Angelfish Breeding

[xfretz]

Hello, 

I have two large adult angelfish that are around 2 years old. They grew up together and get along fine, and are in a 55 gallon. I’d really like to breed them but unfortunately I believe they are the same sex, male or female I’m unsure. 
 

Is there any good way to try and buy large adult angelfish? Everything I see is quarter and dime sized and would get beaten up. Would I need to get 6-8 young angels and raise them up in a second tank, then try to get pairs? Also, is 2 years old too old to breed? I’ve seen things about Angels not breeding after certain ages. 
 

They are the best fish I’ve ever had and grew really quickly, are super healthy, have lived outside in the summer in a pond and have moved around with me a few times. Id love to breed them and have a few adults that I raise from an egg. I just want to know if there’s a way to do it without there being a ton of aggression. 
 

Does anyone have experience pairing up an already adult angel, or similar fish? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Fish Folk]

This is indeed one of the more frustrating aspects of breeding angels: sexing a pair.

Typically, you buy about seven, and wait for a pair to form.

If you’re an experienced “hunter,” you can probably find what you want here. You’ll want to contact a breeder by e-mail and really explain what you’re after.

[Tihshho]

On 5/17/2022 at 10:58 AM, Fish Folk said:

This is indeed one of the more frustrating aspects of breeding angels: sexing a pair.

Typically, you buy about seven, and wait for a pair to form.

If you’re an experienced “hunter,” you can probably find what you want here. You’ll want to contact a breeder by e-mail and really explain what you’re after.

Couldn't have said this any better!

@xfretz are you looking to breed one of your specific Angles? Or are you just looking to breed Angels in general. If you're looking to just try breeding them starting with a group would be the best route. 

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 10:58 AM, Fish Folk said:

This is indeed one of the more frustrating aspects of breeding angels: sexing a pair.

Typically, you buy about seven, and wait for a pair to form.

If you’re an experienced “hunter,” you can probably find what you want here. You’ll want to contact a breeder by e-mail and really explain what you’re after.

Yeah, I guess I should make an account on aquabid. Thanks!

On 5/17/2022 at 11:59 AM, Tihshho said:

Couldn't have said this any better!

@xfretz are you looking to breed one of your specific Angles? Or are you just looking to breed Angels in general. If you're looking to just try breeding them starting with a group would be the best route. 

I was hoping to find a mate for one of mine. But I would get a group of juveniles if there really isn’t a practical way to get adults and introduce them without causing problems.

[anewbie]

They are almost certainly 2 males. If you add a female the dynamics will change and they will not be so friendly to each other so you should consider that. You can buy small angles on ebay - but check the seller and description carefully - if you are looking for a specific type that is less common (like koi with a lot of red) then there are other places. aquabid is not the place for bargins and sometime not the best place for unique fishes. Also depending on your location you can check your local lfs. Breeding angels is fun but keeping  a group of adults can be a challenge.

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 12:21 PM, anewbie said:

They are almost certainly 2 males. If you add a female the dynamics will change and they will not be so friendly to each other so you should consider that. You can buy small angles on ebay - but check the seller and description carefully - if you are looking for a specific type that is less common (like koi with a lot of red) then there are other places. aquabid is not the place for bargins and sometime not the best place for unique fishes. Also depending on your location you can check your local lfs. Breeding angels is fun but keeping  a group of adults can be a challenge.

That’s what I’m worried about, is having it cause a problem. At this point I’m thinking to just put them in a separate tank and raise up a group of 6 in the 55.

[Tihshho]

On 5/17/2022 at 12:39 PM, xfretz said:

 At this point I’m thinking to just put them in a separate tank and raise up a group of 6 in the 55.

This is a great idea. Just be sure the other tank you put the adults in has enough broken lines of sight incase of aggression coming out from them establishing new territories. 

[anewbie]

On 5/17/2022 at 12:01 PM, Tihshho said:

This is a great idea. Just be sure the other tank you put the adults in has enough broken lines of sight incase of aggression coming out from them establishing new territories. 

