Will I Have Enough Snails For Pea Puffers?

[FLFishChik]

My guess is probably not, but I have 6 Pea Puffers that will be moving in soon and I ordered 25 Bladder Snails and 10 Ramshorn Snails to start a colony... Im now second guessing if I should have purchased double that? How quickly will Bladder Snails multiply? The Ramshorns are primarily for me.. the culls will go to the Peas... but the Bladder Snails are ALL for the Puffers.... Im just wondering if it will be enough.

6 Puffers that will get Snails three to four times weekly (along with Blood Worms and Brine Shrimp)

Any advice for a first time Murder Bean Mom would be appreciated!

[AllFishNoBrakes]

@FLFishChik I’ve had my peas for about a year and a half now. I have 6 in a 29 gallon. Sounds like we do something similar as far as feeding. Mine get bloodworms and then live snails a couple times per week. 
 

Based on my personal experience, you’re probably a couple of months out until having the snail population you’ll want/need to feed snails 3 or 4 times per week. These little murder beans can eat a lot! Even if I feed bloodworms, and then drop in 10 snails in a jungle of PSO there’s 10 snail shells on the substrate before the next nights bloodworms. 
 

I would put the snails in different tanks and just feed them well and let them multiply. It’s gonna take some time, but when you have “too many” then pull some out with a little bit of tank water in a Tupperware and feed them out. When I do maintenance I’ll just take snails out of my tanks as they’re on the glass or whatever and then that’s my snails for the week. Definitely takes time to build those snail colonies to do that all the time though. 
 

I’ve found my Peas to be probably my favorite fish I’ve kept and they’ve been easy, for me at least. Holler if I can be of assistance!

Edited April 20, 2023 by AllFishNoBrakes

[Odd Duck]

If you had gotten your snails a couple months ago, you would be on track, but you’ll need a whole lot more of a start to keep up with peas.  If you can feed them all bloodworms, brine shrimp, Daphnia, etc, for a couple months you should have enough of a colony built up of each type of snail to fill the bill.  Ramshorn eggs take 2-4 weeks to hatch (as little as 10 days in warmer temps), snails are ready to reproduce in about 4-6 weeks.  So if you don’t touch your starters your colony should self-sustain in about 2 months.

Your bladder snail eggs hatch in about 1 week and snails are mature in about 4 weeks.  But it takes more bladder snails to feed a pea than it does ramshorns.  So your self-sustaining point is still likely to be around 2 months.  Make sure you always keep several medium to larger breeders, especially of the ramshorns.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Odd Duck
Clarify

[rockfisher]

People sell them for cheap. If you find someone you trust they can offer provided 100’s at a time. You can feed small Malaysian snails as well but they need to be on the smal size. 

[FLFishChik]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:27 AM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

@FLFishChik I’ve had my peas for about a year and a half now. I have 6 in a 29 gallon. Sounds like we do something similar as far as feeding. Mine get bloodworms and then live snails a couple times per week. 
 

Based on my personal experience, you’re probably a couple of months out until having the snail population you’ll want/need to feed snails 3 or 4 times per week. These little murder beans can eat a lot! Even if I feed bloodworms, and then drop in 10 snails in a jungle of PSO there’s 10 snail shells on the substrate before the next nights bloodworms. 
 

I would put the snails in different tanks and just feed them well and let them multiply. It’s gonna take some time, but when you have “too many” then pull some out with a little bit of tank water in a Tupperware and feed them out. When I do maintenance I’ll just take snails out of my tanks as they’re on the glass or whatever and then that’s my snails for the week. Definitely takes time to build those snail colonies to do that all the time though. 
 

I’ve found my Peas to be probably my favorite fish I’ve kept and they’ve been easy, for me at least. Holler if I can be of assistance!

