Any reason not to cut hole in UGF?

[Guppysnail]

I want to cut out the slats that are under the uplift tube circle.  Reason being if it ever backs up I can run a siphon tube down the uplift tube to remove excess if needed vs gutting the tank. Any reason not to?

Thanks.  

Edited April 12, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Widgets]

Your UGF plates are different than mine.

How secure does the uplift tube attach to the plates? Could they be dislodged with tank maintenance? If so leaving the gravel guard in place would let you reattach the uplift tube without requiring a teardown.

How many locations are there for possible attachment of the uplift tubes? If there are multiple spots, you would want to make sure you are happy with the location before you remove the gravel guard. You could attach some plastic craft mesh to function as an alternative gravel guard if needed.

The gravel guard serves to keep the airstone above the plate and ensure the bubbles go up the uplift tube instead of escaping through the gravel. 

How high does the plate sit above the bottom of the tank? Were you thinking of running the vacuum tube straight down, or trying to push it under the plate? How big of a vacuum tube can you realistically use, and how much floor area could it really clear?

Anything that is below the plates, except for things you let get there during the installation process, came through the slits in the plates. Could a vacuum tube pressed all the way down to the plate serve to suck it back through the slits? 

The gravel guard does provide a slight restriction, so removing it could yield a slight improvement in flow rate.

I have never seen a need to vacuum under my plates, but I read others talk about how it is required during every water change because they want to remove all the mulm that collects there.

[Guppysnail]

@Widgets the hose to my python fits under without the siphon attached.  I was going to slide it down the tube and run it under if I needed. I’m probably overthinking this the internet makes me paranoid.  
I’m concerned because I want one in my guppy fry grow out that also has permanent residents and a BN pleco (Lefty) that lives there. I’m concerned about fry food going down because fry never get every bite before it sinks. The airstone is hooked to a rigid tube with a rubber stop that does not allow it to drop further than I set it.  The tube has feet that set in then twist to lock. I was going to cover the outflow with mesh so fry and shrimp cannot swim in down the tube.  One shrimp already made its way under in the Pygmy tank. It got back out but if it had molted and grown it may not have been able to. Again overthinking I’m certain. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

Never mind.  I had unboxed this to take those pics for @Widgets.  The grate it only attached with 2 little pieces of plastic drop set in. If I cut it the uplift tube will not sit securely.  
 

Next question has anyone ever had the need to vac under one that has been running for a few years and able to see up underneath?  All the silly horror stories of buildup and clogging on the net made me wonder but it seems far fetched. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:11 AM, Guppysnail said:

The grate it only attached with 2 little pieces of plastic drop set in. If I cut it the uplift tube will not sit securely.

Though I don't think you'll need to vac under the plate, however...  You could cut just the slats out of the grate leaving a larger hole to improve water flow, while maintaining the secure hold for the uplift tube.  I'd probably go that route - and indeed did back in the day when I was using UGFs.  Mine would be a worry about unimpeded flow. 

[Guppysnail]

@OnlyGenusCaps thanks.  I think I will do just this then. 

[Widgets]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:55 AM, Guppysnail said:

the hose to my python fits under without the siphon attached.  I was going to slide it down the tube and run it under if I needed.

In the picture, the plate does not appear tall enough to let the python hose bend and go under the plates. I think you would only be able to get it down the uplift tube.

On 4/12/2022 at 7:11 AM, Guppysnail said:

The grate it only attached with 2 little pieces of plastic drop set in. If I cut it the uplift tube will not sit securely.

If you are careful, you could clear out a central area of the gravel guard, leaving the perimeter to support the uplift tube.

On 4/12/2022 at 7:11 AM, Guppysnail said:

Next question has anyone ever had the need to vac under one that has been running for a few years and able to see up underneath?  All the silly horror stories of buildup and clogging on the net made me wonder but it seems far fetched.

I personally have not felt the need to clean under the UGF plates. I have read many posts talking about the need to tear down the tank because of the build-up of mulm under the plates. I personally believe that they are just coming from an aesthetic pov, and have not yet learned the valuable role that mulm plays in the ecosystem.

On 4/12/2022 at 6:55 AM, Guppysnail said:

I was going to cover the outflow with mesh so fry and shrimp cannot swim in down the tube.  One shrimp already made its way under in the Pygmy tank. It got back out but if it had molted and grown it may not have been able to.

Maybe cut a foam cap for the uplift tube. My uplift tubes have a spot for a carbon cartridge. It would be easy to cut foam to match.

If any shrimp do get stuck below the plates, they will grow up as cave shrimp. Maybe over time they would evolve some sort of bioluminescence. Imagine having glow in the dark shrimp.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:23 AM, Widgets said:

Maybe cut a foam cap for the uplift tube. My uplift tubes have a spot for a carbon cartridge. It would be easy to cut foam to match.

