What features do you want in an aquarium monitor / controller?

[Bill]

I haven't been visiting the forum lately, as I have been really busy. Back in this post, I said I was working on a controller:

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/214-neptune-apex-aquarium-control/#comment-19038

And in fact, just completed it the initial version, which is just about to go on the market. I'm a software engineer / architect, and my friend is an electrical engineer. We worked together in the past designing and building standards based Smart Grid control systems. What started out as a side project evolved into full production of a system that is geared towards those with "MTS" (multi-tank syndrome), which aims to be very user friendly.

I can't say the product name, but what I specifically want is feature input from anyone who has used controllers like the Apex and Felix, or anyone interested. What features would make a multi-tank system ideal for you? Since I am in control of the system architecture and software development, I will definitely incorporate all valuable suggestions. Some features of existing systems were discussed in this thread:

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/214-neptune-apex-aquarium-control/#comment-1057

These are the current features, and I am looking for any features NOT listed that you'd like to see:

• You can add as many tanks as you want. Temperature, pH, maintenance, etc will be shown for each tank.
• Single controller, ethernet or wifi with 8 outlets and sensor ports. You can expand with less expensive 8 or 4 outlet boxes with sensor ports anywhere in your home where you have tanks via wifi. 
• Totally modular, using third party components that can be purchased directly from the manufacturer.  Each tank can have pH and temperature probes continually monitored (level detection and flow in future version)
• High and low temperature and pH values can activate any number of outlets (e.g. turn off the heater if the temperature in Tank 2 is above 80), or turn on the C02 based on pH values). 
• Any number of timers, each controlling any number of outlets. These can be associated with tanks (e.g. timer1 controls the lights for tank one and tank two).
• Tank maintenance reminders - useful for things done infrequently, like "clean canister filter" every three months.
• Leak detection with ability to activate outlets (e.g. turn off canister filters).
• Local audible alarm
• SMS notifications for high/low values, leaks, or maintenance due (each one can be turned on/off).
• Backup / restore for all configuration settings (local and cloud).

I will mention that support for video cameras with remote viewing is under development. Thanks for any input or suggestions, I'd love to incorporate them!

Bill

[modified lung]

I tend to operate in a bare bones fashion so I personally wouldn't use most of the features listed (although they all look very useful).

• Downloadable data logging that can be easily imported into Excel or G Sheets would be a must for me.

• Basic digital display either directly on or attachable to the unit.

• Resettable min/max display. I've never seen a continuous rolling min/max display anywhere, i.e. displays 24 hour min/max temp; every hour the min/max record updates and boots the earliest hour from the display.

• You only mentioned temp and pH. I'd also want conductivity (could have a customizable TDS factor) and possibly ORP. Those might not be a common thing most other would use though. 

• Is a USB-C power supply possible with this kind of unit?

[anewbie]

The only thing i want is a monitor (not controller) that will monitor PH, TEMP, TDS and a way to review data as a graph (which gives precise value under the curosr) for at least 365 days (coralvaul for example only allows 5); not required but text alerts would be a bonus if a value is out of configured range; probe appears dead; probe appears out of adjustment; bonus if the data can be downloaded in csv format.

 

(bonus can see data from phone - ok if only local via wifi but also being able to access data remotely is not bad when on vacation).

 

(ph probe needs to be accurate from 4.0 to 8.0; tds probe from 0 to 80).

(( my application is freshwater ))

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by anewbie

[anewbie]

Oh one other thing I will be buying 4 monitors around Feb/March 2023.... so if this is a new product that will be available by then update this thread with the product name... I've evaluated neptune, coralval, ghl and bluebird so far... coralval is winning the price war by a wide margin but neptune has a new device that has benefits; ghl monitor solution excludes tds (their controller includes tds as an option). Felix has me weary.

[Bill]

@modified lung:

The capturing and downloading of data as CSV for Excel import would actually be trivial to implement as we are continuously monitoring. What sampling frequency would be useful? 

There is no display on the unit, the current sensor values are show on the "app", inside each tank display. ORP will be available soon, I'll have to look into the TDS. The power supply is internal, the only thing we use USB for is data, for example if you wanted to expand to multiple hubs in the same room, where running USB cable is feasible, as it is less expensive than additional WiFi hubs. 

@anewbie:

The "control" for something like temperature is really only a safety, i.e. shutting off the heater should it's thermostat malfunction (this happens). If you wanted your temperature to be 78, you'd probably set a high temperature of 80 as an alert / shut off. As mentioned above, downloadable data would be something that could be easily added, as an option that you'd have to turn on (no sense storing it if only interested in monitoring).

I believe mentioning the product name would be against forum policy (advertising), but if you're interested you can PM me.

Thanks for the feedback.
 

[anewbie]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:47 PM, Bill said:

@modified lung:

The capturing and downloading of data as CSV for Excel import would actually be trivial to implement as we are continuously monitoring. What sampling frequency would be useful? 

There is no display on the unit, the current sensor values are show on the "app", inside each tank display. ORP will be available soon, I'll have to look into the TDS. The power supply is internal, the only thing we use USB for is data, for example if you wanted to expand to multiple hubs in the same room, where running USB cable is feasible, as it is less expensive than additional WiFi hubs. 

@anewbie:

The "control" for something like temperature is really only a safety, i.e. shutting off the heater should it's thermostat malfunction (this happens). If you wanted your temperature to be 78, you'd probably set a high temperature of 80 as an alert / shut off. As mentioned above, downloadable data would be something that could be easily added, as an option that you'd have to turn on (no sense storing it if only interested in monitoring).

I believe mentioning the product name would be against forum policy (advertising), but if you're interested you can PM me.

Thanks for the feedback.
 

The thing about temp 'control' is you can buy cheap controllers  - far cheaper than the monitors with controllers on the market. You still need an alert if the heater fails which is not uncommon.

[Bill]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:49 PM, anewbie said:

The thing about temp 'control' is you can buy cheap controllers  - far cheaper than the monitors with controllers on the market. You still need an alert if the heater fails which is not uncommon.

Yes, I've always had several Inkbirds. What I meant by "control" was that if you wanted your temperature at 78 you could technically set  your heater above 80, and set the high setpoint at 78, and then the system would be "controlling" the temperature (by turning the heater off when it went above 78). But we recommend setting the desired temperature on the heater (the heater is the controller), and only using the system to cut it off should it malfunction and the high temperature be exceeded. 

[anewbie]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:00 PM, Bill said:

Yes, I've always had several Inkbirds. What I meant by "control" was that if you wanted your temperature at 78 you could technically set  your heater above 80, and set the high setpoint at 78, and then the system would be "controlling" the temperature (by turning the heater off when it went above 78). But we recommend setting the desired temperature on the heater (the heater is the controller), and only using the system to cut it off should it malfunction and the high temperature be exceeded. 

This is a bit off topic but to be honest i've mostly given up on heaters thermostat; been messed up too many times; and go with titanium tubes - i'm not sure if they are more reliable and some folks have issue with current leakage but...

The thing is that monitoring only devices are a lot cheaper than monitors with built-in controllers - the prices i'm seeing is around $300-$400 including the three probes (ph,temp,tds); most of the controllers are nearly double that price point. Also monitoring more than 1 tank with the same controller (a feature of felix and your) means wires running across the room (i'm talking about my setup); i have 4 tanks that require monitoring - 1 is in a different room and 1 is 12 feet across from the other tank the other two are side by side. If I can save $350 buying a monitor rather than a controller that is $1400 which is a bit noticeable.

[Bill]

@anewbie I totally get it. Lots of options, and definitely price tradeoffs. To be clear, I have a Felix, and unless something changed with the new version, their controller supports one tank and it's 8 outlets. The app lets you connect to multiple controllers, so you can monitor them all from the app, but each is its own controller. I think they offer a discount for more than one. The setting menu has "tank" (not "tanks") setup. Our system has one controller, and as many "hubs" as you want, each hosting outlets and sensor ports. The central controller can see and control all attached sensors and outlets connected to any hub. The hubs can be connected by USB (if you can run a cable), or over Wifi for separate rooms. The USB hubs are a little cheaper than WiFi. Bottom line is that the up front cost for one tank might be a little higher (then a Felix might be a better fit), but as you add tanks the cost saving per tank is significant. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:31 AM, Bill said:

These are the current features, and I am looking for any features NOT listed that you'd like to see:

• You can add as many tanks as you want. Temperature, pH, maintenance, etc will be shown for each tank.
• Single controller, ethernet or wifi with 8 outlets and sensor ports. You can expand with less expensive 8 or 4 outlet boxes with sensor ports anywhere in your home where you have tanks via wifi. 
• Totally modular, using third party components that can be purchased directly from the manufacturer.  Each tank can have pH and temperature probes continually monitored (level detection and flow in future version)
• High and low temperature and pH values can activate any number of outlets (e.g. turn off the heater if the temperature in Tank 2 is above 80), or turn on the C02 based on pH values). 
• Any number of timers, each controlling any number of outlets. These can be associated with tanks (e.g. timer1 controls the lights for tank one and tank two).
• Tank maintenance reminders - useful for things done infrequently, like "clean canister filter" every three months.
• Leak detection with ability to activate outlets (e.g. turn off canister filters).
• Local audible alarm
• SMS notifications for high/low values, leaks, or maintenance due (each one can be turned on/off).
• Backup / restore for all configuration settings (local and cloud).

I think for me, specifically tailored for freshwater there is a few musts. 
-KH Reading (If possible), especially for planted tanks
-Oxygenation (Might be useful for some to rule out issues, having a standing probe is the way to do this I think.  Cost may dictate otherwise)
-Flowmeter: You can have something like what is used in water cooling, report that to the microcontroller, get some general idea for flow in some spot.  This would be an easy optional add-on as long as it could last sitting in the water and function.  There is also room here to have this tie into the pump directly, especially in a sump setup, so you can monitor health of equipment.  This is a different thing than a hang on back style pump, but both are viable for use in freshwater and very common in saltwater.  I see this mentioned above, but I wanted to clarify my own personal use case.
-Dosing pump with level monitors (up to 3 slots on normal version, pro would be 5-7)
-space on the outlets. Especially when it comes to big / bulky plugs or using things like timers. Having 4-6 of those as opposed to 1-2 is a must for me.
-FEED MODE.  Literally the one thing every single aquarium needs to have.  A button. Turns everything off for 15 minutes that makes sense to turn off.  A physical button that is easy to hit and it works well so I don't need to move to my phone click all this stuff off or use voice control / schedules. Hitting the button would also log the tank as being fed.

Edited October 14, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[modified lung]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:47 PM, Bill said:

The capturing and downloading of data as CSV for Excel import would actually be trivial to implement as we are continuously monitoring.

On the contrary, downloadable logging gives the ability to identify long term trends and correlations which is extremely useful. Logs also let you spot drift and often failing equipment failure before it becomes an emergency.

I'm also looking to buy a continuous monitor but would consider owning a monitor to be almost pointless without logging.

On 10/14/2022 at 12:47 PM, Bill said:

What sampling frequency would be useful? 

The hourly average is usually fine.

On 10/14/2022 at 12:47 PM, Bill said:

There is no display on the unit, the current sensor values are show on the "app", inside each tank display.

Could an old cell phone continuously run the app and let you see auto updated measurements every so often? That would be even better. I don't like having to whip out my cell phone to get a glimpse of what's going on. 

On 10/14/2022 at 12:47 PM, Bill said:

The power supply is internal, the only thing we use USB for is data,

On 10/14/2022 at 3:35 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

 

 

I just want to try hooking it up to my solar controller. That would probably be a terrible idea anyways 🤣

On 10/14/2022 at 3:35 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

space on the outlets. Especially when it comes to big / bulky plugs

YEEES! This drives me crazy.

On 10/14/2022 at 1:14 PM, anewbie said:

The thing is that monitoring only devices are a lot cheaper than monitors with built-in controllers

Agreed. Most lights have a built in or cheap attachable timer. And it's better to heat the room than the aquarium. I personally don't really need controllers but it's hard to find decent loggers that aren't priced for scientific use.

[anewbie]

On 10/14/2022 at 4:35 PM, Bill said:

@anewbie I totally get it. Lots of options, and definitely price tradeoffs. To be clear, I have a Felix, and unless something changed with the new version, their controller supports one tank and it's 8 outlets. The app lets you connect to multiple controllers, so you can monitor them all from the app, but each is its own controller. I think they offer a discount for more than one. The setting menu has "tank" (not "tanks") setup. Our system has one controller, and as many "hubs" as you want, each hosting outlets and sensor ports. The central controller can see and control all attached sensors and outlets connected to any hub. The hubs can be connected by USB (if you can run a cable), or over Wifi for separate rooms. The USB hubs are a little cheaper than WiFi. Bottom line is that the up front cost for one tank might be a little higher (then a Felix might be a better fit), but as you add tanks the cost saving per tank is significant. 

You should post an update to this thread if you offer a monitor only solution at a lower price point...

[Bill]

@nabokovfan87 Thanks for the suggestions, we definitely plan to look into all of these. We do cloud updates as features and fixes are included. And yes we have looked at flow meters that get placed in the tank as well as inline with the pump.

[Bill]

@anewbie and @modified lung

We agree about the log capturing, and as I said because it is a simple addition to what we are already doing, it is now officially on the near term roadmap on as a per-sensor option to turn it on. ORP and TDS sensors are available, we have just not tested them yet. ORP will be available sooner, TDS will take a little more time. 

As far as cost, it might be close to your range since you would not need the outlets and enclosure. You could just purchase the controller SBC (a small 3" x 3.25" x 1" device that runs the software and has sensor ports and a power supply) and all the sensors and adapters that you need. We sell them, or you can buy directly from the manufacturer, the cost is the same. We actually do have "for the fishroom" section, as opposed to "for the showroom" for this purpose. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bill

[modified lung]

On 10/15/2022 at 7:40 AM, Bill said:

@anewbie and @modified lung

We agree about the log capturing, and as I said because it is a simple addition to what we are already doing, it is now officially on the near term roadmap on as a per-sensor option to turn it on. ORP and TDS sensors are available, we have just not tested them yet. ORP will be available sooner, TDS will take a little more time. 

As far as cost, it might be close to your range since you would not need the outlets and enclosure. You could just purchase the controller SBC (a small 3" x 3.25" x 1" device that runs the software and has sensor ports and a power supply) and all the sensors and adapters that you need. We sell them, or you can buy directly from the manufacturer, the cost is the same. We actually do have "for the fishroom" section, as opposed to "for the showroom" for this purpose. 

Do you know when more info and sales might be available? My employer is also looking for some continuous monitors with logging capabilities. A multiple tank logger would be perfect and save a ton of money in the long term. I was going to build and program them myself through Arduino but it would be a huge learning curve and idk if I have the time.

[Bill]

On 10/15/2022 at 12:49 PM, modified lung said:

Do you know when more info and sales might be available? My employer is also looking for some continuous monitors with logging capabilities. A multiple tank logger would be perfect and save a ton of money in the long term. I was going to build and program them myself through Arduino but it would be a huge learning curve and idk if I have the time.

Sure if you want specific info, send me a PM I will get you the details. I can't provide product details on this forum, but I really value the input and requests of coop forum members. IMO this is the best place to get ideas on what people in the hobby want. As far as time, I get it... look at the time between my first post that I was building such a system and now!

[Bill]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:13 PM, anewbie said:

You should post an update to this thread if you offer a monitor only solution at a lower price point...

Based on feedback here and elsewhere, we did offer a lower priced monitor only option, currently with temperature, pH, and ORP with SMS notifications should any exceed configured high or low values. Also as asked for, we will be including TDS monitoring after we finish testing some new sensors.  

[jwcarlson]

I'd be interested in a monitoring device/devices.  Possibly a controller, but I'm not doing anything fancy at all in any tanks.  I think the biggest question I'd have is what the calibration procedure and frequency is...?

[Bill]

On 1/11/2023 at 9:55 AM, jwcarlson said:

I'd be interested in a monitoring device/devices.  Possibly a controller, but I'm not doing anything fancy at all in any tanks.  I think the biggest question I'd have is what the calibration procedure and frequency is...?

The calibration procedure for temperature probes is to put it in an ice water bath, then click the calibration button, the procedure takes about a minute. The system adjusts with the new offset, and records the last time calibrated. Same for pH probes, except for that you place the probe in a neutral 7.0 reference solution (Amazon sells it). So far, all the probes I've tried were very close without calibration (e.g. a temperature probe off by 0.3 degrees, or a pH probe off by 0.1). Not sure yet about how often, but the procedure is really easy. I use the pH monitoring on my guppy tank, because they like a pH of 7 or above, and mine always goes down to like 6.2 with nothing, so I use a low pH alert to adjust it. Below is a pic of the sensors left to right: ORP, pH, temperature.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Bill

[Bill]

Following up on the "monitor only" solution that was discussed. Even if the system isn't controlling outlets, monitoring them can be important. To the degree that we decided to support off the shelf Kasa smart plugs. Basically, letting users delegate which plugs to monitor (and optionally control) outside of the Kasa app. For $41 on amazon for 4 plugs, I definitely think it's worth putting one on each of my canister filters (and I did). That way you can detect if the filter is clogged (raised or low consumption) or stops working (zero consumption). I see that ACO sells them, and @Irene did a video on using its timer, but also using expected features, like timers on heaters and filters, just so you don't forget to turn them back on (we've all done it).

@nabokovfan87, we are close to finished adding most of what you listed, minus KH and oxygenation (not yet researched). Even the "physical button" (would take up one port). I realized I am also sometimes too lazy to take out my phone 🙂. Also, the Kasa plugs have strips and singles, can be placed anywhere and address the space issue. In fact, we hope never to have to sell our own "boxes with outlets". 

Again, if any advanced Apex users have features that are "can't live without", would love to hear them. Thanks.

[jwcarlson]

The regular Kasa plugs (the minis, I think they call them) don't have power usage information, basically just if it was on/off no information about the connected load.  The Smart Strip does have kW consumption.  

Bill, this controller would presumably have some sort of associated app for a phone if it's controlling the Kasa stuff?

[Bill]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:18 AM, jwcarlson said:

The regular Kasa plugs (the minis, I think they call them) don't have power usage information, basically just if it was on/off no information about the connected load.  The Smart Strip does have kW consumption.  

Bill, this controller would presumably have some sort of associated app for a phone if it's controlling the Kasa stuff?

Actually, they do have individual plugs (minis) that support energy monitoring, they are the KP-125. The other mini is the EP-10, which does not support it. Likewise, the 3-strip outlet (KP303) does NOT support it, but the 6-strip (HS-300) does. We tested all of them, and they all work. We're just recommending the EM plugs, definitely worth the money ($41 for 4-pack individual, $46 for 6-outlet strip). The plugs are great, as they fit over outlets without blocking.

And yes, the controller has its own app. We discover the plugs, and let the user designate which one's they want to use with our app. We then recommend that they don't do anything in the Kasa app that would conflict. However, you can still use both. Our app only communicates with the plugs on the local WiFi network--the Kasa app goes through the TP-link cloud with your credentials so you it can access the plugs remotely. I am guessing they do that by default, but it if was down, their app would access them directly on the local network (the app can't lose communication with plugs if TP-link, or your ISP is down!).
 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Bill