Mine will be going in a 29g as well. I have two other tanks set up specifically for the Snails… so the Murder Beans can’t decimate them before they can even get started😂

On 4/20/2023 at 12:45 AM, Odd Duck said:

If you had gotten your snails a couple months ago, you would be on track, but you’ll need a whole lot more of a start to keep up with peas.  If you can feed them all bloodworms, brine shrimp, Daphnia, etc, for a couple months you should have enough of a colony built up of each type of snail to fill the bill.  Ramshorn eggs take 2-4 weeks to hatch (as little as 10 days in warmer temps), snails are ready to reproduce in about 4-6 weeks.  So if you don’t touch your starters your colony should self-sustain in about 2 months.

Your bladder snail eggs hatch in about 1 week and snails are mature in about 4 weeks.  But it takes more bladder snails to feed a pea than it does ramshorns.  So your self-sustaining point is still likely to be around 2 months.  Make sure you always keep several medium to larger breeders, especially of the ramshorns.

Thanks! I am planing to probably keep the original 25 as parent snails (how long do they live?), the Ramshorn snails I want to breed for colors, so they’ll be getting those as I cull. Guess I’ll need to buy more bladders then. Maybe I’ll get a snail population explosion 😂 (said only Pea Parents..ever)

[Odd Duck]

Per Google search, bladders supposedly live anywhere from 1-5 years, or no more than 2 years, or 3-12 months, depending on who you believe, but I’d suggest feeding them before they get geriatric since you don’t want any to die in the tank and foul it.  Ramshorn snails live about a year.

[FLFishChik]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:49 AM, Odd Duck said:

Per Google search, bladders supposedly live anywhere from 1-5 years, or no more than 2 years, or 3-12 months, depending on who you believe, but I’d suggest feeding them before they get geriatric since you don’t want any to die in the tank and foul it.  Ramshorn snails live about a year.

Good to know! The Ramshorn will be in their own tank and the Bladders will have their own. I figured it would be easier to keep track of then that way 

[Odd Duck]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:47 AM, FLFishChik said:

Good to know! The Ramshorn will be in their own tank and the Bladders will have their own. I figured it would be easier to keep track of then that way 

Definitely best for them to be separated since ramshorns will tend to eventually crowd out the bladder snails, IME.

[FLFishChik]

On 4/20/2023 at 3:51 AM, Odd Duck said:

Definitely best for them to be separated since ramshorns will tend to eventually crowd out the bladder snails, IME.

Wow… didn’t know that! I’m a snail newbie… only ever had Nerites and they don’t multiply in fresh water (tho that doesn’t stop them from snowing up my aquarium glass on a regular basis). 

[TOtrees]

For me, where I've had both in a single tank, the bladder snails seem to win out over time. So maybe it depends on the situation/environment. But I think that "over time" is the key. At the outset, your initial 25+10 will only be able to make so many babies, but that's a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to what you'll get when your 25+10 become 100+100, or more. 

I used to breed ramshorns in a 10gal, to sell, and to make assassin snails. If I ever got down to counting, I could probably have pulled 300-400 out of that tank that were pea-size or larger, with 10x that number that were the tiniest babies. When you are feeding a lot, and making snails is the goal, they'll definitely oblige. Mind you, that tank was stripped of calcium (despite tons of aragonite in the substrate), it needed gravel vac at least weekly, and it was constantly under "pH crash" conditions. So the quality of the snails was poor. Over the long term, I'd say that was a failed experiment, but I sure learned a lot:

1. Learn how to make snello (lots of recipes/links on this forum if you search; plus I know that @Chick-In-Of-TheSea has a couple threads about it linked in their signature  - which I admit that I haven't read, shame on me sorry Chick-In); 2. Once your numbers are up and the population is growing fast, harvest often (it's better to float somewhere well below critical mass, than constantly be above it); 3. "super-plants" like hornwort or guppy grass are awesome.

For your little murder beans (love the nickname), have you thought about culturing daphnia? I have a 20gal culture and a backup 5gal bucket, and both are teeming with ramshorn snails. I see an opportunity for a "two-fer" here (two great puffer foods cultured in one tank). I kept pea puffers briefly once, and they LOVE daphnias. Added bonus: a daphnia culture will take off or bloom to the point of yielding food for the puffers faster than growing out snails.

