Mysterious wasting disease for many months, now worst

[nerdyaquarist]

I’ve had a bit of trouble with some red honey gouramis I got many months ago, with almost the entire stock from one particular store dying on me over time and the stock from another store being perfectly fine. I also have had a cardinal tetra succumb to this strange affliction over time too. I have 1 gourami left from that store and he’s always looked strange. His body has always looked much thinner and paler than the rest but he’s always been super active and eating and pooping fine. From the pictures you can see how this guy looks like he has no fat in his body, compared to my other gouramis.

I have treated him and everyone with no less than 3-4 rounds of prazipro and him with at least 2 rounds of levamisole to no avail. After doing all this, I kinda just gave up and assumed he just had a genetic defect and was like that. Recently, he’s become noticeably more pale and skinny. I’m willing to do another round of levamisole but I don’t have high hopes. I don’t know what other medication to use and I don’t even know if the issue is parasitic. The picture I included was of him 2 months ago and he’s now even skinnier and paler now. Second picture is of his healthy tank mate for comparison. He’s completely see-through too, unlike his healthy mates. I know he’s also being bullied by the other gouramis (by being chased away whenever they see each other) which can contribute. 

I’ve been struggling a bit with this tank lately and am becoming pretty disheartened by the hobby. I’d appreciate any and all help. 
 

Mandatory info:

0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20 nitrate

6.6 pH

78-80 F temp

29 gallon heavily planted tank

[Colu]

Any rapid breathing hanging near the surface listlessness noticeable sunken belly spitting food out flashing and how long from them developing symptoms to it being fatal  @nerdyaquarist

[nerdyaquarist]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:42 PM, Colu said:

Any rapid breathing hanging near the surface listlessness noticeable sunken belly spitting food out flashing and how long from them developing symptoms to it being fatal  @nerdyaquarist

None of those symptoms, except maybe sunken belly - but I can't even tell that for sure because he has a noticeable round bulge under his gills, which I assume is where his stomach is. His behavior is perfectly normal and on par with the other gouramis. He has no clear, white, or stringy poop. He eats perfectly well too. He is a bit shy though which I am assuming is because he gets chased around by the other gouramis any time they see him, which has gotten worst lately due to his deteriorating condition.

The other fish (which I assume is about 1 or 2) that have had this wasting disease lived with it for months (some more months than others) before dying. This guy has had it for the longest out of everyone and I believe I've had him for about 8 months or so and he's been skinny since I bought him. I thought he was thinner because he's male so I didn't give it much thought. 

[Colu]

Some fish can survive for a long time before succumbing to wasting disease it's also possible that are being bullied and gradually losing weight over a period of time that would explain the color loss as well caused by stress what I would recommend is quarantine the sick fish feed him three times a day for a week if he starts to put on weight it was more than likely bulling causing the weight loss after a week your still seeing not improvement then I would do a course of flubendazole treat every other day for three days then repeat in the treatment in two weeks @nerdyaquarist

Edited November 6, 2022 by Colu

[nerdyaquarist]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:42 PM, Colu said:

Some fish can survive for a long time before succumbing to wasting disease it's also possible that are being bullied and gradually losing weight over a period of time that would explain the color loss as well caused by stress what I would recommend is quarantine the sick fish feed him three times a day for a week if he starts to put on weight it was more than likely bulling causing the weight loss after a week your still seeing not improvement then I would do a course of flubendazole treat every other day for three then repeat in the treatment in two weeks @nerdyaquarist

Which medication do you recommend that contains flubendazole?

Wish I read this earlier before I got swayed by my LFS to try copper since the other parasite meds haven't helped. I have isolated the fish now and added copper and some salt. Could I possibly add flubendazole on top of that?

[Colu]

 I use NT labs fluke and wormer or your can get absolute wormer plus or you can use panacur c  @nerdyaquarist

[nerdyaquarist]

On 11/5/2022 at 6:04 AM, Colu said:

 I use NT labs fluke and wormer or your can get absolute wormer plus or you can use panacur c  @nerdyaquarist

Thanks for the info. I can go with absolute wormer. Could I use that on top of with copper and salt? I worry it may be too much at once.

