How Much Filtration Do Plants Add?

[FLFishChik]

I’m curious as to roughly how much filtration plants actually add. According to aqadvisor, I’m at 98% capacity in my 29g running a Topfin Silent Stream 30 HOB and an ACO Medium Sponge Filter (20g and up, so I went with minimum capacity of 20g when entering it into the aqadvisor site). I know plants add some filtration but I’m not sure just how much. I want to add some fish but am unsure if I can.

current stock:

4 Panda Cory

14 Cardinal Tetra

3 otocinclus 

3 Albino Cory (but they’ll be moving )

5 Nerite snail

4 ghost shrimp. 
 

plants:

Pearl Weed 

Vallisneria 

Pogostemon Stellatus Octopus 

Water Sprite

Java Fern

Java Fern Windelov 

Anubias Barteri 

Argentine Sword 

Aponogeton Crispus

Red Dwarf Aquarium Lily

The 3 Albino Cory will be moving tanks and I want to add 6 more Panda Cory and 20 Chili Rasbora. Is this possible? 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I believe the answer to your question differs greatly depending on density of plants, and types of plants. A tank FULL of PSO and other fast growing plants will do more for filtration than a tank of Anubius will. Assuming you have a jungle (max capacity of filtration), and then you chop half of it out, you now have less plant filtration. 
 

As far as your question regarding your fish, it sounds totally doable to me. Just be ready to do potentially more frequent water changes or bigger water changes depending on the load. Sounds like a fun tank if you ask me. 

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

Fast growing plants will filter more. Terrestrial plants will filter more. My tanks with terrestrials need dry ferts because they get yellow from lack of nitrogen, iron or any number of things that they strip from the water. Also, I have to put coral in there because the pH begins to drop from the carbonic acid they secrete from their roots. Plants can filter A LOT (roughly). Often these tanks only have an air stone for water movement....

Edited January 26, 2023 by Expectorating_Aubergine

[Remi de Groot]

I think water testing is the key here and not some internet wisedom.

Just keep adding some fish in over time and see how the tank is handeling the new bioload.
Test every couple of days to see the changes in your parameters.
When the parameters go up just estimate how much water you have to change and if you are able to handle the amount of changes.
This will be probably different for everyone. So the amount of fish/filtration in a tank will be different for everyone as well.

Personally i know i'll be skipping water changes once in a while in a busy period.
So i try to keep my tanks a bit lower in stock and heavier planted so there won't be any harm in skipping the water change.
I know other people are just fine with big water changes daily.
 

[Lennie]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:04 PM, Remi de Groot said:

I think water testing is the key here and not some internet wisedom.

I agree with this one. My tank is overstocked, but also densely planted. 

I keep schools of rummy noses, pygmy cories, sterbais, L199 and a honey gourami with lots of snails and shrimps in a 29g. All I see at the end of the week before weekly water changes is 20 nitrate.

But I should say, most of my plants are fast growers in that tank, especially the elodea, duckweed and salvinia as floaters. Most people hate duckweed, but it is a great assistant as much as it can be annoying sometimes. 

The key IMO is, introducing fish very slowly(I took months between additions of schools), keeping lots of fast growing but especially floating plants, and planning your water changes based on your nitrate readings. 

So in short, I would get the floating plant(s) you like the look of, and keep testing nitrate readings and plan my water changes accordingly.

 

Meanwhile, as a suggestion, If I were to add any fish, I would increase the panda cory school just as you said, but I would get maybe one centerpiece fish instead of a school of 20 rasboras. I think 14 cardinal as a middle column swimmer in a 20g is enough, as cardinals are not really that small in size when grown. Do you enjoy small sized centerpiece fishes? 🙂 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Lennie

[FLFishChik]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:23 AM, Lennie said:

I agree with this one. My tank is overstocked, but also densely planted. 

I keep schools of rummy noses, pygmy cories, sterbais, L199 and a honey gourami with lots of snails and shrimps in a 29g. All I see at the end of the week before weekly water changes is 20 nitrate.

But I should say, most of my plants are fast growers in that tank, especially the elodea, duckweed and salvinia as floaters. Most people hate duckweed, but it is a great assistant as much as it can be annoying sometimes. 

The key IMO is, introducing fish very slowly(I took months between additions of schools), keeping lots of fast growing but especially floating plants, and planning your water changes based on your nitrate readings. 

So in short, I would get the floating plant(s) you like the look of, and keep testing nitrate readings and plan my water changes accordingly.

