New to planted tanks and struggling

[Tactical Error]

Good morning!
 

I know this topic has been beat to death, however I’m about to admit defeat.   I’ve kept fish since the late 80’s, but live plants are new to me in the last six months or so.  I currently have two tanks running, a 45 high and a  20L, both are lit with Finnex Stingray 2’s.  Both are being dosed daily with Easy Carbon and root tabs are used, as well as dosing 2x/week with Easy Green, and both get 20 - 25%  water changes weekly.   I feed sparingly, although on the occasions when my husband feeds, he thinks they are starving and is a little more heavy handed.   The 45g is doing just fine, however, the 20L has become a algea farm of sorts.  
 

So, the back wall of the 20L is pretty much solid green ( hanging my head in shame…) and I also have algea in the from of green fuzzy tufts growing on the tops of the driftwood - obviously it’s closer to the light in those spots, so it stands to reason.  I suspect the light is way overkill for a tank that’s only 12” deep, and that I have some pretty nutrient dense water 😁.   In an effort to get some control, I’ve put two layers of tracing paper over the light to dim it a bit, and added some giant duckweed, as well as set my timer to be on for a couple hours in the morning, siesta mid day and come back on at 5pm until 10 pm.      
 

I’ve been lurking here for a while, and this forum seems to lack the rudeness of the others, so I’m humbly asking the collective here for your thoughts and experience- thanks in advance!  Pam

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Tactical Error,

Welcome to the forum!  I too have kept aquariums for decades but learned as you have that planted tanks required more learning on my behalf.

The 45 gallon high is 24" tall so the light intensity is much less by the time the light waves get down to the bottom of the tank.  The 20L is only 12-3/4 inches tall so the light intensity is much, much greater.  How much greater you ask?  I have a 45 high as well and with my light at full output I get a PAR reading (light intensity) of 130 at the substrate level.  If I measure the light intensity at 1bout 11" (the height of a 20L with substrate) I get a PAR reading of 205, or about 50% brighter!  Therefore, every hour the Finnex is running on the 20L it is putting in about 50% more light than it would be in the 45 high.  Mathematically for every hour you run your light on the 45H then you would only need to run the light 40 minutes on the 20L to provide equivalent light.  

You are on the right path by trying to cut down the light.  I do not have a Finnex Stingray II so I do not know if the output is adjustable or not.  If so, turn it down to about 1/2 maximum output.  If the output is not adjustable then either shortening the photoperiod, raising the light fixture, or blocking out excessive light (which you are doing) are three common ways of dealing with excessive light. 

I usually adjust my tanks this way.  I can my glass front, back, sides, top to bottom.  I run my light on a schedule for two weeks.  If I have a lot of algae after two weeks I clean all the glass again, cut the photoperiod back by one hour, and do another two week period.  Eventually I get to a point where I have minimum algae after a two week period.  (I always seem to have a little bit high on the glass that is closer to the light after two weeks.)

You stated you have some "have some pretty nutrient dense water", do you happen to know your water parameters such as nitrates (NO3), and phosphates (PO4)? 

I can tell you that if you can grow plants well with you 45 gallon you can do the same with your 20L, it just will take some adjustments.

Hope this helps!
 -Roy

Edited November 7, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:59 PM, Tactical Error said:

Good morning!
 

I know this topic has been beat to death, however I’m about to admit defeat.   I’ve kept fish since the late 80’s, but live plants are new to me in the last six months or so.  I currently have two tanks running, a 45 high and a  20L, both are lit with Finnex Stingray 2’s.  Both are being dosed daily with Easy Carbon and root tabs are used, as well as dosing 2x/week with Easy Green, and both get 20 - 25%  water changes weekly.   I feed sparingly, although on the occasions when my husband feeds, he thinks they are starving and is a little more heavy handed.   The 45g is doing just fine, however, the 20L has become a algea farm of sorts.  
 

