My plants won't grow

[w0walana]

I need help figuring out why my plants wont grow and why they're growing very slowly. I have a 20 gallon long with a plenum and plain kitty litter, eco complete, and a bit of black sand as the substrate. i used some laterite in between the layers and aquarium co-op root tabs where i planted. i have two nicrew skyled lights on the tank as well.
my main parameters before the plenum started to kick in were: 0/0/10-20, this was with salvinia and maybe one or two 5 gallon water changes.
(i initially set up the tank in april 2022 and reset it in janauary this year. plants struggled to grow then too)

here's what my plants look like

[knee]

How are your lights positioned? 

What's a plenum? What brand of kitty litter are you using?

[w0walana]

a plenum is basically using an undergravel filter with slow air movement to create a void under the substrate that initiates anoxic filtration (it fully completes the nitrogen cycle and helps get rid of nitrates). so far it's working! 

the lights are placed normally but on the back half of the lid. 

i'm using Special Kitty Fragrance Free Natural Clay Non-Clumping Cat Litter

here's what the poor tank looks like as well

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:30 PM, knee said:

What's a plenum? What brand of kitty litter are you using?

 

I suspect your substrate is very much inert and the plants don't have enough nutrients.  The plants melt, creates excess phosphates, resulting in repeated issues and plants struggling with algae.

 

On 3/22/2023 at 5:25 PM, w0walana said:

a plenum and plain kitty litter, eco complete, and a bit of black sand as the substrate.

Kitty Litter = Inert
Eco Complete = Inert but has some CEC (it's lava rock with stuff on it)
Black Sand = Likely black gravel = Inert

You are using root tabs, but I think your plants are going through similar issues to what I went through, they just need a bit of help to handle what the plants want. 

In terms of "fixing things" I would......

Remove the fish to reduce stress, push all the current substrate to one side of the tank, add in some active substrate, cap it with what you have currently.

If you're struggling to get enough nutrients and want to stick with the setup you have then there might be a way to boost the CEC efficiency? (asking @knee how he'd proceed here, because I've basically thrown in the towel and gone soil again).

I did struggle for a very, very long time with algae, ferts, plants, and basic things that should've grown are doing exactly what you are experiencing.

 

Ultimately, I stick to epiphytes, moss, and mostly anubias when I just get frustrated with the tank!

[w0walana]

clay (kitty litter) is supposed to have a high CEC too. this is the only tank i'm having trouble growing plants in though. i think i might go with easier plants soon but stem plants are my favorites. 

here's a video where someone used kitty litter in an experiment https://youtu.be/Rzem3wrmU9c

 

and another mentioning the CEC of kitty litter https://youtu.be/cMMsnYwH_Do

 

[Pepere]

I wouldnt worry about the substrate, ie replacing it or adding active… plants can grow fine in inert gravel.  However kitty litter and the such can soak up nutrients from the water column initially.

I was amazed how much Safe T Sorb initially soaked up kh, gh and lowered ph the first time I used it too and how much it seemed to soak up Easy green…until it stopped soaking up.

Are you water column feeding too, or just root tabs?

 

 

 

 

[JoeQ]

How do your stems react to the light? Do they open and close with the light cycle?

[w0walana]

I am just dosing the water column right now with easy green. Someone in another forum suggested that i try using seachem advance, so i also added some of that.

i pulled up the pearlweed i had and they didn't have any roots at all. i don't really look at my tank when the lights are off so i can't comment on the stems reacting to light.

[Pepere]

I would probably add some root tabs in areas of plants and dose up the water column to 40 ppm nitrate with a complete liquid fertilizer such as Easy Green.  I would test nitrate levels every few days just in case substrate is soaking up the nitrate levels initially.

Have you tested Ph, Gh and Kh?

[JoeQ]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:58 AM, w0walana said:

i don't really look at my tank when the lights are off so i can't comment on the stems reacting to light.

Stem leaves will close when they have had enough light for the day and stay closed until the light comes on in the morning. This process is gradual and takes a few hours. Try take note of this, its a great indicator of if you are giving your stems enough light (especially at the surface level) if they aren't reacting to light they arent absorbing nutrients either, this is one reason they wont grow.

On the other hand, if they are getting enough light but they do not grow its because they are not getting enough of the proper nutrients. In this case you are starving your plants by under fertilizing them! Its your job to figure out which senero it is!

Im thinking its under fertilizing, when I zoom in your AR seems to have some new growth, but its anemic. More nutrients equal more growth,   limited nutrients equal limited growth.

Edited March 25 by JoeQ

[w0walana]

I do agree that i'm under fertilizing but somehow i find it baffling how the plants don't seem to have enough nutrients when there's 30 fish in there creating waste everyday. 

