Opinions on the Father Fish method

[Thomas Guin]

Has anyone tried the Father Fish method? I'm considering trying it, but would like some advice on if it's worth the hassle.

[Remi de Groot]

What is the 'Father Fish' method?

[Thomas Guin]

He has developed a deep dirt and sand capped substrate method similar to the Walstad method. He adds numerous ingredients to his diet that is supposed to last 20 years or more. It's basically an full on ecosystem that requires virtually no water changes and the plants and microorganisms feed the tank. He uses no fertilizers or chemicals. He's created a self sustaining ecosystem. It's very interesting to see his aquariums. I found him in YouTube. 

Dirt, not diet .

[JettsPapa]

I've seen several of his videos also.  He starts by using quite a few additives in the bottom layer of mud.  If I remember right he said that's to get a jump-start on using the Walstad method, so the plants get the nutrients they need right away, where it can take up to a year using the Walstad method.

I have one tank where I tried something similar, though I didn't use all the additives.  I started with 1" of dry cow manure, then 1" of potting soil, and then 2" of sand.  This was in a standard 20 gallon tank.  It's been set up for several months, and seems to be doing well.

Yesterday I set up a new 10 gallon tank.  I didn't want 4" of substrate in a tank that small, so I did roughly 3/4" of dry cow manure and then about 1-1/2" of pool filter sand.  I planted eight or so Cryptocoryne usteriana (my latest favorite plant) in it.  We'll see how it goes.

[Thomas Guin]

I have a 55 I'm trying out with just soil and sand, just a test run, if it shows some promise I'll probably bite the bullet and try his method full on. I have plants not doing too well, so I figured why not.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I closely follow Father Fish, but he puts like 10 things in the substrate. Each additive has its own benefit, and the result is that the minerals/nutrients do not get depleted over time, which is what he found to be the issue w/ Walstad method.  However, I will not try the method by buying all the stuff because it's CRAZY expensive to buy that many bags of things, esp. if just starting 1 tank or just "trying it out" (and then what would I do with all the leftover product?).  But I would consider buying the soil additive kit he has on his website instead, which is only like 10 bucks.

 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 6:43 AM, Thomas Guin said:

I have a 55 I'm trying out with just soil and sand, just a test run, if it shows some promise I'll probably bite the bullet and try his method full on. I have plants not doing too well, so I figured why not.

Over in the planted tank forum I read that soil users had a dramatic pH drop within 24-48 hours (ie: 7.5 to 6.6). Let us know how you fare.

[Kezrms]

Any LFS's use it for their aquariums?

[WaterPig]

I've been using the FF method in all of my tanks (20 gallon, 40 gallon indoor pond, 2x 10 gallon) for about two years. I used his additives at the recommended doses in all but the pond (where I skimped a bit). Each tank has only plants without any hardscape.

Stuff I've been successful with: It's really easy to maintain. I just top off with well water, and never do any changes. I don't use column ferts.

Stuff I haven't been successful with: Despite my best efforts, I've never been able to cultivate a true ecosystem where the fish are able to eat only what's in the tank (this is a huge focus of the FF method if you watch his videos). I need to regularly feed them or the'll starve.

Stuff I find questionable: FF and other members of the community seem to believe that CO2 injection serves no purpose because the plants pull in so much CO2 from the roots. Two of my tanks use injection and the plant growth is significantly more dense and healthy.

Overall, I'd really recommend going this route if you want a great looking tank with minimal work. Attached is a recent photo of my 20-gallon.

[mynameisnobody]

@WaterPig I think you just got me curious enough to dedicate an empty 29 gallon to this. I’ve seen some of his videos and they seem fairly logical. I’m always up for a new experiment. Thanks for the info. 

[Dacotua]

Honestly, I"m not going to do that. I generally run plants with sand. I utilize root tabs and I do water changes and test my water. I have done the whole put a ton of plants in the tank and just let nature take care of it. I didn't do water for over a year. I suddenly started had all my shrimp die off, fish dying, etc... I tested the water and it was 0ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite and almost 0ppm Nitrate. (I didn't have old tank syndrome, at least my tests indicated I didn't).

I ended up doing nearly a 90% water change for 3 weeks straight and my tank turned around. I believe there was something in the water that was killing my fish without the ability for me to test for it.  I now run a sponge filter and a canister filter in all my tanks, I do weekly water changes whether or not the test kit says I needs it or not.

Since I've been utilizing this method, I have not had a mass die off since.

 

[Galabar]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:10 PM, Dacotua said:

Honestly, I"m not going to do that. I generally run plants with sand. I utilize root tabs and I do water changes and test my water. I have done the whole put a ton of plants in the tank and just let nature take care of it. I didn't do water for over a year. I suddenly started had all my shrimp die off, fish dying, etc... I tested the water and it was 0ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite and almost 0ppm Nitrate. (I didn't have old tank syndrome, at least my tests indicated I didn't).