So, the back wall of the 20L is pretty much solid green ( hanging my head in shame…) and I also have algea in the from of green fuzzy tufts growing on the tops of the driftwood - obviously it’s closer to the light in those spots, so it stands to reason.  I suspect the light is way overkill for a tank that’s only 12” deep, and that I have some pretty nutrient dense water 😁.   In an effort to get some control, I’ve put two layers of tracing paper over the light to dim it a bit, and added some giant duckweed, as well as set my timer to be on for a couple hours in the morning, siesta mid day and come back on at 5pm until 10 pm.      
 

I’ve been lurking here for a while, and this forum seems to lack the rudeness of the others, so I’m humbly asking the collective here for your thoughts and experience- thanks in advance!  Pam

Firstly; have you got any algae eaters in there?

Welcome to the forum!

[JoeQ]

It sounds like you are on the right path so I wouldn't make any massive changes. Maybe just add a good cleanup crew (nerite snails, otos) and if need be, scale back on fertilizers. In my expirence smaller tanks are much harder to balance. Good luck, keep us updated on your progress 

Edited November 6, 2022 by JoeQ
Follow

[ccurtis]

Small tanks are definitely harder to balance. Less water volume gives less of a buffer to mess around in. I think you are headed in the right direction by cutting the hours of your light and attempting to dim it. Give it some time, maybe 3 to 4 weeks and look for any changes. Scale back some on your ferts and monitor. Although it can be unsightly, remember algae isn't going to hurt anything. Nerite snails and otocinclus are great and assisting with cleaning up the algae as well. 

Another thing to remember, is it takes time for the changes to occur. As much as we all want things to be fixed instantly, they just don't happen that way. Depending on how you look at it though, that's half the fun. Make a small change and see what it does over time. If you need to dim the light even more, electrical tape works well to completely blackout portions of the light. 

Good luck, and keep us updated. 

[The Arthritic Aquarist]

I had a similar problem with my newest tank.  Had to play with the light and fert levels for some time before hitting the right balance (and even though I had Nerites).  Now the algae has abated and the plants are all doing well.

[The Arthritic Aquarist]

Just to add, you didn't mention what species of plants you had.  Light requirements will vary accordingly.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/6/2022 at 5:59 AM, Tactical Error said:

So, the back wall of the 20L is pretty much solid green ( hanging my head in shame…) and I also have algea in the from of green fuzzy tufts growing on the tops of the driftwood - obviously it’s closer to the light in those spots, so it stands to reason.  I suspect the light is way overkill for a tank that’s only 12” deep, and that I have some pretty nutrient dense water 😁.   In an effort to get some control, I’ve put two layers of tracing paper over the light to dim it a bit, and added some giant duckweed, as well as set my timer to be on for a couple hours in the morning, siesta mid day and come back on at 5pm until 10 pm.

Can you post some photos so we can see what type of algae it is?

Welcome to the forums, hopefully everyone here is able to help and get things improved so you're enjoying the hobby more!

[Comradovich]

1. As Cory has said in some of his planted tank livestreams, "if you're growing algae, then at least you've got something alive in your tank". Algae isn't pretty, but think of it more like a step towards what you actually want. You have proven to yourself that something you did created a result. We just have to refine that result a bit so that it becomes one you actually wanted.

2. Roy's probably got a good bead on your lighting situation, but I also think you might be overdosing your nutrients. You haven't told us much about your water. What's coming out of the tap? Can you test strip that and give us more to work with? Do your neighbors talk about any kinds of minerals in their tap water?

 

Let me give you my main display tank as a comparison. This isn't a backhanded way to brag about how much better I'm doing, but to show you what a tank that grows a fair number of plants, but not a ton of algae takes as far as maintenance.

First off, I suck at aquascaping. I'm probably also not doing a great job of planting things. But here's more or less what you're looking at in the picture:

1. One amazon sword in the back left corner.

2. A mostly hidden mesh wall of susswassertang (I don't have german characters on this keyboard), which is extending from the HOB on the right over.