I feel like they're definitely getting enough light because they aren't plants that require high lighting but they still wouldn't grow when nitrates were over 20ppm. I really don't know what i'm missing 😞

On 3/25/2023 at 7:27 AM, Pepere said:

I would probably add some root tabs in areas of plants and dose up the water column to 40 ppm nitrate with a complete liquid fertilizer such as Easy Green.  I would test nitrate levels every few days just in case substrate is soaking up the nitrate levels initially.

Have you tested Ph, Gh and Kh?

Ph, gh, and kh are fine but I don't really like having high nitrates. I'll try adding some more root tabs but I still didn't see growth from the plants when I used them the first and second time. I dosed some more easy green tonight though.

[w0walana]

On 3/25/2023 at 8:07 AM, JoeQ said:

Stem leaves will close when they have had enough light for the day and stay closed until the light comes on in the morning. This process is gradual and takes a few hours. Try take note of this, its a great indicator of if you are giving your stems enough light (especially at the surface level) if they aren't reacting to light they arent absorbing nutrients either, this is one reason they wont grow.

On the other hand, if they are getting enough light but they do not grow its because they are not getting enough of the proper nutrients. In this case you are starving your plants by under fertilizing them! Its your job to figure out which senero it is!

Im thinking its under fertilizing, when I zoom in your AR seems to have some new growth, but its anemic. More nutrients equal more growth,   limited nutrients equal limited growth.

If you have high light, doesn't that mean the plants will used more nutrients? If my plants weren't utilizing nutrients when i had higher nitrates, does that mean i would need higher lighting?

[JoeQ]

On 3/25/2023 at 11:58 PM, w0walana said:

If you have high light, doesn't that mean the plants will used more nutrients? If my plants weren't utilizing nutrients when i had higher nitrates, does that mean i would need higher lighting?

Light is like the gas pedal, it determines how fast (or slow) plants uptake nutrients. Plants also need a balanced mix of fertilizer (fuel) , the primary nutrients they need are nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. If this mix isn't balanced, they won't grow. Below is a chart of the other nutrients plants need shown in order of importance

Flip this chart over and it can be look at as a plant 'food chart'.  At the bottom would be nitrogen & phosphorus (which fish and fish food provide) but then you have potassium, magnesium, calcium, sulfur and a ton of micro nutrients that a plant needs, most of these aren't provided unless we provide it to them in the forn of fertilizer.

On 3/25/2023 at 11:51 PM, w0walana said:

I do agree that i'm under fertilizing but somehow i find it baffling how the plants don't seem to have enough nutrients when there's 30 fish in there creating waste everyday. 😞

See chart above, you are missing potassium, magnesium, calcium (which is usually present in most waters so im not sure if its included in ez green) sulfate and a ton of other micros

Edited March 26 by JoeQ

[JoeQ]

The above chart might not be 100% correct, it was screen grabbed from a terrestrial plant nutrition lecture I was watching. But its good enough to get you pointed in the right direction. Plants are no different than your fish, you need to feed them properly in order for them to grow. If not they just slowly waste away and die.

[w0walana]

The only thing i’m not positive about having is potassium but the fertilizer has a lot so all i have to do now is be patient 

[JoeQ]

On 3/26/2023 at 12:37 PM, w0walana said:

The only thing i’m not positive about having is potassium but the fertilizer has a lot so all i have to do now is be patient 

Good luck, Don't forget about regular water changes, this keeps your nutrients in balance. 

[Miska]

Thank you, @JoeQ I learned a lot reading what you wrote, even if it was not my post!

[JoeQ]

On 3/26/2023 at 1:01 PM, Miska said:

Thank you, @JoeQ I learned a lot reading what you wrote, even if it was not my post!

You are welcome, hopefully reading my incoherent ramblings didn't hurt too much! 😂. 

But seriously, 2 of the biggest contributions to my planted tank journey has been learning to keep quality water and a better understanding of plant nutrition. 

[Miska]

Thank you!!! I am really interested in it, and I feel like the more I learn about ease plant, the more I am understanding the rain garden and dry bed, and natural ponds I want to create too. (I am also starting big cottage gardens and a veggie garden). 

[JoeQ]

On 3/26/2023 at 1:31 PM, Miska said:

Thank you!!! I am really interested in it, and I feel like the more I learn about ease plant, the more I am understanding the rain garden and dry bed, and natural ponds I want to create too. (I am also starting big cottage gardens and a veggie garden). 

Wait till you discover the complex nutrition chart! The one I posted was the simple version. The advanced version deals with how a limited amount of, or an excess amount of one nutrient impacts a secondary nutrient! 🤯

[Lennie]

I'd like to share some opinion and what works for me personally. 