 

Meanwhile, as a suggestion, If I were to add any fish, I would increase the panda cory school just as you said, but I would get maybe one centerpiece fish instead of a school of 20 rasboras. I think 14 cardinal as a middle column swimmer in a 20g is enough, as cardinals are not really that small in size when grown. Do you enjoy small sized centerpiece fishes? 🙂 

I am planning on adding very slowly. My tank is actually 29g running 2 filters- a Topfin Silentstream 30 and and ACO Medium Sponge Filter, plus the plants I’ve mentioned. I may wait awhile until some of the fast growing plants grow and spread. As is now, I water change every 3-4 weeks when nitrates reach 50ppm. I definitely will be adding the Pandas to increase their group. The Chili Rasbora were just something I’ve always wanted to keep a larger school of, so they may or may not go in- instead, I may try to increase the Cardinal school.

[Lennie]

Frankly, I think filtration is a bit overreacted topic in general. I have been using only one HOB that is good for my tank capacity, and filled it with sponge, filter wool and lots of seachem matrix and sera mini, and prefilter sponge on the intake. Never ever had a filtration problem myself ever even in my overstocked tanks. But keeping an extra sponge filter for better circulation and to move it for quarantine tanks/ another tank in an emergency situation sounds like a good idea for sure. 

My worry would be fish having enough space to enjoy more than filteration. One HOB with full of media and one another sponge filter is like, a lot of filtreation anyway. I have never kept 2 big groups of schooling tetras/rasboras in a 29g, so I can't say whether it is a good idea or not. I'm not sure if keeping around 30 fish from 2 different schools in middle column in a 29g is a good idea.

Even sometimes my 10 rummynose school and pygmy cories together seem crowded in a 29g.

Maybe someone with experience of keeping such stocking may help. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Lennie

[FLFishChik]

On 1/26/2023 at 7:05 AM, Lennie said:

Frankly, I think filtration is a bit overreacted topic in general. I have been using only one HOB that is good for my tank capacity, and filled it with sponge, filter wool and lots of seachem matrix and sera mini, and prefilter sponge on the intake. Never ever had a filtration problem myself ever even in my overstocked tanks. But keeping an extra sponge filter for better circulation and to move it for quarantine tanks/ another tank in an emergency situation sounds like a good idea for sure. 

My worry would be fish having enough space to enjoy more than filteration. One HOB with full of media and one another sponge filter is like, a lot of filtreation anyway. I have never kept 2 big groups of schooling tetras/rasboras in a 29g, so I can't say whether it is a good idea or not. I'm not sure if keeping around 30 fish from 2 different schools in middle column in a 29g is a good idea.

Even sometimes my 10 rummynose school and pygmy cories together seem crowded in a 29g.

Maybe someone with experience of keeping such stocking may help. 

Makes sense. I think I’ll forgo the Chili Rasbora and stick to adding a few more Panda Cory and a few more Cardinals!

[Lennie]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:11 PM, FLFishChik said:

Makes sense. I think I’ll forgo the Chili Rasbora and stick to adding a few more Panda Cory and a few more Cardinals!

If you ask my opinion, it sounds good to me! 🙂 Or maybe keep cardinals on 14 and add a peaceful centerpiece fish. Whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy schooling more than centerpieces, go for it! I'm more into the puppy behavior when it comes to fish 😄

Just make sure to keep your readings okay and keeping up with water changes/maintenance.

I personally gravel vac every week. It may sound like a lot for some people, I don't mind the maintenance. It really comes to a personal preference of keeping up with maintenance at that point!

cheers,

[FLFishChik]

On 1/26/2023 at 7:37 AM, Lennie said:

If you ask my opinion, it sounds good to me! 🙂 Or maybe keep cardinals on 14 and add a peaceful centerpiece fish. Whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy schooling more than centerpieces, go for it! I'm more into the puppy behavior when it comes to fish 😄

Just make sure to keep your readings okay and keeping up with water changes/maintenance.

I personally gravel vac every week. It may sound like a lot for some people, I don't mind the maintenance. It really comes to a personal preference of keeping up with maintenance at that point!

cheers,

I gravel vac weekly, but I only do water changes when nitrates reach 50ppm. Gravel vac only takes a couple gallons so I don’t really consider that a “water change”😁

Edited January 26, 2023 by FLFishChik

[TOtrees]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:04 AM, Remi de Groot said:

Personally i know i'll be skipping water changes once in a while in a busy period.
So i try to keep my tanks a bit lower in stock and heavier planted so there won't be any harm in skipping the water change.

Major wisdom here. 

 

On 1/26/2023 at 7:55 AM, FLFishChik said:

I gravel vac weekly, but I only do water changes when nitrates reach 50ppm.

I'd go the other way, and do regular water changes to get your nitrates around 20-30, and gravel vac as necessary. A decent amount of mulm in your gravel will be great for the cories [edit to note that the mulm itself isn't necessarily good for the cories, but it supports a lot of microfauna which the cories will love to find, snuffle through and eat], and your plants will love it too. 

