it is a stressful situation.  I am sorry for you losses. Please let us know a bit more so we can try to understand what is going on.

On 4/30/2023 at 1:19 PM, Hellhounds said:

Tap PH is now 6.8 from faucet.

This is from the tap.

 

On 4/30/2023 at 1:19 PM, Hellhounds said:

O Nitrites, 0 Nitrates, GH is not on charts, KH between 120 and 180, PH 6.8, 0 chlorine.

Is this from the tank?  Given the KH you're at I would expect the PH to rise above 7.5 after oxygenation happens for 24 hours.

For me, my PH at 6.8 out of the tap, stabilizes around 6.5-6.8 after off-gassing and my KH is 40 ppm.  I dose in a buffer to get it up to 60-80 ppm / 7.0 ph

[Hellhounds]

Thank you for all of the suggestions.  Miller - I definately added too many fish at once.  I’m running a HOB and a sponge filter so oxygenation is high.  I was doing large water changes every other day ( 50 - 80%).  PH skyrocketed off the charts this morning.  Only did a test strip before freaking out.  Did not do an API test at that point. the fish came from a  local store but I have no idea if they had been there long.  Place got busy as they attempted to catch my fish so I failed to get info necessary before leaving.  I take full responsibility for purchasing too many for a quarantine.  10 gallon with 19 gupppies - most being tiny babies less that 1/2 inch long.

[Fish Folk]

@Hellhounds thanks for being patient with all of us. We just want to be helpful.

From your OP, you wrote…

“PH in quarantine tank has skyrocketed.”

- Are you comparing this to your noted tap water pH measurement of 6.8 ?
 

- What is the new measurement that it has “skyrocketed” up to?

- It might be that your _settled_ pH is more like 7.8 (for example). The old aquarists used to insist that tap water should be _rested_ for 24-48 hours before being used. This was because (1) chlorine could have time to gas off, (2) oxygen levels had time to balance, and (3) pH could find its natural resting balance in your settled water. 

You continue…

“All fish are dying and sick.”

- As others have said already, my sincere condolences. It’s very sad to lose wet pets.

- But are you sure pH increase is the _cause_ of your fish deaths? I suspect that a fish died, and ammonia began to increase, causing pH to also rise.

- It could be that there was a combined affect between ammonia and pH. Alternatively, maybe the fish were sick with something else.

- I think it bears noting that a very good, established quarantine tank may be a bit more difficult to set up and maintain than we like to admit.

You next asked…

“Can I try moving fish to another quarantine tank without killing them due to the rapid change in parameters of new quarantine tank?”

- The only way to safely move fish around is when you have a well-cycled tank / tub already set up.

- Fish produce ammonia from their gills, along with waste production. Adding food that doesn’t get eaten produces more ammonia. It is hard to work around ammonia buildup when you don’t have healthy autotrophic bacterial colonies built up to convert it through the nitrogen cycle.

- If you add a ton of fish to a QT tank that’s not had to grind through ammonia recently… your bacteria might not be able to keep up.

_______________

Now, just to clarify: you called these “new fish deaths.” Were they sick when you bought them? Or were you just quarantining as an advisable procedure?

I am neither all for nor all against team “med-trio.” I know it saves a lot of grief in certain circumstances to treat new fish before adding. But personally I also have experienced about an equal amount of fish death from inexperienced quarantine procedures. Most of us do not go about QT properly. If your fish are sick, and you remove to treat, that’s a tough situation to work through. But if you’re losing new fish because you’re just quarantining out of worry that _maybe_ they could be sick, you might be fine just adding the fish to your tank.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Fish Folk

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/30/2023 at 3:56 PM, Hellhounds said:

I take full responsibility for purchasing too many for a quarantine.  10 gallon with 19 gupppies - most being tiny babies less that 1/2 inch long.

Based on the setup, there shouldn't be too much of an issue short term.

[KittenFishMom]

19 baby guppies in a 10 gallon doesn't sound like too many fish. Store bought guppies have a reputation for having been stressed in the store before you get them. Mutt guppies can be very tough and strong. Some guppies that are breed just for looks can be very fragile. You might want to call the store any see if anyone else has had problems with these guppies. 

Some say stores underfeed their fish so the tanks don't take so long to clean. This can weaken the fish if they are there for long. I bought a betta who looked undersized to me. When I put him in the tank he went after any food like there was no tomorrow. Then I noticed the date on the lid was from more than a month ago.  

I had a "season sponge filter" I was keeping in a tank, but when I added fish, the cycle crashed because I had not been "ghost feeding" the cycle. You need to feed the tank like the fish are in it to get the cycle ready for the fish. Ghost feeding is important if you are going to add a lot of fish. To me, 19 baby fish isn't a lot.

I think people asking about pH want to know your tap pH, you normal tanks normal pH and the QT tanks pH before and after the pH shot up. Those are 4 numbers that you may have given, but doing it again all in one post might help folks help you.

 

[Hellhounds]

Wow, the help I’ve received is unbelievably generous.  Each of you have made me feel better about this QT tank. I should have ghost fed that tank better than I was doing.  Gupppys looked good in the store but they were hungry as guppy’s always are.  

Tap PH is 7.5, normal tank PH is also 7.5 (in all 6 tanks with fish), before today the PH was 7.5 but escalated to almost 9 in guppy tank.

I will seed the 3 QT tanks with crushed coral in the future.  

Thank you for making me feel better about the fish losses.  Thank you for walking me through this process. I have taken to heart all suggestions.  Thanks again everyone - you’ve all been wonderful!

[Hellhounds]

Fish Folk - I always quarantine.  My goal was to feed unless I saw issues.  The very first morning I had a dead guppy.  I checked ammonia immediately - no spike but I did a water change of 30% out of caution.  By day 4 I began treating with the Med.Trio.  I continued water changes.  I think I may need to let my water sit as suggested for 24 - 48 hours before adding.  I add Prime as I add water. I also dosed the tank with Fritz Zyme 7 bacteria when I added the fish. First 3 days I added Stress Coat during water changes. 

[KittenFishMom]

@Hellhounds Keep reading the forum and you will be offering help to others like the rest of us in no time. We all need to thank Cory for setting this supportive place up !

[Hellhounds]

It has certainly been worth it to me to reach out.  Cory’s team has assisted me on another occasion.  Invaluable help for fish nerds!

[jwcarlson]

I age my water 24 hours unless I am just topping off or something.  PH shifts from 7 out of tap to 8.2-8.3.  You can test this on a small scale like a quart jar.  Just aerate overnight and test the pH before and after.  I don't think this was what caused your problems, but it's good information to have.  

I also always dose Prime for the whole tank volume when I do a water change.