Overweight Betta?

[Scaperoot]

Our female Betta shares a 20 gallon (long) with about 10 cpds. How do I ensure the cpds are well fed without over feeding the Betta. I got Daenerys about 3 months ago. She was tiny and had very little color. I usually feed frozen baby brine, and some krill flakes from time to time. Her belly worries me. I feed her 6 times a week, in the evenings. 

[Stef]

Gosh, that’s a big belly. Is she acting/swimming normal?  Any pineconing?  
Could you try to distract her with a floating betta mirror? While she’s flaring at her reflection, feed the CPDs. I’ve had some females who did this behavior similar to males. 

[Janoš Bećar Pecaroš]

To me, that looks a lot more series than just an overweight fish.

[Scaperoot]

She is behaving normally, swimming well. No pineconing. I'll have to get a mirror to try and distract her. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

@Colu @Odd Duck @xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I saw this post but wasn't sure I knew what I was looking at as other than Dropsy (which IME/IMO is incurable) in past I've not treated Betta bloating. My understanding is there are a few causes to bloating, Dropsy, Swim Bladder, Constipation. If we truly believe it's caused by food (and she's not just very fat from eating too much which is entirely possible) then she'd have to be treated for one of the other two.

If she's swimming normally then the only other option is Constipation. Have you seen her pooping? If not this could be the issue. You can do 1 of 2 things (or both). If she is constipated feed her freeze dried or frozen Daphnia- kind of like eating prunes for us it will help her pass a stool. Also you can try Epsom Salt soaks for 10-15 mins for 3-5 days depending on whether it seems to be helping and not stressful for her. Epsom salt (PLAIN no oils or other additives found in pharmacies, cheap) 1 TBSP per 1 Gallon. I keep a gallon handy, just pour a little into a high sided container, just enough water the fish can be comfortable but can't jump out, net or if possible catch her by hand (for delicate fins) and set a timer. 

You might consider getting her her own tank. I get it, most of us want a community tank with a Betta- but sometimes for their own health they need to be separated out. I have 3 Betta solo and 1 Betta in a community tank- the one in the Community tank- well she's getting pretty fat because I leave food for the Hillstream Loach. I have considered that she may need to be moved in the future. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Typos suck.

[Odd Duck]

This looks very bad, unfortunately.  I am very concerned for potential cancer in this kiddo.  There are other causes of a distended belly as @xXInkedPhoenixXlisted, and I would add intestinal parasites to that list.  But in many species of animal, when there is this much distention of the body cavity but they are otherwise fairly normal, a benign tumor is most likely.  Now, medically, we use the term benign in a couple ways.  Typically it means a tumor that does not grow aggressively, doesn’t tend to invade other tissues, doesn’t tend to spread through the blood, doesn’t break open inside the body cavity and spread cancer cells, doesn’t secrete hormones that disrupt body functions, could be removed with minimal risk of new tumors showing up locally or throughout the body, etc.  Malignant cancers can behave in all the ways I just listed benign tumors don’t do, and more.

The kicker here, is that benign tumors can grow slowly, without affecting other tissues too significantly so other symptoms don’t arise, but if they grow inside an e closely area (vs. on or just under the skin), they can start to act in a more malignant way just because they become a space occupying mass.  I’ve seen enormous tumors removed from dog’s abdomens that had not spread anywhere else, did not cause future problems, etc, because they were benign, but eventually just got large enough to cause symptoms.  Dogs are prone to meningiomas- benign tumors of the tissues surrounding the brain.  But they grow slowly and steadily, then eventually cause severe symptoms because they’re taking up space inside the skull and start putting pressure on the normal brain tissue.  Benign abdominal tumors do the same thing.

I’m concerned your girl may have a benign tumor in her coelom (body cavity) for it to get this large without causing other symptoms.