3. Two marimo moss balls

4. Some Cardinal plant that was supposed to be "dwarf", but seems to have become five 7" stalks in the background.

5. Java fern tridens on a piece of driftwood.

6. Two clumps of dwarf Sag. on a second bit of driftwood.

7. Java fern wendelov on a third piece of driftwood.

8. Minor loose cuts of susswassertang that have "escaped containment" throughout the tank.

9. Several clumps of crypt lucens in the midwater, biggest piece is next to the pleco cave.

10. A red melon sword on the right, (currently mostly green, but I'm working on it).

11. More Java fern tridens grown from leaf buds off the other plant, which has been glued all up and down the driftwood on the upper right.

12. A small army of salvinia minimus.

13. A carpet of Red Root Floater.

14. Three tea saucer sized dwarf water lettuce, (these are the giant fluffy roots you see hanging mid-water).

15. Three amazon frogbit, (which are a bit yellowish after I cut their massive roots down last week). Slightly smaller in diameter than the DWL, although that was flipped before I added Easy Iron.

16. The brand new crypt "pink flamingo" front and center.

17. Two annubias barteri suction cupped to the left pane of glass.

 

Now, coming out of my tap is softened water. (I'm not sure if the plumber actually installed a cutoff valve several decades ago, but we've all forgotten where it was if they did). It has a TDS measurement of 212. GH reading is "Very Soft". KH buffer is ~100 ppm? PH is between 6.8 and 7.2. I've yet to get a readable chlorine or chloramine measurement. Takeaway here is that what's pumping out of the wall is full of mineral salts. Nutrients would be locked away from plants until I break down these salts a bit.

Algae cleanup crew is seven fat little otocinclus, one horned nerite snail, and two old amano shrimp. None of which tend to wander into frame when I'm trying to take a picture. I'm trying to point out that I am still growing algae here, it's just that something is usually eating it.

What does it take to maintain this messy jungle of a tank? Well, I have a hygger hg-957, at er... 26 watts? This is full spectrum and programmable, but definitely a worse light than your Stingrays. I have a day cycle from 8:30 AM to 7:00 PM, and a moon cycle from 6:00 PM to 10:30 PM. I am dosing Easy Green... ONCE a week. (Two pumps for a 20G). I am also dosing Easy Iron, on the same schedule as the Easy Green. I got a great improvement in overall growth from the Easy Iron, (I was just hoping it'd perk up the RRF, but it perked up everything). There are API root tabs under the amazon sword, red melon sword, and the crypt pink flamingo.

I will need to cut the lighting schedule back on this tank. I am also thinking about taking my dosing down to maybe once every week and a half. At the current rate, I need to cull back floating plants twice a week. My tank is equally unbalanced, it's just that it's going in the opposite direction as yours. I'm getting more plants than I can handle.

 

Now, I have no idea what your water tests as. I also don't know what your plant situation is like. It may very well be that you need all that Easy Carbon, and twice what I'm using in Easy Green. But I'd need more information to know for sure. It'd be real helpful if you could test strip what's in the water change bucket before you add any fertilizers. Equally helpful to know what plant you have that's trying to use all these nutrients you're adding to the water. Feeding plants is a bit like feeding your dog, there is a limit on how much you can give it and still keep it healthy. Thankfully, plants don't pass out in a bloated heap next to the food dish when you get it wrong.

[Tactical Error]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!  Below is a pic of the offending tank.  This morning was water change morning, so I typically test about 48 hours after so the Prime doesn’t influence it.  Ammonia/nitrite/nitrate generally runs 0/0/0, and to be honest, testing for phosphorus had not crossed my mind - so I’ll be shopping for that directly!  

Clean up crew is currently 6 amano shrimp, a couple of dozen red cherry shrimp, a big mystery snail, and I don’t even know how many bladder snails.   I’m running an aqua clear 20 that I’ve packed with my own media, as well as medium size sponge filter.    I’ve been dosing the Easy Carbon once a day, based on the directions on the label, and the Easy Green as well.   I suspect I’m over dosing the fert. 
 

