Betta Fin Rot Not Healing

[Irene]

@RachelM Random thought, but does the water give you a little "shock" when you touch it? My friend went through a similar experience of not being able to stop fin rot despite good temperature, good water quality, slow water flow, antibiotics, and then salt treatment. Turns out the heater was shocking the fish.

[RachelM]

On 5/9/2022 at 2:08 PM, Cory said:

I feel that we are missing something. Basically  since we've used meds and such and it didn't help. I feel like it's a stress factor. Basically it's either an infection or it's stress. Meds usually take care of an infection.

 

Lets start with the basics.

Full tank shot that is current.

What temperature is the water? I see you say 80, is it also 80 late at night? can you set the thermostat on the thermometer? Also are you checking the temp or relying on the heater? Just because it says 80, doesn't mean it's 80.
What is the current pH?
What is the Nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia?

How long have you had the betta?

How long have you had the food?

You say you're doing partial water changes - why? is there a build up of something causing this? Also what chemicals do you add when changing water? I don't believe changing water without the goal of accomplishing something helps. For instance it doesn't make sense to add indian almond leaves, then change water 2x a day, you'll just remove the tannins. Unless there is something like ammonia or nitrite.

Have you moved the rhizome of the java ferns above the gravel line so they don't rot?

Normally all fish illness is a mystery until it's diagnosed. Right now we have the equivalent of "my car is making a sound" As mechanics we are trying to narrow it down to where is the sound coming from, when is it happening etc. Using meds, is like saying I got the car a tuneup and it still makes the sound. Adding indian almond leaves and water changes is like saying, I'm changing the oil every other day. This still doesn't get us to what is causing the problem and we are mostly playing, lets just try random things till we accidentally fix it. This is why it's critical to keep investigating. Things like regulating your light from being 24/7, to just 12 hours a day, and adding a background will be helpful long term anyway.

Hi Corey,

I have attached a few pictures of the aquarium today. The water is dark because of the Indian almond leaves. I have a heater and a separate thermometer (see photos). The thermometer corroborates what the heater is set too.

I got this betta in early January of this year and he started to show subtle signs of fin rot (or other stress) by mid March. I thought originally that it was fin rot caused by dirty gravel. I have been using a siphon tube to change the water but I realized in March that I hadn't been getting close enough to the gravel to clean it and was instead just changing the water. I realized this mistake shortly after he start showing fraying of his tail. I've been very thorough about cleaning the gravel during water changes since then. I got his food around the same time that I got him, so early January 2022. 

I've been doing frequent water changes because I've assumed that it's fin rot and that is what other folks have recommended in order to keep the water as clean as possible.  

I have moved the java ferns up out of the gravel but I'm not sure if they are healthy or not because they have black spots on them. You can get a closer look at them in the attached photos. 

I just checked the parameters and attached a photo. The only thing that looks a little low is the PH, which looks closer to 6.5 instead of 7. Would you recommend a specific brand of crushed coral to elevate the PH? Otherwise I also see the API PH Up. 

Additionally, I was thinking of doing medicated food that Colu recommended earlier. Do you have thoughts on that?

On 5/9/2022 at 4:57 PM, Irene said:

@RachelM Random thought, but does the water give you a little "shock" when you touch it? My friend went through a similar experience of not being able to stop fin rot despite good temperature, good water quality, slow water flow, antibiotics, and then salt treatment. Turns out the heater was shocking the fish.

Hi Irene! Thanks for reaching out! I do not feel a noticeable shock when I touch the water but I will keep an eye on it. Was the shock very noticeable for your friend? 

[Cory]

My best advice would be to do these:

Get your water checked by another kit or store. See if the pH is indeed 6.5. If it is, i'd add some crushed coral after washing it. Most all crushed corals are similar and no one brand is that much better.

Next do you have a cooking thermometer to read the temp in the aquarium? Those digital thermometers are notorious for being off. You can often see in reviews, where people buy 3, and all 3 are different, and maybe off by several degrees. Basically double check it's actually 80, just like we are double checking that it's a ph of 6.5.

As far as cleaning your aquarium. Gravel vaccing doesn't clean in the way people think it does. Removing physical debris, isn't the culprit usually of a disease. Bad water parameters usually is. For instance in the wild there might be a solid 12 inchs of mulm and is a great living condition. Because the build up isn't affecting the water conditions anymore.

 

Conversely changing water often, using chemicals, might be causing a ton of stress. As for dosing meds in the food. I personally don't see signs that this is fin rot. To me this is like having the flu, and then having you take cough syrup because it can't hurt. Except it can when you throw it back up. Also it can delay finding the right answer, as most people "try" lots of things without diagnosing.

I'd consider getting your betta a different pelleted food. You've got a container that's been open for 4 months, it will lose how many nutrients it has over time. While I don't believe this is the cause, I also think that long term it could become problematic as old food is hard to give nutrition to a fish.

[Brian]

Maybe this was asked and answered, but he is eating?  If so do you have any frozen blood worms and brine shrimp?  Are we even sure this is Fin Rot?

what kind of gravel?  It isn’t anything sharp like crushed granite?  Heater, does it have a guard on it?  Maybe when he is resting his fins are to close to heating element?  Maybe buy or make a betta hammock so he can rest.  Also how strong is current?  Is it possible to just use a sponge filter with a mild current?  

