Shrimp Tank Help Needed

[Bill Ripley]

Hi,

I'm looking for help on a neocaridina shrimp tank. I keep having shrimp die. The shrimp came from another one of my tanks where they have been breeding for 5+ years. The biggest difference between the two tanks looks to be pH. The new tank has Stratum and the existing tank has sand. I attached new tank test strip results and a liquid pH test result. The test strips are Aquarium Co-op and the liquid is the API test kit. The kit does expire next month and the test strips were purchased 6-12 months ago. I say this because the pH results between the two don't seem to match. The test strips look to be below 6.4 but the liquid kit seems to be 6.8+. It is kind of hard to get an exact number. Mt tap water is about 6.8 based on the Co-op test strips. Last week I added a half pound of crush coral and did a 50% water change. The tank is 10 gallons. Test results pre water change were the same as shown below. 3 more shrimp died over the week and I'm planning to put another half pound in to try to raise the pH and add buffer. The results are typical of all my tanks with off the charts GH but very little KH. Some of my tanks will register up to 40 KH with enough crushed coral.

Does anyone have thoughts on what else to do and has another else seen this difference between the API liquid test and the Co-op test strips? Any advice would be appreciated.

And just to be clear, I have no idea which test is actually correct nor am I saying one is better than the other. I just have two tests that look to be reading noticeably different.

Thanks

Edited March 18, 2023 by Bill Ripley
Added additional details for size of tank and species of shrimp

[TeeJay]

I have similar water to you with high gh but zero kh out of the tap. I use crushed coral mixed with my gravel to help give me that kh buffer that I'm lacking. I'm not really familiar with stratum substrate but to me that's the difference that I'm noticing. I know others on the forum are more versed in that. @nabokovfan87 @JettsPapa @fishfolk221 maybe they can give some insight.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:37 PM, Bill Ripley said:

The test strips look to be below 6.4 but the liquid kit seems to be 6.8+

Then you'd go by KH. Whichever makes sense with a particular KH value is the one seemingly giving you the correct value.

If KH is 0 and PH is 7.5+ then clearly something isn't right.  Water might not have off gassed or there's other things going on.

..... alright, looking at your test results what I see is:

High GH, 0 KH, very low PH (around 6.0, but off the bottom of the scale)

On the API test, it's difficult to tell, could be 6.8 or could be 7.0. 

Is there CO2 being dosed into the tank that would cause the low PH value?

On 3/18/2023 at 2:37 PM, Bill Ripley said:

Some of my tanks will register up to 40 KH with enough crushed coral.

You're probably looking at 1.5-2 lbs per 10G for this tank in question. It might be easier to use alkalinity buffer, but that is entirely up to your setup.  I would opt for 60-80 KH in a tank with invertebrates or heavy feeding of calcium based foods for them.

When you say shrimp are dying and with these results, my gut tells me that you're basically looking at molting issues due to deficiency.

Stratum would buffer the tank down and is really only recommended for Caridina shrimp, not neocaridina shrimp.

Marks shrimp tank's has a video on stratum specifically compared to the substrate he uses. Depending on the volume of substrate in question I think ultimately you'd want to opt for a substrate swap and then adding something like crushed coral (start small and increase as need be) until you're happy with the values.

On 3/18/2023 at 2:37 PM, Bill Ripley said:

Does anyone have thoughts on what else to do and has another else seen this difference between the API liquid test and the Co-op test strips? Any advice would be appreciated.

A. Take a small tub and some fresh tap water.

B. Take an ACO strip and cut it in half so you get two tests if you don't want to use two.
C. Add a cup of substrate to that sample of tap water. Draining as much of the tank water off as you can. Retest and compare.
D. Leave it for 24-48 hours, preferably with an air stone, and then retest.

This will give you an idea specifically of how the substrate is altering your water.  In terms of Neos you're usually trying to target 6.8-7.5 for PH and 0-10 for dKH.

@kneeo has very similar water. Can you chime in with your view here on what's causing issues?

On 3/18/2023 at 2:37 PM, Bill Ripley said:

The new tank has Stratum and the existing tank has sand.

Inert vs. active substrate being the cause for the change in parameters is likely what's going on.