But I would also repeat what others have said above, work whatever local network you have to find sources of free or pest snails right away. You might even find folks who will mail you some for reasonable cost, since we're getting into the season where weather makes shipping easier (ie heat packs likely not necessary for something like ramshorns, and they tolerate shipping delays better than fishies).

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Snello recipes below in my signature line ⬇️

On 4/19/2023 at 11:26 PM, FLFishChik said:

How quickly will Bladder Snails multiply

I just got 3 of them 3 weeks ago, and now I have about 11.

Pea Puffers eat scuds also, if you can figure out how to get a scud colony going.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[FLFishChik]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:53 AM, TOtrees said:

For me, where I've had both in a single tank, the bladder snails seem to win out over time. So maybe it depends on the situation/environment. But I think that "over time" is the key. At the outset, your initial 25+10 will only be able to make so many babies, but that's a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to what you'll get when your 25+10 become 100+100, or more. 

I used to breed ramshorns in a 10gal, to sell, and to make assassin snails. If I ever got down to counting, I could probably have pulled 300-400 out of that tank that were pea-size or larger, with 10x that number that were the tiniest babies. When you are feeding a lot, and making snails is the goal, they'll definitely oblige. Mind you, that tank was stripped of calcium (despite tons of aragonite in the substrate), it needed gravel vac at least weekly, and it was constantly under "pH crash" conditions. So the quality of the snails was poor. Over the long term, I'd say that was a failed experiment, but I sure learned a lot:

1. Learn how to make snello (lots of recipes/links on this forum if you search; plus I know that @Chick-In-Of-TheSea has a couple threads about it linked in their signature  - which I admit that I haven't read, shame on me sorry Chick-In); 2. Once your numbers are up and the population is growing fast, harvest often (it's better to float somewhere well below critical mass, than constantly be above it); 3. "super-plants" like hornwort or guppy grass are awesome.

For your little murder beans (love the nickname), have you thought about culturing daphnia? I have a 20gal culture and a backup 5gal bucket, and both are teeming with ramshorn snails. I see an opportunity for a "two-fer" here (two great puffer foods cultured in one tank). I kept pea puffers briefly once, and they LOVE daphnias. Added bonus: a daphnia culture will take off or bloom to the point of yielding food for the puffers faster than growing out snails.

But I would also repeat what others have said above, work whatever local network you have to find sources of free or pest snails right away. You might even find folks who will mail you some for reasonable cost, since we're getting into the season where weather makes shipping easier (ie heat packs likely not necessary for something like ramshorns, and they tolerate shipping delays better than fishies).

Yeah, I think I’ll be hitting up my local Big Box store for pests snails… and frozen Brine Shrimp. Do Murder Beans like freeze dried brine shrimp? Because I’ve got that and the other fish won’t really eat it because it’s too big really (Cardinal Tetras have teeny mouths). 

On 4/20/2023 at 8:39 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Snello recipes below in my signature line ⬇️

I just got 3 of them 3 weeks ago, and now I have about 11.

Pea Puffers eat scuds also, if you can figure out how to get a scud colony going.

 

Thank you for this!!! I also have Repashy (Super Green and Community plus) I mix together along with some flake food and freeze dried daphnia to round out for my Corydoras.. the Nerites seem fond of it so maybe the others will eat that as well?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Do you think they might like to crunch on some krill?  @FLFishChik

Maybe the krill would be too big, idk.

[FLFishChik]

Ohhh… that could work! The more I have in my Murder Bean arsenal, the better off they will be

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

you know who we should ask - @mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I hope you start a pea puffer journal @FLFishChik

tag me if you do

[FLFishChik]

On 4/20/2023 at 1:26 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I hope you start a pea puffer journal @FLFishChik

tag me if you do

You got it!