[Colu]

On 11/5/2022 at 7:37 PM, nerdyaquarist said:

Thanks for the info. I can go with absolute wormer. Could I use that on top of with copper and salt? I worry it may be too much at once.

You could use with salt am not sure weather you would have an negative interaction between flubendazole and a copper based treatment so I wouldn't recommend it 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Colu

[nerdyaquarist]

I decided to do the copper for at least a week to see if there’s any improvement, and if I don’t see any then I will do a water change and do absolute wormer as my fish continues to behave and eat normally, so there doesn’t seem to be a dire rush. 
 

Here’s an update (I think):

Nothing different in terms of behavior. I’ve been feeding 3 times a day every day.

I found a few of these thin red things on the bottom of the QT. I’m inclined to believe they’re dead worms of some kind, although I also have a fake red silk plant and it could be some threads have have flaked off. I think it’s unlikely though because the threads are thicker than the “worms”. The picture below is what I’m referring to, I know it’s not a great picture but if anyone has insight it’d be appreciated.

 

 

[nerdyaquarist]

Hope this thread can reach more people.

Here's an update for today: he was FEROCIOUSLY eating today and swimming all over the tank. Haven't really ever seen him this active. I don't know if this is a sign of the treatment working or of him being stressed out by the treatment. Color looks the same. I did notice that there is a thin black/red line visible on his skin stretching from his gills to his pectoral fin. This angled line is visible on both sides of his body. There's no other area of his body that I can notice these lines. I don't see this on any other of my gouramis. I couldn't get a clear picture of this unfortunately as he was moving too fast. What could this be? Can this give a clue to what his ailment is?

[nerdyaquarist]

Feels like I’m posting to the void…. but here I am with an update in the hopes someone can provide insight and help me see if I’m going the right direction. 

It’s been a week since I’ve started the copper + salt treatment. I gave myself a week for me to decide to spend on flubendazole or not. I honestly don’t know now whether to do it or not.
He is SO active now, eating like a pig, has colored up noticeably, and is starting to plump up. But, I have no idea if this is because of the treatment or because I’m feeding him big meals twice a day everyday. I have no idea how to proceed. 
 

I was able to catch a picture of him so you guys can judge for yourselves. First pic is on the second day of quarantine, second pic is from today. Because he’s in a storage tote, the pics are color-corrected to hopefully better represent the colors I’m seeing IRL. 

My question for this forum is: should I get the flubendazole and treat him? Or should I continue doing what I’m doing? Or insert third option.

 

[Stroy15]

I have also posted many updates on sick fish with no response, but further updates may illuminate for other on the forum who are also looking for info. 

Have there been improvement in his weight? Eating is always a good sign.

[Colu]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:39 PM, nerdyaquarist said:

Feels like I’m posting to the void…. but here I am with an update in the hopes someone can provide insight and help me see if I’m going the right direction. 

It’s been a week since I’ve started the copper + salt treatment. I gave myself a week for me to decide to spend on flubendazole or not. I honestly don’t know now whether to do it or not.
He is SO active now, eating like a pig, has colored up noticeably, and is starting to plump up. But, I have no idea if this is because of the treatment or because I’m feeding him big meals twice a day everyday. I have no idea how to proceed. 
 

I was able to catch a picture of him so you guys can judge for yourselves. First pic is on the second day of quarantine, second pic is from today. Because he’s in a storage tote, the pics are color-corrected to hopefully better represent the colors I’m seeing IRL. 

My question for this forum is: should I get the flubendazole and treat him? Or should I continue doing what I’m doing? Or insert third option.

 

I would still recommend treating him with flubendazole just to cover all bases just in case it's internal parasites can cause the symptoms your seeing 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Colu

[nerdyaquarist]

On 11/15/2022 at 9:41 PM, Colu said:

I would still recommend treating him with flubendazole just to cover all bases just in case it's internal parasites cause the symptoms your seeing 

His weight has improved tremendously! He's filling out very nicely actually and has colored up significantly. He still has a ways to go to be as "chonky" as his mates, but I do think we are on the right path. I don't know when I should taper down feedings though because I obviously can't continue to feed him 2-3 times a day everyday. I worry if I taper down eventually he will lose all his progress.