There are treatments you can try just in case it’s not a tumor.  Do a set of weekly deworming treatments in case of intestinal parasites.  Use both Levamisole and Praziquantal - I’ll put the regimen below - pardon the format, it’s how it copies from “Notes” and it’s challenging to change the font while on my iPad.  Also try some Daphnia at least twice weekly - live or frozen, some fish will take freeze dried since their chitin will tend to “clean things out”.  Without other symptoms, antibiotics are unlikely to help, but if no response to other treatments and she still looks OK, it might be worth trying Maracyn-2 (Minocycline).

If she was a bigger fish, it might be worth taking her to a vet that sees fish so they could get radiographs or potentially try doing an ultrasound of her coelom, but it would take a special ultrasound probe for such a tiny fish.  It would be incredibly challenging to do an intracoelomic surgery on such a small fish - even good sized goldfish are a challenge.  On such a tiny fish, it would be microsurgery plus with a very high risk anesthesia.  And the expense would be formidable unless you could get a massive discount at a university vet college.

I wish I had better news for you, but I’m afraid her long term prognosis is grim.

 

Deworming

Siphon out debris from the bottom before and after dosing to remove any expelled worms, eggs, debris, etc.  Levamisole is inactivated by organic debris and by light, so dose after lights out and black out the tank for 24 hours, remove organics via water changes and cleaning the bottom of debris as much as possible.

It’s likely that levamisole does what it can do within the first hour, but best to follow directions precisely.  If you have a bare bottom hospital tank available, it might be best and easiest to transfer the fish to that tank for the duration of treatment - up to 5 weeks total treatment time if doing 3 doses of praziquantal.

Levamisole treatment should be weekly for 4 treatments.  Praziquantal treatment should be every other week (at least) for 2-3 treatments and it is left in for a week at a time.  It can be dosed the day after levamisole treatment.  Remove any carbon or Purigen from filters before dosing.

Have enough dechlorinated water to do a 50% water change immediately if any adverse symptoms are seen in the fish.

A typical treatment regimen: 

1. 50% water change with careful siphoning of debris from the bottom of the tank.

2. Dose with levamisole and black out the tank for 24 hours.  Then 50% water change siphoning the entire bottom of the tank.

3. Dose with praziquantal directly after the second 50% WC.

4. One week later, 50% water change siphoning the bottom thoroughly.  Dose with levamisole following directions in step 1-2.

5. One week later (start of week 3 of treatment), repeat all steps 1-4 over another 2 weeks time.

6. Repeat all steps 1-5, then do last WC one week later after third dose of praziquantal.

Not all snails will tolerate treatments, so best to remove any snails in the tank.

 

Condensed, weekly schedule:

Week 1: siphon debris and do 50% water change, levamisole x 24 hrs, siphon.  Treat with praziquantal and leave in until next week.

Week 2: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon.

Week 3: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi.

Week 4: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon.

Week 5: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi.

Week 6: siphon.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck thank you, I still concede it was beyond what I've seen before so only offered generic advice. She does look large and oddly shaped. Question: in a case of tumors are these typically symetrical or asymetrical or is that even something that can be an indicator at all? Is there a clue that would tell you tumor before bloating from some other source (swim bladder or constipation)? 

Edited January 11, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I give my betta Geppetto some daphnia once a week just as a preventative, to keep him regular 🙂

Thanks @xXInkedPhoenixX and @Odd Duck for helping out on this thread ❤️

[Scaperoot]

This is pretty disheartening. I haven't seen her poop lately, so I'm hopeful this is just constipation. I'll pick up Daphnia today. Thank you for all the advice. I've never had a female Betta before, so I didn't know what to expect as far as her growth, but I know this isn't normal. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Good luck!!. Betta are wonderful but very difficult fish to keep. I hope she doesn't have a tumor. 😞

[Odd Duck]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:50 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck thank you, I still concede it was beyond what I've seen before so only offered generic advice. She does look large and oddly shaped. Question: in a case of tumors are these typically symetrical or asymetrical or is that even something that can be an indicator at all? Is there a clue that would tell you tumor before bloating from some other source (swim bladder or constipation)? 