For fishes that size it wouldn't be feasible in a small tank. Even in his 55 they could likely find each other regardless of plant density. line of sight is important for dwarf cichlid which can hide in nook and cranny but with adult angels it would take massive structure in a very large tank to truly break line of sight. It is a nice concept mind you it just doesn't work as well with larger cichild.

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:45 PM, anewbie said:

For fishes that size it wouldn't be feasible in a small tank. Even in his 55 they could likely find each other regardless of plant density. line of sight is important for dwarf cichlid which can hide in nook and cranny but with adult angels it would take massive structure in a very large tank to truly break line of sight. It is a nice concept mind you it just doesn't work as well with larger cichild.

These two angels have lived together since they were dime sized and generally have a pretty even dynamic in terms of aggression. I’ve put them in a 29, 55, 100 gallon pond, and they don’t really beat each other up. I’m sure any females added in would change that situation but they’d do fine together in a 29 while I raise up a group in the 55. Maybe they can each find a partner in that group. Who knows? 

[anewbie]

Usually a group of male will establish a pecking order and with minor bickering now and then when someone try to change the order there won't be much fighting. However once a pair form they will want a territory and the situation will change esp when she wants to breed. My last female died recently and now all my males get along.

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 2:26 PM, anewbie said:

Usually a group of male will establish a pecking order and with minor bickering now and then when someone try to change the order there won't be much fighting. However once a pair form they will want a territory and the situation will change esp when she wants to breed. My last female died recently and now all my males get along.

Makes a lot of sense. My black marble was larger at first and was super aggressive but then eventually became the smaller of the two so it kind of evened out.

[Tihshho]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:45 PM, anewbie said:

For fishes that size it wouldn't be feasible in a small tank. Even in his 55 they could likely find each other regardless of plant density. line of sight is important for dwarf cichlid which can hide in nook and cranny but with adult angels it would take massive structure in a very large tank to truly break line of sight. It is a nice concept mind you it just doesn't work as well with larger cichild.

My comment is towards relocating the adults if they were to go in a smaller tank. As for 6 juviniles in a 55, that is more than feasible as they grow up. Blocked lines of sight, are not just areas for fish to crawl to to get away from an aggressor (such as a cave), but more so that if they go out of sight of the aggressor who has a small territory they will not be instantly targeted. 

Angels have successfully, by many, been reared to breeding size in 55's for longer than I've been in the hobby. The key is to break up lines of sight and introducing dithers. Dominant fish of course will establish and defend a territory, but diluting the aggression or making a less dominant fish less visible through the entire tank assists in solving this issue. 

If @xfretz is looking to breed the Angels once they start to show who is pairing, it's always ideal to pull the pair to let them have a tank of their own to spawn. Or put in a divder to keep out the other Angels from the breeding territory of an established pair. 

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 2:52 PM, Tihshho said:

My comment is towards relocating the adults if they were to go in a smaller tank. As for 6 juviniles in a 55, that is more than feasible as they grow up. Blocked lines of sight, are not just areas for fish to crawl to to get away from an aggressor (such as a cave), but more so that if they go out of sight of the aggressor who has a small territory they will not be instantly targeted. 

Angels have successfully, by many, been reared to breeding size in 55's for longer than I've been in the hobby. The key is to break up lines of sight and introducing dithers. Dominant fish of course will establish and defend a territory, but diluting the aggression or making a less dominant fish less visible through the entire tank assists in solving this issue. 

If @xfretz is looking to breed the Angels once they start to show who is pairing, it's always ideal to pull the pair to let them have a tank of their own to spawn. Or put in a divder to keep out the other Angels from the breeding territory of an established pair. 

Yeah I would have a 29 ready to go if two started to pair off. Then my dithers would just head back to gen pop in the 55

[anewbie]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:52 PM, Tihshho said:

My comment is towards relocating the adults if they were to go in a smaller tank. As for 6 juviniles in a 55, that is more than feasible as they grow up. Blocked lines of sight, are not just areas for fish to crawl to to get away from an aggressor (such as a cave), but more so that if they go out of sight of the aggressor who has a small territory they will not be instantly targeted. 