I ended up doing nearly a 90% water change for 3 weeks straight and my tank turned around. I believe there was something in the water that was killing my fish without the ability for me to test for it.  I now run a sponge filter and a canister filter in all my tanks, I do weekly water changes whether or not the test kit says I needs it or not.

Since I've been utilizing this method, I have not had a mass die off since.

 

Yes, we just can't measure everything in our tank water.  So, we have no way of knowing when something goes out of wack (that is not nitrogen, KH, GH, or PH).  Water changes protect us from that.  With water changes, those things we can't measure will be diluted.

[Creedmoor Aquatics]

Dirted tanks are something you may want to try, at some point, but they have about as many negatives as positives.

FF, like many who have tried the Walstad method, concludes you need more sand on top of the dirt to keep it from making a mess. I agree with this, though re-scaping is still messy. 

Dirted tank methods do much better when densely planted from the start. Arguably, all tanks do better when densely planted, but dirted tanks especially take a while to settle in, nutrient-wise, and the extra plants on hand really help that along. 

I don't think this point gets enough emphasis, particularly when dirted tanks are marketed with terms like 'easy', 'low maintenance', 'good for beginners'. If you've been in the hobby for a while its probably not a big deal to pull some stem plants, ferns, crypts, etc from other tanks to start your dirted tank. 
But judging by the photos I see beginners to the hobby post online, most beginners don't have a firm understanding of what a densely planted tank means. They often engage in "one of each" behaviors, where they'll start with 1 java fern, 1 anubias, 1 crypt, 1 sword, 1 java moss, etc. Beginners may also not be prepared to make the investment to add substantially more plants to their new tanks. 

Dirted tanks are absolutely full of nutrients, and you have very little control over them. The only thing keeping all that nutrient away from your water at any given time is your sand cap. Disturb the sand cap and bad things will start to happen very quickly. Add fish that will disturb that sand cap and bad things will start to happen very quickly. Ask your neighbor to watch your tank while you're on vacation and unknowingly allow them to disturb your sand cap and bad things will start to happen very quickly. 

On the other hand, load the tank full of plants, don't disturb the sand cap, and keep the tank topped up with water and well buffered and you'll be fine. 

Oh yeah, that last part. Dirted tanks have the tendency to produce loads and loads and loads of humic acids. If your water is naturally low in hardness/buffer (kH) it will behoove you to find ways to increase the buffering capacity. I have had a dirted tank go all the way down to 2.0 pH when left alone and without water changes. 

[WaterPig]

@Creedmoor Aquatics These are really excellent points - thank you for making them.

• I remember starting in the hobby with like 4 plants and thinking: (1) all of these are going to live, (2) that I had a lot of plants. By the time I set up my current tanks, I had been cultivating plants for years and could properly set them up without purchasing much more.
• While it is possible to move plants in these tanks (I do it on rare occasions), I would recommend against it. This style of tank requires that you go into it with patience and a kind of peace with letting nature take over. Don't use dirt if you're planning on going a lot of rescaping.
• My water is moderately hard, so I fortunately haven't experienced any experienced the crash you're referring to.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I have a Walstad jar which had a nice colony of bladder snails. I decided to remove the rosette sword which was self propagating and getting shaded out by other plants. Doing so disrupted the dirt layer and caused all the bladder snails to die…

For this reason, I would not ever recommend a rescape on a FF or Walstad method setup.

[DallasCowboys16]

I really don’t see a huge difference between the “father fish method” and a standard dirted tank.

He may have a more systematic approach to adding additional additives in order to prevent complete soil exhaustion, but other than that the fundamentals are the same.

What seems to be key to achieving the true self-sustaining nature of his tanks is the very light stocking density. You will never be able to maintain a dense enough population of various food species if you have more than a small number of fish in your tank.

I’ve done dirted tanks before and the plant growth was pretty good, but honestly nothing I really couldn’t achieve in a standard tank with a reasonable fertilization schedule. I really did not like how messy it was to uproot plants. If you like to play around in your tank every now and again, I would advise against dirt.

I have also kept plenty of non-dirted tanks that have gone 4, 6, 8, 10+ months with no water change and still were in good condition. Most well setup planted tanks are capable of going a VERY long time without proper maintenance. I don’t think you need to go full blown Walstad method to achieve low maintenance.

In the years I’ve done this, I’ve come across a million ways to keep an aquarium and have tried many of them. I’ve come to learn that success can be had with nearly every approach. Find what works for you and what you enjoy and go for it!

[JettsPapa]

I have set up several tanks using dry cow manure, either by itself or with potting soil, topped with sand.  Plants do well in it.  However, I probably wouldn't do it again unless the tank is strictly for display.  I frequently pull plants up to sell, and it makes a mess when I pull them up out of the dirt.

[rockfisher]

I have had a few set up this way. I think they are not for everyone, and probably not for most of us here. I will say the best planted tank I ever had. Once’s it’s set up you don’t mess with it. I don’t do many water changes anyway on my well planted tanks. Anyway they can work, your first few may fail as you learn, last they aren’t for everyone. If you only have one tank you may not want do this on your tank if you have a fish room give it a try.