On 11/15/2022 at 9:41 PM, Colu said:

I would still recommend treating him with flubendazole just to cover all bases just in case it's internal parasites cause the symptoms your seeing 

Thanks for the response, I'll go ahead and do that this week. Maybe now that he's doing better the medications will actually do something instead of failing like in the past.

[Guppysnail]

After you decide on treatment or not and return him to the tank keep a close eye. Improvement this drastic  rapidly could indicate it was stress stress/bullying induced. You are not posting to the void. This section is because most folks don’t know how to treat many things and others can’t say without long behavioral observations and even then without a laboratory no one can be really certain of the issues. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/11/2022 at 4:39 PM, nerdyaquarist said:

I had a fish that started to get a concave belly like this.  He ate great, but his belly kept getting smaller and sunken in.  I moved him to a tote and treated him with paracleanse, and he made a full recovery.

On 11/6/2022 at 5:27 PM, nerdyaquarist said:

I found a few of these thin red things on the bottom of the QT.

Remove these daily with a turkey baster.

[nerdyaquarist]

Hey everyone! It's been a long time so I figured I should give an update on the situation. Thank you all once again for all of your insight.

So I ended up doing 1 round of levamisole and 2 rounds of the flubendazole just so I could really kill anything that might be in there still, not leaving any stones unturned. I noticed he was doing great, plumping and coloring up even, so after a waiting period once the second round was done, he was returned to the main tank. I did notice that quite quickly after returning him, the other two gouramis started chasing him, which is really frustrating. It's his second day in the community tank so there's no immediate signs of harm, but it does feel like I'm back to square one. 

Despite his clear progress, once he was back in the main tank the differences between him and the other gouramis was very evident. He still doesn't look nearly as plump and colorful as the other guys, despite being fed so much throughout this time. I brought him back from the brink of death, so I do hope that it'll just take a while before he looks "normal". 

I am seriously contemplating giving back the other 2 gouramis though, as this chasing just doesn't stop no matter who I separate or for how long. I have heard opinions that red honey gouramis are not "true" honey gouramis, so this might be thick-lipped gourami behavior and they may be better off either in a big shoal or alone. I don't want the 2 other gouramis to end up stressing out my guy to death, especially after all I've invested in him (money-wise, time-wise, and emotionally). What do you all think about this?

Pictures of how he looks now are attached below. The last pic is of his gourami friends/bullies to show you the difference in appearance. Excuse the CO2 bubbles in the way. There is a clear difference between how he is now and how he was, but there is still some recovering to do. Pictures are unaltered.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/17/2022 at 9:50 PM, nerdyaquarist said:

so after a waiting period once the second round was done, he was returned to the main tank. I did notice that quite quickly after returning him, the other two gouramis started chasing him

I had this exact thing happen with a sick tetra. The fish in the main tank can tell he’s been sick so they’re trying to “get rid of the liability”.

The solution for me was to move the recovered fish back out to quarantine and wait a long time til I thought he looked healthy/the same as them. I let him in QT a good extra month or two, but it worked and I had success returning him the second time.
 

It takes patience but you can take that time to bond with the fish. Feed him one piece at a time, watch him eat. Talk to him. Name him (he’s been though an ordeal - has earned a name!)  Observe him. Weekly water changes, no meds. A little salt if you want to (1 Tbsp/3 gal). By the time he’s ready to go back in you’ll be great friends. 🙂

Edited December 18, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nerdyaquarist]

Hey everyone, I figure it would be a good idea to revive this thread with an update in case anyone goes through the same thing I did and is looking for help.

It's been now a few months since my last post and he's doing so much better! I would consider him completely cured at this point! Even the bullying has gone down to a minimum, with him initiating some of the chasing occasionally (I'm so proud of him), even towards the big meanie! His color is now very good, just like his mates and his belly has definitely grown more. He still does not look quite like the others bodyshape-wise and I doubt at this point he will ever look like them, but I still think this is a success story.

Below are some pictures from today to show his progress. They were so difficult to get, he's crazy active now! Months ago I would've never imagined he could glow up like this. I'm just so happy I was able to save his life, thank you all so much for helping me out!! 🙂 You all are so awesome!