Angels have successfully, by many, been reared to breeding size in 55's for longer than I've been in the hobby. The key is to break up lines of sight and introducing dithers. Dominant fish of course will establish and defend a territory, but diluting the aggression or making a less dominant fish less visible through the entire tank assists in solving this issue. 

If @xfretz is looking to breed the Angels once they start to show who is pairing, it's always ideal to pull the pair to let them have a tank of their own to spawn. Or put in a divder to keep out the other Angels from the breeding territory of an established pair. 

Have you bred angelfishes? I am telling you from my experience breeding and raising angelfishes in my 120; it takes a lot of effort and very dense plants to truly create places where angelfishes can't find each other; in a 29 it is just about impossible. Here is my 120 at one point in time - in the very back corner they could hide but if an angel was really mad at another angel it didn't matter much where they hid - they could always seek each other out:

--

For raising angels many people use a nearly bare 55 - there are simply too many for much aggression to persist on a single fish. In the above picture 7 of the angels are siblings and 2 are parents.

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 2:57 PM, anewbie said:

Have you bred angelfishes? I am telling you from my experience breeding and raising angelfishes in my 120; it takes a lot of effort and very dense plants to truly create places where angelfishes can't find each other; in a 29 it is just about impossible. Here is my 120 at one point in time - in the very back corner they could hide but if an angel was really mad at another angel it didn't matter much where they hid - they could always seek each other out:

--

For raising angels many people use a nearly bare 55 - there are simply too many for much aggression to persist on a single fish. In the above picture 7 of the angels are siblings and 2 are parents.

Off topic but that tank looks amazing, I want mine to look like jungles like that. Are those just huge Java ferns??

[anewbie]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, xfretz said:

Off topic but that tank looks amazing, I want mine to look like jungles like that. Are those just huge Java ferns??

On the right front is tall java fern; on the left is jungle val in the middle back are several different types of sword plants.

[Tihshho]

Yes actually. I grew up with taking care of adult breeders, fry, and juveniles from what my Dad was breeding. Intended spawning pairs were housed in 20 gallon tanks, fry were in 20's until they got past nickle size to be sold. Retained juveniles were raised up to adults in 55's and then selected for future spawning pairs. This all was done through my childhood which was long long ago. 

The thing about the hobby is that everyone has different experiences. Rather than getting aggressive about how something is done, realize there are many ways as the proverb says to 'skin a cat'. 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Tihshho

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:00 PM, anewbie said:

On the right front is tall java fern; on the left is jungle val in the middle back are several different types of sword plants.

Any tips on getting that type of growth?

On 5/17/2022 at 3:04 PM, Tihshho said:

Yes actually. I grew up with taking care of adult breeders, fry, and juveniles from what my Dad was breeding. Intended spawning pairs were housed in 20 gallon tanks, fry were in 20's until they got past nickle size to be sold. Retained juveniles were raised up to adults in 55's and then selected for future spawning pairs. This all was done through my childhood which was long long ago. 

The thing about the hobby is that everyone has different experiences. Rather than getting aggressive about how something is done, realize there are many ways as the proverb says to 'skin a cat'. 

 

Sounds like awesome experience, I’d love to have that type of set up. How many tanks total for an operation like that?

[Tihshho]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:07 PM, xfretz said:

Sounds like awesome experience, I’d love to have that type of set up. How many tanks total for an operation like that?

He mainly had three breeding tanks going at a time, so three 20's. The hold backs were kept in two 55's and the rearing tanks were five 20's. It worked for him, but I personally would do things a bit differently with what's available today. He would get more spawns than we could keep up with with the alotted space for aquariums. He mainly was working with Phillipine Blues and Pearl Scales. As I got older he started to get back to his roots with livebearers, but the last pair he was working with were Koi's. 