Edited March 19, 2023 by nabokovfan87
spacing issue (mobile)

[nabokovfan87]

Could also have been residue in the test tube that caused the PH test to give a higher result.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I would say the deaths have more to do with the lack of stability and that the tanks not been aged enough. A 3 months old tank with lots of algae and biofilm is what any neocaridina needs that’s why they were so successful in that other tank for 5 years. I would adjust your parameters to be closer to your other tank, let the plants, substrate and hard scape mature and then in another 2-3 months try again. 

[tolstoy21]

I have very similar water, and my Ph usually sits somewhere between 6.4 - 6.8.

I keep Orange Rili neocaridinas  in these conditions and they have been thriving. 

The only thing you need to be aware of is that without any Kh, the Ph can drop lower if there is a build up of organics. So keep the water fresh and the tank clean and it will remain stable.

[Bill Ripley]

No CO2 being dosed. The tank is decently aged. Has live plants and the glass has decent algae. I let it run with plants in it for about 8 weeks before I started adding in the shrimp.

On 3/18/2023 at 9:32 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Could also have been residue in the test tube that caused the PH test to give a higher result.

I used a fresh test tube and only pulled water from that tank to keep the sample clean.

Sounds like getting the pH to rise is the next step. I did test my other tank with the ACO strips and added the image. The pH is a little below 6.8 but definitely higher than the new tank. It also has some buffer to it.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:58 PM, Bill Ripley said:

Sounds like getting the pH to rise is the next step. I did test my other tank with the ACO strips and added the image. The pH is a little below 6.8 but definitely higher than the new tank. It also has some buffer to it.

It's definitely on the low side of stable. (About 20 ppm KH)

What does your tap look like? I can test mine if you want as well, it's extremely similar. I've got one tank with seiryu stone and the other with a lot of organics (wood). But overall they both have inactive substrate and are pretty similar with the buffers I use.

Knee lives close to me, has evenower KH water but again, very similar.

As far as OTS goes, based on using water changes to keep KH to match your tap... Do you think you're changing enough water often enough in both tanks?

[Bill Ripley]

Added my tap water image. KH is about 40. I do have a small amount of driftwood in the established tank with the sand bottom.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:26 PM, Bill Ripley said:

Added my tap water image. KH is about 40. I do have a small amount of driftwood in the established tank with the sand bottom.

It was one of Cory's vlogs when he was doing fishroom updates, essentially trying to keep up with the KH in the tank by doing enough water changes and for the sake of stability he added CC to the substrate.

Entirely up to you and how you want to handle it, but we have pretty much exactly the same water it looks like.  I use 3*1/8 tsp of seachem alkalinity buffer per 5gallons during a water change. Sometimes it's 2.5 scoops, usually it's a bit more like 3.5 scoops.  In that range should get you to stable as long as you're doing everything else to your advantage.

The new tank I'm setting up is going to have some active soil, but no neo shrimp in it as of now. It might eventually be a cull tank if need be.

Here's my results for comparison.

 

GH is lower because of the rain and snow last 2-3 months

[knee]

The stratum is not done buffering the water. It can take a few more months before the soil loses buffering capacity (3-6 months). Adding crushed coral can probably help speed up this process. 

[Miska]

Thank you so much for posting this. And for everyone replying.

 I’m having a much similar issue but no deaths of shrimp. No breeding either though. 
 

I use seachem alkalinity buffer but my ph spiked. @nabokovfan87 has had amazing advice and it is helping my tanks. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Miska

[Bill Ripley]

Thanks for the advise. I'll pick up the Alkaline Buffer and try it out. I put more crushed coral in the tank as well. I'm also considering pulling the Stratum out of the tank as it sounds like I'm in a losing effort using it with my water.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:13 AM, Bill Ripley said:

I'm also considering pulling the Stratum out of the tank as it sounds like I'm in a losing effort using it with my water.

It might be perfectly fine, but just something to consider and research into. 🙂

On 3/18/2023 at 10:23 PM, knee said:

The stratum is not done buffering the water. It can take a few more months before the soil loses buffering capacity (3-6 months). Adding crushed coral can probably help speed up this process.

It might just be a matter of time and adding buffer/coral to get through the initial buffering impact.

[knee]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:13 AM, Bill Ripley said:

Thanks for the advise. I'll pick up the Alkaline Buffer and try it out. I put more crushed coral in the tank as well. I'm also considering pulling the Stratum out of the tank as it sounds like I'm in a losing effort using it with my water.

I’d just keep up with the water changes and let the tank run with just plants until the buffering stops. You’ll get the same buffering with other types of aquasoil.