Setup

[Zac]

Hey all,

I’m considering remodeling my 30 gallon and getting completely new fish/plants. Here’s my planned plants/fish I want to keep. I am new to plants so I’ve done a lot of research. The tank will be around 80°F

Fish:
2 apistos (haven’t decided on species)

3 hill stream loaches 

5-10 pencil fish

Plants:

Dwarf Sagittaria 

cryptocoryne wendtii 

pogostemon stellatus octopus

java moss

water sprite

apongoneton crispus

sort of anubias

I would like to get 2 apistos to breed and send the male into a 10 gal quarantine tank so the mother can raise the fry. Will the mother act too aggressive towards the pencil fish? Since pencil fish mouths are small I’m not too worried about them eating the fry. Will the fry be okay in a 30 gallon or would it be better to leave the pencil fish out and just have loaches and apistos?  I would like to cycle the tank with plants as well so any advice/input on that and the above would be great. I’ve watched all the aquarium co-op videos on it and Irene’s but any other tips they may have not addressed would help

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndreaW]

I can't give you breeding or fish advice, but I'll share what to expect when you re-scape a tank as that is what I've been working on lately with my 46G.

When I moved my 46G at the end of last year, I tried to keep everything intact and didn't change anything at that point because I wanted to maintain the nitrogen cycle and beneficial bacteria (BB) as much as possible. I was also keeping the same inhabitants. The move went well, and my cycle stayed intact, but then 2 weeks later my sister showed up with some half-frozen fish I ended up taking in. With the increased bio load, I was able to maintain the nitrogen cycle, but I did have some diatoms show up. I no longer had my "well-seasoned" tank even though it was "cycled."

Last month, I re-scaped the same tank, after everything stabilized. Once again, I kept the same inhabitants, and wanted to change the least amount possible to maintain my cycled and BB. I kept the same filtration and substrate. I removed the decorations and plastic plants (lost some BB there) and added driftwood and live plants. Even with that minimal change, I still disrupted things enough that I still have some diatoms, but the cycle stayed steady (no ammonia, no nitrites, steady nitrates).

If I had changed more than that, I think it would have disrupted my cycle and I would have had to re-established it, although it would have been easier and gone quicker being able to use seeded materials from the tank. I think keeping the same inhabitants probably also helped as I didn't change anything too drastically. If I had done more, I would have been more nervous about having fish in the tank while re-establishing things.

As far as cycling with plants, there's not much difference except the learning curve that comes with keeping aquatic plants. Dealing with the plant melt wasn't too bad for me but some plants did melt back to nothing, while others showed new growth almost immediately. I did have to change lighting on my tank to have enough for the plants I wanted to keep. Even though I have plenty of nitrates, I still have to dose Easy Green to make sure I have enough other nutrients for my plants. If your bio-load is too low (like it is in my Betta tank) you will have to add EG on a regular basis to make up for the lack of Nitrogen/nutrients.

Otherwise, just make a plan and research (fish and plants) and ask lots of questions!

[Fish Folk]

Sounds like a good plan! As long as Loaches don’t poach Apisto eggs after lights out. I doubt the female Apisto will seriously harm Pencilfish. I’m doing something similar…

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Yeah I would say the only thing that could be problematic is the loaches as @Fish Folkindicated. The rest of the plan is very sound. Coryadoras may work as they naturally appear in the same environment pygmys use the middle and bottom probably would end up schooling with the pencilfish. A single bristlenose and/or maybe 3-5 otos would be a better choice for this setup for algae. nerites would also work, only downside is the eggs they put everywhere. 

[Zac]

On 4/15/2022 at 4:20 PM, Fish Folk said:

Sounds like a good plan! As long as Loaches don’t poach Apisto eggs after lights out. I doubt the female Apisto will seriously harm Pencilfish. I’m doing something similar…

Any suggestions with getting Apistos to breed? My idea is to spend a little more to hopefully get an adult male and female so I don’t have to buy 5-6 fish. Would a single male and female be an issue if conditions are right?

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@ZacDepends on the species of apisto. Some are harem breeders and a few species are pair bonded. Do your research and if they are harem breeders you have 2 choices - 1) buy a group of 5-7 and let them sort it out 2) buy a pair or trio. 

[Fish Folk]

On 4/15/2022 at 4:52 PM, Zac said:

Any suggestions with getting Apistos to breed? My idea is to spend a little more to hopefully get an adult male and female so I don’t have to buy 5-6 fish. Would a single male and female be an issue if conditions are right?

We’ve worked with Apistogramma Cacatouides and Apistogramma Bitaeniata. Gotten fry from both in a context with multiple pairs in a 20 long. But haven’t successfully raised fry to maturity. @tolstoy21 has a good system worked out, and might offer more helpful tips.

I think _breeding_ in 10 gal might work best, removing male to larger tank once the deed is done.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:25 PM, Zac said:

Will the mother act too aggressive towards the pencil fish? Since pencil fish mouths are small I’m not too worried about them eating the fry.

In have no experience with pencil fish, but apistos tend to hang near the bottom, and pencil fish towards the top, right? I'd say they'll be fine. The larger the tank the less aggressive the female will be, as your fish will more likely be spread out naturally, and have ample space to retreat to and stay away if the female pecks at them.

The female-on-male aggression I've seen tends to happen in tighter quarters, with less aqua-scaping, where the female can see the male at all times unless he's cowering behind a sponge filter. Also, the males just can't seems to stay away and so put themselves in harms way.