@Seattle_Aquarist - That lighting math was just what I needed!  I’m one week into having shaded the light and adding the giant duckweed.   I’m skeptical of breaking up the hours of light with a siesta.   ‘X’ hours of light is still ‘X’ hours of light - breaking it up isn’t going yield less light, but it’s not going to hurt anything to try it, I guess.   I was actually reading this morning about putting an inline dimmer on the light, I think I’m going to try it,

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Tactical Error

[tolstoy21]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:50 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Firstly; have you got any algae eaters in there?

When I had what one considers a 'planted tank', meaning thoughtful placement of specific plants in order to create a beautiful aquascape (instead of just plants in tanks -- which is what I mostly have now) -- I had many frustrations with algae. 

A combination of fish I found VERY helpful were true Siamese algae eaters (they tend to pick at and keep the stringy green algae at bay) and a school of otocinclus (they tend to scour the leaves surfaces for biofilm, diatoms and other algae that tend to coat surfaces.

If your light is adjustable, try cutting back the intensity. I start with my lights at about 50% and then increase them as the plants fill.  If you can't adjust it, then see if you can raise it a bit.

On 11/6/2022 at 8:12 PM, Tactical Error said:

 Ammonia/nitrite/nitrate generally runs 0/0/0

You want a nitrate level somewhere closer to 20ppm, give or take. Nitrates are essential to plant health and growth.,

Edited November 7, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Tactical Error]

I do have algae eaters - I totally forget - add three ottos to the clean up crew,

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:22 AM, Tactical Error said:

I do have algae eaters - I totally forget - add three ottos to the clean up crew,

Maybe try some Amano Shrimp and/or some Nannocharax Parvus if you can kind them. They're a really small SAE-like algae eater from Africa; and I love them!

[The Arthritic Aquarist]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:12 PM, Tactical Error said:

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!  Below is a pic of the offending tank.  This morning was water change morning, so I typically test about 48 hours after so the Prime doesn’t influence it.  Ammonia/nitrite/nitrate generally runs 0/0/0, and to be honest, testing for phosphorus had not crossed my mind - so I’ll be shopping for that directly!  

Clean up crew is currently 6 amano shrimp, a couple of dozen red cherry shrimp, a big mystery snail, and I don’t even know how many bladder snails.   I’m running an aqua clear 20 that I’ve packed with my own media, as well as medium size sponge filter.    I’ve been dosing the Easy Carbon once a day, based on the directions on the label, and the Easy Green as well.   I suspect I’m over dosing the fert. 
 

@Seattle_Aquarist - That lighting math was just what I needed!  I’m one week into having shaded the light and adding the giant duckweed.   I’m skeptical of breaking up the hours of light with a siesta.   ‘X’ hours of light is still ‘X’ hours of light - breaking it up isn’t going yield less light, but it’s not going to hurt anything to try it, I guess.   I was actually reading this morning about putting an inline dimmer on the light, I think I’m going to try it,

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

If you're using Easy Green every day, you may be overdosing.  Label says to only use once or twice a week (though I've broken up the dosage into smaller, more frequent ones at times).  I had to experiment with my dosage levels (also use Leaf Zone for extra potassium and iron).  It took awhile to get it right, along with the lighting level.  I would get algae predominantly on the back glass and the right side. I recently increased my lighting level slightly --wanted to produce some algae for my neocaridinas and nerites --but now getting a bit too much so will go back to lower levels (have plants that prefer low-medium lighting).  I don't see that much algae in the picture you provided, though hard to see the back.  Some of your plants --I think I see Anubias and Crypts --prefer lower light.  Looks like Hornwort in the back, which likes moderate levels.  Dwarf Sag in the front (?) also likes moderate lighting.  Looks like you may have some Java Fern, which prefers lower light levels and an Amazon Sword (which have always tended to be forgiving for me).