Re your original question, and good gauge of how much filtration your plants are doing is how often you have to remove plant material. Just having the plants isn't what 'cleans' the water, it's the plants actually growing, which they do by taking nitrogenous compounds including ammonia and/or nitrates out of the water (or mulm, or dirt, or whatever) [edit to clarify that plants require/use N-compounds as they grow, not as the main ingredient or material for their growth, which is carbon pulled from CO2]. I don't want to rain on your parade, but I think your tank (based on the pic above) needs a lot more plant growth before you can rely on any added "filtration" from the plants. This is the great double-edged sword (pun intended) of planted tanks, at least where the plants are there to contribute to cleaning. The plants that do the most leg work easily take over. Duckweed and hornwort are at the top of my list for these. They are true heroes at eating nitrates, but having them comes at a cost (maintenance, competition, crowding). 

In terms of stocking, I'd recommend against another school. 14 cardinals in a 20 isn't overdoing it, but I don't know if I'd be adding to that. How about a couple dozen cherry shrimp, for those random all-over-the-place pops of color? 

Edited January 26, 2023 by TOtrees

[Lennie]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:25 PM, TOtrees said:

How about a couple dozen cherry shrimp, for those random all-over-the-place pops of color? 

I personally  would say no to cherry shrimp in that tank.

Cardinals get big, and there is no real plant/moss cover or valid hiding spots in the tank, especially for any potential babys. Besides that, even adults would be super vulnarable during molting time without a good cover or hiding spots.  Introducing them seem like a live food in this tank imo.

The tank needs to be very densely planted and preferably has lots of moss, and should include lots of cover/hiding spots.

I would personally skip small shrimp in a tank that you can see more than like 30% of the substrate with a look, assuming the rest is like a jungle.

 

Also I don't know how ghost shrimp-neocaridina shrimp would do. Never kept a ghost myself

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Lennie

[FLFishChik]

On 1/26/2023 at 12:15 PM, Lennie said:

I personally  would say no to cherry shrimp in that tank.

Cardinals get big, and there is no real plant/moss cover or valid hiding spots in the tank, especially for any potential babys. Besides that, even adults would be super vulnarable during molting time without a good cover or hiding spots.  Introducing them seem like a live food in this tank imo.

The tank needs to be very densely planted and preferably has lots of moss, and should include lots of cover/hiding spots.

I would personally skip small shrimp in a tank that you can see more than like 30% of the substrate with a look, assuming the rest is like a jungle.

 

Also I don't know how ghost shrimp-neocaridina shrimp would do. Never kept a ghost myself

 

 

The ghost shrimp I have are bigger than the Cardinal Tetra.lol

[Bill]

Plants remove nitrates, which can reduce the need for water changes, but filtration to me usually implies biological filtration, removing ammonia and nitrite. For that you want water flow and a large surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow, whether it be sponge filters, canisters or HOB with sponges and other good bio media. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Bill

[FLFishChik]

Well, I’ve decided to let the plants fill in a bit more (propagate and possibly purchase more) then go from there!

[MattyM]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:37 PM, Bill said:

removing ammonia and nitrite

Plants eat this stuff too! 

[Eric W-Farmhouse Fish Room]

Don't have much to add, except that I'll agree filtration tends to get overblown.  A well seasoned tank, especially a well seasoned planted tank, does not need as much as you think it does (in my opinion).

FWIW, your tank looks great!  Keep it up!

[GoDawgsGo]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:29 PM, Eric W-Farmhouse Fish Room said:

Don't have much to add, except that I'll agree filtration tends to get overblown.  A well seasoned tank, especially a well seasoned planted tank, does not need as much as you think it does (in my opinion).

FWIW, your tank looks great!  Keep it up!

Been watching Father Fish on YT. I've been doing his setup without even knowing it until recently. Fluval Stratum and some crushed lava rock as a base in media bags with holes big enough for roots, topped with Flourite black sand. 6" in the back total and 4" in the front. Heavily planted and probably over stocked, two Marineland PRO 400s with the cartridges full of Matrix and Biomax rings. I don't ever need to do water changes, it's self sustaining at this point. My nitrates went up to like 20 the last time I added fish but are usually at 0.

But then again a bunch of people in this thread saying they use gravel as a substrate, which is just a terrible idea for planted tanks.

[FLFishChik]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:29 PM, Eric W-Farmhouse Fish Room said:

Don't have much to add, except that I'll agree filtration tends to get overblown.  A well seasoned tank, especially a well seasoned planted tank, does not need as much as you think it does (in my opinion).

FWIW, your tank looks great!  Keep it up!

Thanks! Im trying to get it a bit more jungly... It's a slow process, lol!