I'd say the female apisto is more likely ti get aggressive towards other bottom dwellers who accidentally wander to near the fry. But if there is ample room and hiding space, everyone will more than likely be fine.

I have two pairs now that have eaten multiple spawns but have also actually figured out how to co-parent peacefully. So, unless you're looking for instant fry to have soon, you could also experiment with leaving the male in, chancing a few spawns and seeing if the parents figure it all out. 

I typically don't do this, but thats only because I'm breeding fish to sell, so a lost spawn = lost revenue. 

As for which apisto to get -- get the one you enjoy the most! I've had luck with Cacatuoides, Baenschi and Agassizii pairing up pretty easily without much fuss or investing in a larger group.  The only time I've had problems pairing any of these is when I've introduced young males to older females. In these scenarios, the females seems uninterested and to get violent towards the younger males.

Good luck!

[Zac]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:27 PM, tolstoy21 said:

In have no experience with pencil fish, but apistos tend to hang near the bottom, and pencil fish towards the top, right? I'd say they'll be fine. The larger the tank the less aggressive the female will be, as your fish will more likely be spread out naturally, and have ample space to retreat to and stay away if the female pecks at them.

The female-on-male aggression I've seen tends to happen in tighter quarters, with less aqua-scaping, where the female can see the male at all times unless he's cowering behind a sponge filter. Also, the males just can't seems to stay away and so put themselves in harms way.

I'd say the female apisto is more likely ti get aggressive towards other bottom dwellers who accidentally wander to near the fry. But if there is ample room and hiding space, everyone will more than likely be fine.

I have two pairs now that have eaten multiple spawns but have also actually figured out how to co-parent peacefully. So, unless you're looking for instant fry to have soon, you could also experiment with leaving the male in, chancing a few spawns and seeing if the parents figure it all out. 

I typically don't do this, but thats only because I'm breeding fish to sell, so a lost spawn = lost revenue. 

As for which apisto to get -- get the one you enjoy the most! I've had luck with Cacatuoides, Baenschi and Agassizii pairing up pretty easily without much fuss or investing in a larger group.  The only time I've had problems pairing any of these is when I've introduced young males to older females. In these scenarios, the females seems uninterested and to get violent towards the younger males.

Good luck!

How often will they breed if the male is left in? Will they breed again before the fry are of selling size? Is there ever male on female aggression? I had a pair of angels and they laid eggs, ate them multiple times, and the male almost killed the female eventually  (they were in a 29). 

[tolstoy21]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:36 PM, Zac said:

I had a pair of angels and they laid eggs, ate them multiple times, and the male almost killed the female eventually

Someone gifted me 6 angels and I put them in a 125 community tank and they all paired off (3 pairs) and laid eggs and hatched fry like every week, on every amazon sword leaf in the tank, then went into non-stop psycho mode and attacked everything and each other in the tank in a non-stop frenzy of fish-on-fish violence. Gave them away after 2 months of continual blood baths! Not doing that again.

I cant say how often they will breed if the male is left in, as I don't normally do this, so I don't have any genuine observations about that.  I do have one male and three females in that 125 community, and I never see breeding activity. It's also full of Odessa Barbs, so my guess is, if they do breed, the fry probably last 5 minutes tops.

I don't typically see male on female aggression. The males can get a little pushy with trying to breed, but the females are pretty good at batting them off, or retreating to their caves if they males become annoyingly flirty. 

[SJ fishing]

My panduros spawn about one every 3 weeks, but have eaten the eggs everytime.  This week they spawned again and I pulled the male out.  The female was out of the cave today and no sign of fry so wondering if she is the culprit

[Zac]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:44 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Someone gifted me 6 angels and I put them in a 125 community tank and they all paired off (3 pairs) and laid eggs and hatched fry like every week, on every amazon sword leaf in the tank, then went into non-stop psycho mode and attacked everything and each other in the tank in a non-stop frenzy of fish-on-fish violence. Gave them away after 2 months of continual blood baths! Not doing that again.

I cant say how often they will breed if the male is left in, as I don't normally do this, so I don't have any genuine observations about that.  I do have one male and three females in that 125 community, and I never see breeding activity. It's also full of Odessa Barbs, so my guess is, if they do breed, the fry probably last 5 minutes tops.

I don't typically see male on female aggression. The males can get a little pushy with trying to breed, but the females are pretty good at batting them off, or retreating to their caves if they males become annoyingly flirty. 

That’s unfortunate. Hopefully everything works out 

[tolstoy21]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:24 PM, Zac said:

That’s unfortunate. Hopefully everything works out 

Well it worked out very well because I put 5 of the angels on Craigs List and gave them away very quickly (as breeding pairs +1), and kept a single Angel.

I originally got them when I went to buy plecos locally, and the breeder included them in the sale by saying 'Oh hey here are some angels too!" When I showed up, they were already bagged and in the box ready to go, so how could I say no. I'm guessing he had too many.

I did give them a good chance, but I'm guessing the environment, with its many large sword plants to breed on, was too inviting to resist baby making!

My 125 is maybe a foot away from my office desk, so I got to watch them violently (understandably so) defend spawn after spawn from some very fast and hungry Odessa Barbs and full-sized Colombia Tetras. Shame too because the parent were very good at caring for their eggs and getting them to hatch in copious amounts. But, a hungry Odessa's gotta eat too!

Poor little wigglers. Nature has its ways.

Edited April 16, 2022 by tolstoy21