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:15 PM, Tihshho said:

He mainly had three breeding tanks going at a time, so three 20's. The hold backs were kept in two 55's and the rearing tanks were five 20's. It worked for him, but I personally would do things a bit differently with what's available today. He would get more spawns than we could keep up with with the alotted space for aquariums. He mainly was working with Phillipine Blues and Pearl Scales. As I got older he started to get back to his roots with livebearers, but the last pair he was working with were Koi's. 

That’s super interesting. I have a 55, two 29s, a 20L, and a 10. I could probably do a small version of that!

[Tihshho]

YMMV with any fish, so the experience I had won't laterally transfer one-for-one to you. In terms of raising up the juveniles to sub adults and adults in the 55's overstocking the tank was what spread out aggression. Fish would get moved from one 55 to the other based on size. One 55 held the smaller juveniles and the other held the larger subadults or adults. Cramming subadult and adult Angels in the 55 spread out the aggression, but doing that now wouldn't be the most ideal for my morals. 

One thing I always bring up to folks looking to breed is to make sure you're able to offload the offspring. If you're not, you'll be stuck with a lot of angels to house and feed.

[anewbie]

On 5/17/2022 at 2:07 PM, xfretz said:

Any tips on getting that type of growth?

 

There is no real magic; I have small amount of co2 being injected (co2art regulator on a 10 or 20 lb co2 canister); you want the ph drop to be approx .5 to .7 during the day - i use a smart switch to turn on an hour before lights go on and off when lights go off. The idea is to slightly acc. plant growth without risking the fishes. I have sponge filters in the back to help with aeration. My water is also not bad for plant growth - kh 3 gh 7.

I didn't mention the substrate (which is eco-complete) because my other tanks use different  substrates and i will never use eco-complete again. I find finer substrate is more optimal for the fishes. Also - if you decide to remove co2 - you have to cut all the plants down to their rhizome - else they will create a mess decaying.

-

You can get decent plant growth without co2 - these two tanks have no co2 - BUT I find the sword plants don't do as well without co2; others have better luck with sword plants and without co2 but for me they always stay small. 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by anewbie

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:33 PM, anewbie said:

There is no real magic; I have small amount of co2 being injected (co2art regulator on a 10 or 20 lb co2 canister); you want the ph drop to be approx .5 to .7 during the day - i use a smart switch to turn on an hour before lights go on and off when lights go off. The idea is to slightly acc. plant growth without risking the fishes. I have sponge filters in the back to help with aeration. My water is also not bad for plant growth - kh 3 gh 7.

I didn't mention the substrate (which is eco-complete) because my other tanks use different  substrates and i will never use eco-complete again. I find finer substrate is more optimal for the fishes. Also - if you decide to remove co2 - you have to cut all the plants down to their rhizome - else they will create a mess decaying.

Thanks for the info! I’ll have to decide if I want to get involved with injecting CO2… hard to resist when you see the tanks that have it!

[anewbie]

On 5/17/2022 at 2:36 PM, xfretz said:

Thanks for the info! I’ll have to decide if I want to get involved with injecting CO2… hard to resist when you see the tanks that have it!

I updated my post to show tanks without co2. co2 isn't needed for java fern and jungle val - it just takes a while to grow out.

[xfretz]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:31 PM, Tihshho said:

YMMV with any fish, so the experience I had won't laterally transfer one-for-one to you. In terms of raising up the juveniles to sub adults and adults in the 55's overstocking the tank was what spread out aggression. Fish would get moved from one 55 to the other based on size. One 55 held the smaller juveniles and the other held the larger subadults or adults. Cramming subadult and adult Angels in the 55 spread out the aggression, but doing that now wouldn't be the most ideal for my morals. 

One thing I always bring up to folks looking to breed is to make sure you're able to offload the offspring. If you're not, you'll be stuck with a lot of angels to house and feed.

Absolutely. I’m not looking to make any money or anything. Id like to just enjoy a breeding pair or two and raise up some nice adults for a display tank for myself and I’d give away any other ones I don’t have space for. If the breeding got to be too excessive I could always dial it back or switch it up.