On 1/26/2023 at 6:43 PM, GoDawgsGo said:

Been watching Father Fish on YT. I've been doing his setup without even knowing it until recently. Fluval Stratum and some crushed lava rock as a base in media bags with holes big enough for roots, topped with Flourite black sand. 6" in the back total and 4" in the front. Heavily planted and probably over stocked, two Marineland PRO 400s with the cartridges full of Matrix and Biomax rings. I don't ever need to do water changes, it's self sustaining at this point. My nitrates went up to like 20 the last time I added fish but are usually at 0.

But then again a bunch of people in this thread saying they use gravel as a substrate, which is just a terrible idea for planted tanks.

I use grave and havent really had any issue with anything rooting. I do use root tabs tho, so there's that. I suppose with stratum you don't really need that, but gravel work for me.

[GoDawgsGo]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:51 PM, FLFishChik said:

Thanks! Im trying to get it a bit more jungly... It's a slow process, lol!

I use grave and havent really had any issue with anything rooting. I do use root tabs tho, so there's that. I suppose with stratum you don't really need that, but gravel work for me.

It's not about rooting, it's about growing anaerobic bacteria as opposed to just aerobic bacteria.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by GoDawgsGo
Word

[FLFishChik]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:59 PM, GoDawgsGo said:

It's not about rooting, it's about growing anaerobic bacteria as opposed to just aerobic bacteria.

 

 

Cool, I've seen a few of his videos, he has some fascinating content for sure. I don't know that gravel is a 'terrible' idea. Lot's of hobbyists use it as their substrate and it seems to work for them, but they also probably have deep layers with other types of substrates. At this point I wouldn't know what to layer with it and I'm not about to disrupt the tank to try and take it all out.

Edited January 27, 2023 by FLFishChik

[JettsPapa]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:16 PM, FLFishChik said:

I’m curious as to roughly how much filtration plants actually add. . . 

They add enough that I don't have any mechanical filtration or water movement in the 5.5 gallon tank on my desk at work.  The only thing that consumes electricity is the light.  The water is crystal clear, and I removed around 70 shrimp from it a few days ago, and there are probably that many left.

It doesn't have any fish in it right now, but it's had guppies and endlers in it in the past.

[JJenna]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:01 PM, Expectorating_Aubergine said:

My tanks with terrestrials need dry ferts

What do you use for dry ferts Going to be starting some tradescantia this weekend and wondered if EG/Iron/Trace was going to be enough. 

[Lennie]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:43 AM, GoDawgsGo said:

Fluval Stratum and some crushed lava rock as a base in media bags with holes big enough for roots, topped with Flourite black sand. 6" in the back total and 4" in the front. Heavily planted and probably over stocked, two Marineland PRO 400s with the cartridges full of Matrix and Biomax rings. I don't ever need to do water changes, it's self sustaining at this point. My nitrates went up to like 20 the last time I added fish but are usually at 0.

But then again a bunch of people in this thread saying they use gravel as a substrate, which is just a terrible idea for planted tanks.

Water changes are not only related to nitrate levels tho. Nitrate levels are indeed a sign of water change time and helps you set on an approximate schedule over time, but I don't think we can limit the potential benefits of water changes with nitrate readings. We can just use nitrate levels to show it is a must do. So I don't think we should see water changes as a negative thing. When you consider the nature and the constant circulation/movement of water, it is usually not sitting just like it does in our small tanks at home. Plants absorving x element from the water does not mean it is self sufficient. Water changes can be a life saver sometimes.

 

Also I believe that, a tank is not really exactly "self sustaining", as long as you are feeding the creatures in the tank, adding fertilizers, or making any sort of external touches. If everything is recycling and going on a cycle inside the tank including food, plants are the only source of oxygen, fish and bacteria are the only source of co2, etc., then maybe. But in my eyes, aerating, feeding, fertilizing, using man-made filtering, topping up the water, etc. are not really different than doing water changes. They all affect the tank with an external touch anyway. 

 

Gravels are not the most suitable planted tank substrate for sure, but they are also not "terrible". It is usually beginner friendly, or helps to people who does not wanna spend a lot of money, or just like the look of it, or maybe helps to have an easy maintenance time sometimes. It is not always black and white when it comes to fish keeping. Especially considering his tank is already set and running. 

Calling a gravel substrate terrible for many people who wanna try easy plants disencouraging, especially when coming from the anaerobic bacteria perspective. I'm not sure to what extend anyone needs it as long as you don't mind some maintenance. But again, water changes are not nitrate specific in general anyway.

People are just trying to be helpful about a running tank. Trying to look at from this perspective might help a little to understand why noone called the gravel terrible in previous comments

P.S: densely planted tank, dirted bottom, can survive without any water changes in an overstocked tank guy here.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Lennie

[mynameisnobody]

@Lennie Respect