[Odd Duck]

Krill are quite big and I’ve never had any luck getting pea puffers to eat anything dried at all.  They love live Daphnia, but taste and spit frozen Daphnia, look at but don’t even bother tasting freeze dried Daphnia.  They will eat frozen blood worms but won’t even taste freeze dried bloodworms.  They looked at but didn’t even taste live, wingless fruit flies even if I drowned them so they would slowly sink.

They love scuds, blackworms, whiteworms, Grindal worms until the fish get big enough they get less enthusiastic about Grindals.  Love the live Daphnia and Ceriodaphnia, bladder snails are their favorite snail but they eat rams with gusto, too, especially smaller ones.  I don’t like to feed large ones since they leave too much meat in the shell and it can taint the water.  I’ve never actually seen them eat an MTS and only had them in the 29 G but they hid in the sand so well that I rarely saw them.

Marble limpets (a type of nerite snail) can survive in the tank with them for a time since their flesh is entirely hidden under the shell. But they eventually fall off the glass, or maybe get knocked off the glass, and then get eaten.  I’ve also had decent luck with horned nerites surviving in the tank with pea puffers.  Their shell opening is very small and fairly well protected by spikes.

They will pick at and eventually kill even large mystery snails - I didn’t realize how bad they were getting picked on until one died, the others were moved and recovered fine (I thought they would only eat the babies).  They will eat frozen brine but aren’t that enthusiastic about it, but will go after pretty much live anything but the fruit flies.  Oh, and they love live mosquito larvae.  I’ve never tried dried mosquito larvae.  Really small babies will eat vinegar eels but prefer microworms since they will sink to the bottom.  The vinegar eels always end up at the top of the water.

I presume they would also eat Walter worms and banana worms but I haven’t cultured those since I have microworms and vinegar eels, then jump to Grindals and have at least some scuds in nearly every tank (I never see them in most tanks since they hide but I have scud refugiums in multiple tanks and assume there are probably scuds in them).

Mine did not eat small freeze-dried mysis shrimp.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Hmm, a king koopa nerite might be a good tankmate.  Its body is really not exposed due to its shell shape. Also they go through periods of dormancy (2-3 weeks at a time), and the pea puffers may not realize it is alive.

[FLFishChik]

The Murder Beans have arrived!!!!!

It is my pleasure to introduce to you… the Bean Gang

Cheddar, Feta, Gouda, Swiss, Brie, Bleu and Queso!

Edited April 21, 2023 by FLFishChik

[Odd Duck]

I would definitely recommend deworming.  They look thin.  May only be from shipping, but it looks like more than that.  Feed them up for a few days before deworming or it could be too much stress.

It will be worth it in the long run.

[FLFishChik]

On 4/21/2023 at 7:17 PM, Odd Duck said:

I would definitely recommend deworming.  They look thin.  May only be from shipping, but it looks like more than that.  Feed them up for a few days before deworming or it could be too much stress.

It will be worth it in the long run.

I’ll keep a good eye on them, but I’ve been guaranteed that they have been dewormed and treated for 30 days before being sold.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 4/20/2023 at 8:44 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

you know who we should ask - @mountaintoppufferkeeper

Late to see this one thanks @Chick-In-Of-TheSea .... @FLFishChik congrats. I generally rotate foods for my puffers : 

snails primarily pond and ramshorn some mystery culls and some mts. 

Grindal worms, whiteworms, earthworms, 

Frozen foods/Freeze dried foods/repashy

My goal is snails every other feeding and rotating between the rest to keep variety

 

I generally feed and if the thin remains or if i see worms visually then I will do another deworming. This puffer is the last I dewormed it is a wild caught spotted congo puffer. I this was day 1 of arrival

I dewormed following the directions and dosing of paracleanse  https://www.aquariumcoop.com/collections/fish-medicine/products/fritz-paracleanse

Then after a break expel-p following those directions. 

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/collections/fish-medicine/products/fritz-expel-p

The result. This is the same puffer based of pattern of the spots :

 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

My Pea Puffers definitely got dewormed. Highly recommend doing a round of Paracleanse. You’ll thank yourself in the long run.