Tumors don’t follow rules much at all.  They can be surprisingly symmetrical but are more often irregular, either by size, shape, color, texture, etc, etc.  Tumors are tumors because the cells stop listening to the normal biofeedback that tells cells to stop dividing or stop producing a hormone, or stop whatever it is that’s making them misbehave.  It is completely normal for cells to die, then one of the neighbor cells will divide to fill the space, or to heal a cut, etc.  Or cells normally shed - like skin cells or the cells that line the gastrointestinal tract or respiratory system - completely normal.  Neighbor cells are no longer getting the touch receptors triggered, cells are prompted to divide to fill in the space until the cells are touching again, then they’re supposed to quit dividing. There are also other types of signals, like anemia triggering red blood cell precursors to divide and replace the missing cells from blood loss or whatever is causing the anemia.  Cellular messenger chemicals that trigger extra production of white blood cells to fight infection, to mention a couple other triggers.

In cancer cells, they have mutated and are no longer listening to the normal feedback from neighboring cells - “Hey, we’re crowded now, stop dividing, we already filled in the space.” Or messages from the chemical receptors that tell the bone marrow, “We have enough oxygen now, you can slow back down to normal on producing red blood cells”, or “The infection is clear, we don’t need extra white blood cells anymore, slow production back to normal.”  We even see micro tumors that secrete hormones that can really cause severe symptoms with only small numbers of cells.  Those tumors can be trickier to find since they aren’t large enough to feel or see on radiographs or ultrasound.  They aren’t listening to hormonal feedback and just keep producing hormones when that hormone is already over abundant.  Those nearly always require specialty testing to find.

OK, this is what happens when I post after work still in work brain.  Got a little side-tracked, but it might be interesting and worth reading for some so I’ll leave it.

Back to this girl, her coelom is extremely distended and she has minimal symptoms.  She is also rather irregularly distended and looks a bit lumpy.  Surprisingly minimal symptoms with this much distention is why I’m far more worried about a tumor (likely benign but so large it starts to cause symptoms) than I am about other potential issues.  Without testing, I can’t be certain that’s what it is, so recommended the deworming and Daphnia to potentially resolve the most treatable of the issues that can cause distention.  If she had any other symptoms, I be more likely to recommend antibiotics.  For now, dewormer and Daphnia, see what happens.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/12/2023 at 3:02 AM, Odd Duck said:

this is what happens when I post after work still in work brain.  Got a little side-tracked, but it might be interesting and worth reading for some so I’ll leave it.

I think it's interesting 🙂 

[Any Huit]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:35 PM, Scaperoot said:

Our female Betta shares a 20 gallon (long) with about 10 cpds. How do I ensure the cpds are well fed without over feeding the Betta. I got Daenerys about 3 months ago. She was tiny and had very little color. I usually feed frozen baby brine, and some krill flakes from time to time. Her belly worries me. I feed her 6 times a week, in the evenings. 

Hi,

I hope you don't mind if I also ask a question about my female betta in your thread!

Do you have any updates to share about Daenerys?

Im asking bc I'm in a very similar boat! My blue female betta Mermista looks exactly the same for 1 month now. I've tried kanaplex - both putting it in the water & feeding it with frozen daphnia - epsom salt baths, and now maracyn II. I've changed the water and added tannins. Nothing I do seems to be working! I've fasted her for 5 days, took a break to feed her frozen brine shrimp and daphnia and soaked hikari pellets (only 2 at a time), and then fasted again. She's acting very normal, she enjoys swimming around her 10 gallon a lot and still has a big appetite, the only issue is I cannot see if she's pooped. 

I haven't used paracleanse yet, I need to do a water change today, and then I can start treating for that too?

Here's a zoomed in picture of her sunbathing.

Does anyone else have any suggestions??