[Brian]

I’m thinking fin loss and not fin rot.  Maybe caused by stress.   You could have more than one or two things causing stress.  Netting, diet, any sharp edges in the tank or decorations…. Something 

[RachelM]

On 5/9/2022 at 8:06 PM, Cory said:

My best advice would be to do these:

Get your water checked by another kit or store. See if the pH is indeed 6.5. If it is, i'd add some crushed coral after washing it. Most all crushed corals are similar and no one brand is that much better.

Next do you have a cooking thermometer to read the temp in the aquarium? Those digital thermometers are notorious for being off. You can often see in reviews, where people buy 3, and all 3 are different, and maybe off by several degrees. Basically double check it's actually 80, just like we are double checking that it's a ph of 6.5.

As far as cleaning your aquarium. Gravel vaccing doesn't clean in the way people think it does. Removing physical debris, isn't the culprit usually of a disease. Bad water parameters usually is. For instance in the wild there might be a solid 12 inchs of mulm and is a great living condition. Because the build up isn't affecting the water conditions anymore.

 

Conversely changing water often, using chemicals, might be causing a ton of stress. As for dosing meds in the food. I personally don't see signs that this is fin rot. To me this is like having the flu, and then having you take cough syrup because it can't hurt. Except it can when you throw it back up. Also it can delay finding the right answer, as most people "try" lots of things without diagnosing.

I'd consider getting your betta a different pelleted food. You've got a container that's been open for 4 months, it will lose how many nutrients it has over time. While I don't believe this is the cause, I also think that long term it could become problematic as old food is hard to give nutrition to a fish.

Okay, so I have a fairly strong theory now... I think Irene is right and that my heater is shocking my poor fish. I touched the water today to test it and I got a little shock. I immediately removed the heater and now am quickly trying to get a new heater today to see if that helps. Do you have thoughts on the top fin compact 5-10 gallon heater? I see that I can pick that up this afternoon so that the temp doesn't fluctuate too much. If not, what heater would you recommend? 

On 5/9/2022 at 4:57 PM, Irene said:

@RachelM Random thought, but does the water give you a little "shock" when you touch it? My friend went through a similar experience of not being able to stop fin rot despite good temperature, good water quality, slow water flow, antibiotics, and then salt treatment. Turns out the heater was shocking the fish.

Irene, I think you are right! I think my heater is shocking my poor fish. I touched the water today to test it and I got a little shock. I immediately removed the heater and now am quickly trying to get a new heater today to see if that helps. Do you have thoughts on the top fin compact 5-10 gallon heater? I see that I can pick that up this afternoon so that the temp doesn't fluctuate too much. If not, what heater would you recommend? 

[Cory]

@RachelM Well you've got a couple options, get any heater to hold you over for a few days and then order something. Whether it's ours or another. or try and pick the best heater that is available to you. Pretty much any heaters will get you buy that is adjustable for like 6+ months. Then it comes down to longevity of the heater. We currently guarantee ours for 1 year. In a case like this where we could prove stray current, we'd ship out a replacement to you same day or refund if you were gonna buy one local etc.

[RachelM]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:48 PM, Cory said:

@RachelM Well you've got a couple options, get any heater to hold you over for a few days and then order something. Whether it's ours or another. or try and pick the best heater that is available to you. Pretty much any heaters will get you buy that is adjustable for like 6+ months. Then it comes down to longevity of the heater. We currently guarantee ours for 1 year. In a case like this where we could prove stray current, we'd ship out a replacement to you same day or refund if you were gonna buy one local etc.

Okay, I think I will buy a cheap heater in the meantime and order yours which will hopefully come in a few days. In the meantime, I'm struggling to find information online about fish recovering from being shocked and how to ensure that it doesn't happen again. After I unplugged the heater I continued to feel a shock for a bit but I don't feel it anymore. Do you have any knowledge about something like this happening and how to help my betta heal? 

[Cory]

@RachelM The cure for a lot of things is rest, and less stress. So time should fix this if it was the culprit. As for preventing it, technically you'd want to run a grounding probe, can find them for less than $10, they basically look like your digital thermometer but plug into the wall.

[Torrey]

Cory, thank you and Irene so much for the reminder to double check the basics.

Just because a hammer fixed a similar presentation the last 5 times, doesn't mean a hammer is the right tool this time. 

Sometimes, a grounding probe to test for stray current is what is needed. 

[Irene]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:54 AM, Torrey said:

Cory, thank you and Irene so much for the reminder to double check the basics.

Just because a hammer fixed a similar presentation the last 5 times, doesn't mean a hammer is the right tool this time. 

Sometimes, a grounding probe to test for stray current is what is needed. 

I've actually never personally experienced stray current, so you can thank @Cory's live streams for that one. They're a gold mine for random information that you never know when you'll need. 🙂

[w0walana]

Definitely not fin rot but fin nipping. Follow other tips for reducing stress 

[BAT]

Do we think it could be a gram negative not covered by the maracyn? Maybe kanaplex needed for broader gram negative coverage?