[eatyourpeas]

@Tactical Error, there is good advice here. All my tanks but one are shallow, and it is amazing how little light they need compared to the tall one (15”). I run the light a 60% for 6 hours a day, and mitigate some of the intensity by having floating plants (Riccia fluitans, duckweed, Hornwort). I do not fertilize and let the plants get their nutrients from the critters (not for everybody).

I would suggest a bit of patience observing the tank to learn the rhythm of growth inside of it. The presence of algae is not necessarily a bad thing, it just needs grooming like everything else.

The tank looks beautiful, algae and all. 😍

[Tactical Error]

On 11/7/2022 at 10:25 AM, The Arthritic Aquarist said:

If you're using Easy Green every day, you may be overdosing.  Label says to only use once or twice a week (though I've broken up the dosage into smaller, more frequent ones at times).  

I can see where you would believe I’m using Easy Green daily.   I’m actually using Easy Carbon daily, and Easy Green 2x/ week, per the directions on the label.   If you look at the lower half of the back wall, you’ll notice it’s solid green.   When I did the water change on Sunday morning, I cleaned the top half with a razor blade, but did not want to do the whole thing at once, so as not to cause an ammonia spike with any decaying algae I might have missed removing.

I do have all low or mid light plants.  Therein lies the rub.   The light I was told I must have by the lfs, is too powerful for a tank that is only 12” deep.   (Oh, the joys of the hobby…).  I think I’m going to pursue adding an in line dimmer to the light so I can dial back the intensity some.  Then I can actually have the light on occasionally so I can enjoy the tank 🤣

Edited November 8, 2022 by Tactical Error

[JoeQ]

On 11/8/2022 at 7:28 AM, Tactical Error said:

I can see where you would believe I’m using Easy Green daily.   I’m actually using Easy Carbon daily, and Easy Green 2x/ week, per the directions on the label.   If you look at the lower half of the back wall, you’ll notice it’s solid green.   When I did the water change on Sunday morning, I cleaned the top half with a razor blade, but did not want to do the whole thing at once, so as not to cause an ammonia spike with any decaying algae I might have missed removing.

I do have all low or mid light plants.  Therein lies the rub.   The light I was told I must have by the lfs, is too powerful for a tank that is only 12” deep.   (Oh, the joys of the hobby…).  I think I’m going to pursue adding an in line dimmer to the light so I can dial back the intensity some.  Then I can actually have the light on occasionally so I can enjoy the tank 🤣

You might want to check out my 10g algea eradication journal,  it took me about a month to get rid of a wall of algea in my quarantine tank. This was mainly accomplished through lean liquid dosing, instead opting for root tabs, a good vacuming of the substrate, large water changes, adding fast growing plants and most importantly NERITE SNAILS,  who are voracious when it comes to green (or red) wall algea.

Edit; running my airstone 24/7 was also a big part, it not only helps with flow but helps agitate the surface for good gas exchange. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by JoeQ
Added edit info

[Theplatymaster]

how long are the lights on in the 20L? Even if it doesnt have too much light, if it has it for too long that can boost algae growth. (Experienced this myself). If you don't have one i recommend you get a light timer, and aim for 8-12 hours of light a day.

[Tactical Error]

It is on a timer, and gets six hours of light a day.    Pretty sure at this point that the light is over powered for such a shallow tank.  

On 11/8/2022 at 8:35 AM, JoeQ said:

You might want to check out my 10g algea eradication journal,  it took me about a month to get rid of a wall of algea in my quarantine tank. This was mainly accomplished through lean liquid dosing, instead opting for root tabs, a good vacuming of the substrate, large water changes, adding fast growing plants and most importantly NERITE SNAILS,  who are voracious when it comes to green (or red) wall algea.

Edit; running my airstone 24/7 was also a big part, it not only helps with flow but helps agitate the surface for good gas exchange. 

 

 

Thanks - I’ll check it out!

[Tactical Error]

Hi all!  I just wanted to give a quick update - I’m not going to say I’m winning the battle, but I think the algae growth has definitely slowed!  And now that I’ve said that out loud, I’m doomed!  😆