[Scaperoot]

Hi @Any Huit

 

   Sorry to hear about your Betta. 2 days ago, I thought our issue was overfeeding. Now I'm wondering if it's as bad as has been suggested. I'm holding out hope that it's constipation, since I can't remember the last time I saw her poop. I bought Daphnia yesterday after work and began feeding her some last night. Her behavior is perfectly normal so far. I hope we can each see our fish improve in the coming days. Keep us posted. 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/12/2023 at 9:16 AM, Any Huit said:

Hi,

I hope you don't mind if I also ask a question about my female betta in your thread!

Do you have any updates to share about Daenerys?

Im asking bc I'm in a very similar boat! My blue female betta Mermista looks exactly the same for 1 month now. I've tried kanaplex - both putting it in the water & feeding it with frozen daphnia - epsom salt baths, and now maracyn II. I've changed the water and added tannins. Nothing I do seems to be working! I've fasted her for 5 days, took a break to feed her frozen brine shrimp and daphnia and soaked hikari pellets (only 2 at a time), and then fasted again. She's acting very normal, she enjoys swimming around her 10 gallon a lot and still has a big appetite, the only issue is I cannot see if she's pooped. 

I haven't used paracleanse yet, I need to do a water change today, and then I can start treating for that too?

Here's a zoomed in picture of her sunbathing.

Does anyone else have any suggestions??

I would reach for Expel-P (Levamisole) first, then Paracleanse (Praziquantal) as fish are more likely to get roundworm/nematode type intestinal parasites than tapeworms or flukes.  You can start treating with both by following the regimen I posted earlier.  Your kiddo has a more symmetrical looking bulge so may have a bit more of a chance of parasites or constipation but there is always that chance of a more serious problem.  It’s worth trying the dewormers.  FYI, Kanamycin (Kanaplex) isn’t significantly absorbed from the GI tract so there isn’t anything gained from feeding it, just treat the water with that one.  The Maracyn-2 (Minocycline) is absorbed from the gut so it’s worth mixing that one into the food.  The Maracyn-2 is a better choice in this situation.

Do the dewormers, then if there’s still an enlarged belly, try the Maracyn-2 in food if you didn’t already try it in the food.  If you did try it in the food, then it makes a more serious problem a bit more likely.

I haven’t talked about egg binding in either of these girls since they usually have more bulging a bit more toward the back and slightly upward in the coelom if there is egg binding (which is actually quite uncommon despite some forums making it sound common).  It’s also very difficult to resolve egg-binding in female bettas since they don’t release eggs without a male triggering release.  As far as I know, you can’t milk the eggs out of a female betta and I wouldn’t try with either of these girls since the swelling is not characteristic of egg binding.  You would be far more likely to cause harm than accomplish anything and it might kill her outright.

[Scaperoot]

Just wanted to post an update. I’ve given her Daphnia for a few days. She fasted yesterday. I’m seeing a difference in her size. Her behavior is still normal. My wife noticed a white spot on her belly/underside. I noticed what seemed to be a bubble nest a couple days ago, but it was pretty close to the filter and didn’t last. Is it possible she’s carrying eggs in a grabid state? 

[Odd Duck]

Looks more like a possibility with the swelling shifting back.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Headed in the right direction.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Scaperoothow's fishy doing?

[Scaperoot]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:15 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

how's fishy doing?

Doing well! Still trying to figure out how to avoid overfeeding. She shares the tank with CPDs and golden minnows. I tried distracting her on one side of the tank while I fed the others, but she didn't fall for it lol. I do believe the Daphnia helped her get over some constipation. I appreciate everyone's input:) 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

That's great! This is one of the issues though of Betta in community tanks. They are far smarter and more prolific eaters in a tank such as this. You may want to consider putting tank fasting days on your schedule. One or 2 days a week will be fine for all of the inhabitants- and they can be different days. If she continues her journey to fish obesity, you may need to consider getting her her own tank.

 

Hoping it's nothing more serious!

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX