Advice needed for Betta..possible euthanasia advice!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I’m late to this thread, sorry!
 

I think going from an 8 pH to a 7 pH would be a big shock?

[A Moore]

On 6/24/2022 at 6:48 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I’m late to this thread, sorry!
 

I think going from an 8 pH to a 7 pH would be a big shock?

Thank you! I didn’t end up putting him in it until I added mostly tap water. It was around 7.5. After the night with a Jungle Fungus tablet in the tank I freaked out and changed almost all the water this morning with regular tap. He seems to be doing much better than this morning lying on his side at the bottom. 🙇‍♀️

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/23/2022 at 12:17 AM, A Moore said:

He is still marinating in catappa leaves and I added a tsp of salt

I think the dash of salt is a great idea. It helps with wound healing and stimulating slime coat.

[Odd Duck]

I have a few thoughts for you.  First, when you’re changing water, try to use water with parameters as close to the tank water as possible other than correcting any issues with your parameters.  So if you’re wanting to get your fish into softer water, you need to do it gradually.  For instance, when you are doing a 25% water change and he’s been in hard, salted, catappa dosed, tap water, the water you add back should be dechlorinated 75% tap and 25% RO, purified, or distilled that is the same temp as the tank, has been dosed to match the same level of salt, the same level of catappa/tannins, and the only difference being a mix of some of the purified water.  The next water change could be 50% purified/50% tap, the next change could be 75% purified/25% tap.  I would NOT go 100% purified and you probably would not need to go over 50% purified at each water change.  Straight purified water is VERY difficult to keep stable since it doesn’t have enough buffering capacity, so please, never do that.

All that said, if you have him in a 10 gallon hospital tank by himself, you shouldn’t need to do a ton of water changes, especially since water changes can be stressful, particularly if they also involve parameter changes like pH and hardness changes.  I would do small water changes a couple times weekly, basically enough to vacuum out any uneaten food/fish poop.

Since he appears to have reacted badly to having 4 different medications (the Fungus Clear is 3 different medications) in his water, let’s try sticking with just the Kanaplex for the next few days unless he starts to get worse.  Follow the directions closely for the actual amount of water in the tank, not the stated tank volume.  Do you have the 10 gallon full or part full?  Lower water levels can be very helpful for Bettas if your filter will still work with lowered levels.  Even an inch or 2 lower is good.  It makes it much easier for them to get to the surface for a breath.  Do you have at least 2 air stones or bubblers in the tank?  One on the sponge filter plus one more is fine.  Keep his temp at least at 80’F and between 80-82 is fine.  That temp is another reason for needing extra air, though, so keep that in mind.  Smaller bubbles are better since they create more surface area which means more lift and water turn over but still less surface agitation than large bubbles which appear annoying for some Bettas.

I would be adding aquarium salt at least at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.  I would also be boiling the catappa leaves to help extract the tannins as much as possible, letting the leaves and the boiled water cool to tank temp, then adding all of it into the tank.  You want the leaves softening up and releasing tannins and you want enough tannins in the water for a very noticeable tint.  If your leaves are releasing tannins well, then you don’t have to keep adding leaves every time you do a small water change.  Every other or every third water change might need more leaves.  Rooibos tea has more tannins than IAL’s (and it’s delicious) but no studies on it that I can find.  I’ve had decent results from it, anecdotally.  I do kind of feel better about adding something known to be safe for humans to ingest.  🤷🏻‍♀️ Whether that means anything for the fish is anyone’s guess.

Keep using the API Master test kit for the most accurate results - make very certain to follow directions explicitly and shake those reagent bottles well, especially for the nitrates test.  If you want to use test strips to compare so you can verify their accuracy, now would be a good time to do that since you’ll be testing often.  Please test at least twice weekly, more often if you can, and keep posting results with daily or every other day pics if you can.  I’ll follow this thread so I get alerts with any postings.

Hope some of this helps.  Keep us posted on progress.

[Goldie Blue]

@A Moore How is Pinky doing today? Any improvement?

[A Moore]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:24 PM, Odd Duck said:

let’s try sticking with just the Kanaplex for the next few days unless he starts to get worse.  Follow the directions closely for the actual amount of water in the tank, not the stated tank volume.  Do you have the 10 gallon full or part full?

Wow thank you for the wealth of knowledge and advice!! I have read over this several times.  I’m so thankful for everyone’s help!!!  
 

i have the KanaPlex (and Focus) mixed into Repashy gel. Pinky was eating Repashy but I think he’s mad at me for ruining his food. I see the tiny amount I am feeding him scattered at the bottom of the tank. Should I switch over to dosing the tank instead of his food?

He is mostly hanging out at the bottom and swimming every once in a while. His open wound looks much better. 
 

On 6/25/2022 at 11:24 PM, Odd Duck said:

would do small water changes a couple times weekly, basically enough to vacuum out any uneaten food/fish poop

I’ve been siphoning each day to get the food mess and pieces of the leaves and cholla log I put in there to help with the tannins and to give an extra place off the glass bottom to rest on. 
 

I added an extra air stone this evening. The water is 81.5-82. I also added 2 tbsp of salt (yesterday) and the water level is 2 1/4” below the rim. Also added 20m of Fritz Dark Water even though that’s way below dosage on the bottle. In the past I added a quart of catappa leaf tea steeped overnight to see if it helped his fins. He did not react well so I’m adding slowly. Plus I’m out of the actual leaves. 
I do have Rooibos tea I purchased to try but never did. Maybe I should try it.. just worried about all the changes I’m attacking him with. 
I have to say he really doesn’t look like he feels better even if his wound looks better. I will post pics from this evening..

[Odd Duck]

The wound does look much better.  Getting the Kanaplex into the food is great, even if he’s only eating a little of it.  Since all the red has gone, give him another 2 days of treatment, but give it every other day, giving him a break in between, and see what happens.  Continue the salt and tannins as you currently are doing and hold steady on course with your excellent tank care.  Offer some of his favorite foods to get him eating a bit more reliably.  If any hint of pink shows up in that spot go straight back on the Kanaplex every day for at least 2 more days.

Thank you for being open to suggestions and working so hard for your little guy.  Hopefully he will start to show a little regrowth in that affected area soon.  Even a tiny bit of regrowth is a really good sign.  It will take weeks to get finnage even close to normal again but he won’t need to stay on meds that whole time.  I would keep the salt and tannins up the whole time until he’s regrown as much fin and recovered as much color as possible.

[Penny]

Aww, bless his heart. i really hope he can recover. you've definitely busted your butt trying to help him and i've learned a lot from your efforts and everyones advice.

[Brandon p]

This touching and it sounds like it’s a turn a round. Always have clove oil for end of life but it has other uses. I use it cooking now that I have it than I do for fish. I saw you asked and no one answered I did not want to answer. This one hit home because one of my betta  could be it’s twin. 

[A Moore]

On 6/27/2022 at 1:39 AM, Odd Duck said:

Getting the Kanaplex into the food is great, even if he’s only eating a little of it.  Since all the red has gone, give him another 2 days of treatment, but give it every other day, giving him a break in between, and see what happens.

Sounds great! This morning I watched him eat the Repashy and immediately spit it out over and over until it broke apart in tiny pieces all over the bottom of the tank. I put in two pellets and he hasn’t bothered even looking at them.

 

On 6/27/2022 at 1:39 AM, Odd Duck said:

Continue the salt and tannins as you currently are doing and hold steady on course with your excellent tank care

Thank you for the encouragement! I ordered more 3 packs of leaves this morning. 

 

On 6/27/2022 at 1:39 AM, Odd Duck said:

Thank you for being open to suggestions and working so hard for your little guy.  Hopefully he will start to show a little regrowth in that affected area soon.  Even a tiny bit of regrowth is a really good sign.

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you and this forum!  I will continue to watch him like a hawk for any signs of improvement. He’s mainly laying around still today. I’m sure resting up from all the strain. I tested with the Master kit this afternoon and all looks good. 
 

[A Moore]

On 6/27/2022 at 9:28 AM, Brandon p said:

This touching and it sounds like it’s a turn a round. Always have clove oil for end of life but it has other uses. I use it cooking now that I have it than I do for fish. I saw you asked and no one answered I did not want to answer. This one hit home because one of my betta  could be it’s twin. 

Thank you so much for the reply. I did order clove oil but looks like I won’t be using it for fish anytime soon! I’d love to see how yours looks so I can reimagine Pinky in his former glory. Hopefully he will be looking betta in few months 🥰

[Odd Duck]

On 6/27/2022 at 12:09 PM, A Moore said:

Sounds great! This morning I watched him eat the Repashy and immediately spit it out over and over until it broke apart in tiny pieces all over the bottom of the tank. I put in two pellets and he hasn’t bothered even looking at them.

 

Thank you for the encouragement! I ordered more 3 packs of leaves this morning. 

 

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you and this forum!  I will continue to watch him like a hawk for any signs of improvement. He’s mainly laying around still today. I’m sure resting up from all the strain. I tested with the Master kit this afternoon and all looks good. 
 

The first photo looks like there might be the tiniest bit of translucent regrowth right in the notch of his ventral fin where the redness was.  Am I seeing that right?

[A Moore]

On 6/27/2022 at 10:36 PM, Odd Duck said:

The first photo looks like there might be the tiniest bit of translucent regrowth right in the notch of his ventral fin where the redness was.  Am I seeing that right?

Yes the spot that was an open wound (all closed up now as far as I can see) is like a lump and it’s whiter than the rest of his body.  I apologize for the pics, I can’t get clear ones in this tank. Here are two other pics I took this morning 

Repashy makes a mess 🥴 looks like I hasn’t just siphoned it up the night before! A glass bottom tank looks terrible .. in this case anyway. 

I checked ammonia levels tonight and they are still at zero. 
 

[A Moore]

Pinky attacked the Repashy without the meds in it! He gets exhausted just eating though and has to take breaks. He’s still mostly lying around on the bottom with occasional swimming in spurts.  He looks miserable but his body still appears to be healing.
I siphoned out the mess at the bottom again tonight, just taking out 2 1/2 gallons. I added a betta sling i saw in Goldie Blues tank (found on Etsy). Pinky hasn’t been interested but it’s only been one day.
My CoOp order with more IAL will be here Thursday so I can continue to increase tannins and have more leaf cover at the bottom for him to rest on. Todays pics are below ..

[BAT]

I. Have had good luck with using salt and increasing the concentration every other day to a max of 1 tbsp to 1 gallon. 
 

I have read online of some fish having adverse effects when fungus clear used when open sores present. 
 

kanaplex and salt have helped me in the past.

[A Moore]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:45 PM, BAT said:

I. Have had good luck with using salt and increasing the concentration every other day to a max of 1 tbsp to 1 gallon. 
 

I have read online of some fish having adverse effects when fungus clear used when open sores present. 
 

kanaplex and salt have helped me in the past.

Thank you for your experience!! I’m still at 2 tbsp in 10 gallons (or a little under 10 g) and haven’t increased. I have brewed two more large CoOp catappa leaves in a pint jar and added a third not boiled. So 3 leaves I started with appear to not be releasing tannins any more and I have the 3 other leaves and a piece of cholla wood in there. The tank is quite dark. When I changed out 2.5 gallons this evening (siphoning out the leftover food and waste) I just added the same amount of salt back into the replacement  water. I felt like maybe it was too dark in there so diluted it a bit with that little water change.
 

He has eaten tiny amounts of the KanaPlex mixed food. 

Have you dosed the tank before or mixed in food? 
Pinky is hiding in the leaves all day and looks rather miserable. He leans over from his own weight and mostly sits in the same area with an occasional swim around the tank in small spurts at the bottom. 

One day he looks like he has fin growth and the next his body looks dark and tail looks almost red streaked. I’m not sure if fish get sepsis but that’s what comes to mind when I look at him. 
Thank you for the continued support. Here are tonight’s pics 

No idea why my pics are posting upside down tonight 

 

[Torrey]

You have put in a lot of work. The glass bottom tank is a pain to look at, and it's the easiest way to get good pictures of a fish without stressing the fish.

When I was treating Krishna for bad body and fin rot, I had to gradually increase salinity to 1 TBS per 3 gallons to *maintain* health, and 1 TBS/ 2.5 gallons to restart the healing if we regressed. I used so much IAL the water looked like strong Irish tea.

I am thinking a guard around the heater may be beneficial. Some fish will burn themselves in a search for warmer water to help heal. I have used a heat lamp and a Pymeter, so the heat lamp (be very sure there is no risk of contact with water, massive fire risk) would keep the top 5" of water at 82-84 F, or get a guard for the heater and keep entire tank at 80 - 82F.

I could also be completely wrong for Pinky, that has been merely been my experience.

I think I see a return of reddish coloration, if the picture is matching what you see in the tank, I would get back on the Kanaplex as Odd Duck recommended.

If possible, to decrease stress and improve water quality, try feeding tinier amounts of kanaplex, and use a nasal syringe or something similar to just remove the food debris within the hour of feeding. Better (if possible) to feed less food at a time, and feed a little more frequently. Easier on digestion an absorption, and reduces risk of fouling the water.

[Odd Duck]

Yes, please increase the salt to 1 tablespoon per 3 gallons and don’t worry about the water being too dark. They come from waters naturally rich in tannins so you’re not overdoing it until you can barely see the fish.  If you haven’t re-dosed Kanaplex in the last 48 hours, please give another dose.

Fish absolutely get septic and I think that’s exactly what’s happened with your little man.  That’s why I recommended the kanamycin instead of neomycin.  It’s a broader spectrum antibiotic than neomycin.  That’s also why I’m pushing for tannins.  They have a natural antiseptic quality without causing any known harm except possible pH changes, but with small water changes twice weekly the pH should stay stable enough.  The only reason I don’t recommend dosing higher on the tannins is so you can better see and monitor his lesions.

[A Moore]

On 7/1/2022 at 12:29 AM, Torrey said:

am thinking a guard around the heater may be beneficial. Some fish will burn themselves in a search for warmer water to help heal. I have used a heat lamp and a Pymeter, so the heat lamp

My heater does have a guard around it so that’s good. Yesterday our AC went out in our home here in sweltering , humid Middle TN. We have 2 portable AC units running and fans, however…. Pinky’s tank is 85.4 this morning!!! I’ve been keeping it at 81.5-82. He’s getting tons of heat! I have the top mostly off of the aquarium now. I changed 2.5 g of water last night with cooler water (82)(dropped to 83.5) but it’s been around 84 overnight. My husband is working on it and an AC company is coming this evening. 
    
 Pinky has been staying under the leaves but came out to see me. I fed KanaPlex Repashy and he gulped down a mouthful immediately.  I will go ahead and add some additional salt now and another leaf this evening unless advised not to. While taking pics, he showed off a little and came to the surface! I haven’t seen that in several days! At first he came over to me —and it could be me—but I swear he leaned over to show me his wound … 😅
 

Incidentally, the snails that came over in the filter from the old tank are doing just fine. 

 

 

I have no idea again why this photo keeps getting flipped upside down when I link it 

He’s also up at the top in his floating log because hopefully it’s cooler up there 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Poor fella.  He's really having a rough time.  At least he's got you. ❤️

[A Moore]

Husband fixed the air conditioning unit! The tank is already down to 83.8!!! 😅 
 

I ordered what’s called a “Poth-O-Carry” on Etsy. It’s a small planter that hangs on the tank and you put pothos plant cuttings in it. It’s supposed to help filter out nitrites. Maybe it will die with the salt but thought worth a shot in the hospital tank. 

[A Moore]

[Torrey]

The fact that he ate medicated food with more gusto... he may need the tank to stay around 83 F to 84 F (top of the tank is warmer than the bottom, as heat rises... even with evaporation) and the heat is helping boost his metabolism so he can heal better. Kind of like a fever in humans.

[A Moore]

On 7/1/2022 at 5:25 PM, Torrey said:

he may need the tank to stay around 83 F to 84 F (top of the tank is warmer than the bottom, as heat rises... even with evaporation

I kept thinking 83-84 would be terrible for him. It’s just now 82.9 in the tank. Maybe it wasn’t so bad for him after all?  I thought the top would be cooler since the lid is off and cooler air would flow across the top.  😆  He has been in the floating log all day long. It’s on the opposite side of the heater in the tank. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

He looks better from when you initially posted. He is headed in the right direction.