That looks like a 20g Long . So the tank is short but long. Therefore, it gives good amount of swimming space to fish in length, however, the light can reach the plants more directly and in higher amounts. Therefore, it makes them more prone to algae in general. Especially considering at the beginning, plants try to establish themself in the new tank conditions, melt, try to grow roots and so on. During this time, they cannot really make use of stuff in the tank, so algae has a chance to use the extra nutritiens and grow.

Therefore I would try to cover the light some with floating plants, or dim it. It looks quite bright for the amount of plants you have, at least from the picture.

I know it can be costy, but for planted tanks, I think densely planting with healthy looking plants from the start works the best in my experience. If you have a chance to add more plants, that could be pretty nice I believe.

I personally think that you should try to explore your own lighting and fertilizer routes. Everyone has different tanks and different preferences. Even in my jungle looking densely planted tanks, I've never fully dosed a fertilizer in my life ever and also never extended a lighting period of 7 hours. I never dose N in my tanks. I personally think it is an algae booster. As long as I have a good amount of fish and inverts, I have nitrate there. Also my tap water has nitrate too. So I have to take that into consideration personally. Water changes introduce nitrate in my tanks for example.

In new tanks, I always start with 6 hours of lighting. I again personally think anything more than 6 hour at the beginning works on the team algae. 

You would like to enrich your inert substrate for a better nutrition for root feeders. That's really important. Plants can't perform a growth when they lack something. Excess nutritien and not enough nutritient both means plants can't perform a good growth, so both of these situations help to team algae again.

I would add a fast grower like Hornwort or Elodea, if you have no issues with keeping them legally in where you live. Balancing fast growing-slow growing ratio plays an important role in my opinion.

Hope it helps,

P.S: great looking gourami 🙂

Edited March 26 by Lennie

[rockfisher]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:30 AM, w0walana said:

clay (kitty litter) is supposed to have a high CEC too. this is the only tank i'm having trouble growing plants in though. i think i might go with easier plants soon but stem plants are my favorites. 

here's a video where someone used kitty litter in an experiment https://youtu.be/Rzem3wrmU9c

 

and another mentioning the CEC of kitty litter https://youtu.be/cMMsnYwH_Do

 

It does

[rockfisher]

I would add root tabs again. Most tabs don’t last a long time. 2-3 months. I dose root tabs 1 month. If you make the osmocote ones they do last a bit longer but have there down sides as well. @Pepere is right about the kitty litter it takes some time for it adsorb everything. Until then it is basically stealing nutrients away from the plants. Once it is balanced it will be a plus. I would not change a ton of things all at once. If you do you will never know what works and what doesn’t. You may way to try something like Amazon sword. It does love those root tabs but other than that is one of the easiest plants to grow. As for the potassium here is the recipe/ mixture I use for K fertilizer. 

 

I works well and safe as long as you don’t overdose them same with any fertilizer. I feel K is one of the most under talked about plant nutrients. 

[JoeQ]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:46 AM, rockfisher said:

Pepere is right about the kitty litter it takes some time for it adsorb everything. Until then it is basically stealing nutrients away from the plants.

Typically, aren't you supposed to 'charge' kitty litter by soaking it in fertilizer before using it as an active substrate to avoid this issue? 

Edited March 27 by JoeQ

[rockfisher]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:03 AM, JoeQ said:

Typically, aren't you supposed to 'charge' kitty litter by soaking it in fertilizer before using it as an active substrate to avoid this issue? 

No, it more of a personal choice. Most of the people in my club that use it don’t soak it. I I did not soak it. That said I would next time. The eco-complete should provide a base for plant growth. Eco-complete is more that just lava rock and something sprayed on. It is that but there is more in that that just a rock. Lava rock breaks down and releases the minerals in the lava. It’s super porous and is great place for all those microbes at are great in aquariums. 

Eco‑Complete’s™ secret lies in rich basaltic volcanic soil which contains iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements to nourish your aquatic plants. Floraspore™ symbionts activate the root-substrate interface to facilitate the uptake of minerals which make for a healthier root and healthier plant. Iron rich Eco‑Complete™ eliminates the need for laterite. No artificial dyes, paints, or chemical coatings. Eco-Complete™ has highly porous spherical grains for optimum diffusion performance and contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants.

Its not the end all be all, but it’s ok to use. 
The way her tank is set up is not likely. It’s more what is being done. One can grow plant in just marbles, provided they get fertilizer. I would don’t do that because marbles are stable an move to easy.  Point is it inert substrate is ok to use. There was a question about about CEC, it it’s not as good as organic soil but better than eco complete and most other advertised plant substrates. CEC is an overrated baseline to choose substrates. 

Edited March 27 by rockfisher