I thought about this but I do not want restricted uplift. I have gobs of mesh media bag and zip ties. I think mesh would be one less part to easily clog. I want some detritus under there. I’m trying to culture microfauna from it.  I don’t remember from childhood needing to vac under or when tearing down there being gobs of clogged stuff. I just cleared away gravel in a spot and stuck a cut end of a garden hose on top of the plate to siphon once in a blue moon. That is the only maintenance I remember.  I do like the thought @OnlyGenusCaps caps put out about removing apthe interior of the  grate increasing flow. 

[Widgets]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:55 AM, Guppysnail said:

I’m concerned about fry food going down because fry never get every bite before it sinks.

While I feel that overfeeding (and overpooping) is the primary cause of gravel bed clogging, I don't think overfeeding fry will be an issue. Fry food is typically small enough to just fall through. Larger food will settle on the surface of the gravel bed or just below. If it accumulates faster than the natural decomposition processes can deal with it, then it will clog the gravel bed. A light vacuuming should take care of any issue there.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:31 AM, Widgets said:

While I feel that overfeeding (and overpooping) is the primary cause of gravel bed clogging, I don't think overfeeding fry will be an issue. Fry food is typically small enough to just fall through. Larger food will settle on the surface of the gravel bed or just below. If it accumulates faster than the natural decomposition processes can deal with it, then it will clog the gravel bed. A light vacuuming should take care of any issue there.

That’s what I’m hoping. There are only 6 permanent residents but at the end of girl grow out and newfry drop overlap that tank is ridiculous overstocked for a month every 3 months. It’s fun. 

[gardenman]

"Impeding flow." Flow through a UG filter is typically pretty low. You're not really trying to push hundreds of gallons per hour through a UG filter. If you look at the flow rates many pros use with Matten filters or even sponge filters, the flow rate is very low. Often ridiculously low. That's done to keep the water in contact with the bacteria as long as possible. If you're old enough to remember the old "I love Lucy" episode where she's working on the candy assembly line and all heck breaks loose when they speed it up, that's how I envision the bacteria in my UG filters. A nice, slow flow through the filter gives them time to grab the food (ammonia and nitrites) in the water and leave it clean. If the flow goes too fast, they're scrambling to eat it all in time. "Wait! Come back! I wasn't done yet!" 

I spend way too much time on YouTube watching aquarium videos, and in video after video of professional breeders and fish farms, you see ridiculously low flow rates in wildly overpopulated tanks. Why? Because it's what works best. As hobbyists we're inclined to think faster and more flow, is better. "I need a more powerful filter!" Eh, maybe not. The people who make a living raising fish tend to go the other way. I wouldn't worry about flow rates through a UG filter as long as there's some flow, you should be fine. Water treatment plants often use baffles to slow the flow of water through their commercial biofiltration systems to give the bacteria more exposure time to consume the waste in the water. Impeding flow through a UG filter is arguably the least of your worries. You might even be better off impeding the flow. Weird, huh? It's not how we're typically taught to think, but it's what seems to work.

[Guppysnail]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:59 AM, gardenman said:

If you're old enough to remember the old "I love Lucy" episode

I wish I wasn’t but I sure am 🤣

On 4/12/2022 at 9:59 AM, gardenman said:

Impeding flow

This is my worry because of my ineptitude and lazy streak of not cleaning filters unless they clog🤣 I set all my hobs and canisters on low for the time extension. I agree. 

[Widgets]

To me, the Lucy episode is a good analogy for a discrete linear "once and done" process. Our tanks are a continuous system. There is always "dirty" water passing by the bacteria and they eat what they can/need as it passes by. The size of the bacteria colony, the amount of waste products, and the dissolved oxygen in the water are critical factors. Whichever factor is lowest will be the limiting factor. If the water flows faster, not all of it will be cleaned this pass, but there will be more passes. As long as the bacteria have the wastes available, they will be eating. The faster flow will not reduce the quantity of waste eaten by the bacteria.

The breeders are optimizing for cost. More flow above the minimum required will eat into their profits. We may have other reasons for increasing the flow. My fish seem to enjoy swimming in the currents, and I enjoy watching them playing in the current. I have power filtration rated for 150 gallons for my 37 gallon tank, and i do have areas with low currents for the fish to rest. It is way overkill, but it provides enjoyment. The breeders typically don't factor enjoyment in their cost model, but they do factor in the health of their fish.

This is what is so great about this hobby. We can all do things differently and for different reasons. If it is working for us, it is not wrong, just different. 

[Minanora]

ORD...

I was once worried about poos clogging my UGF a long time ago. I was a kid at the time. My dad thought it would be a great idea to use the air compressor to blow out ALL of the mulm. He took off the cartridge part of the uplift, pulled out the airline and cupped his hand around the uplift tube and created a seal with the air compressor nozzle blowing into his hand.

It was a huge mess but it suspended all of the mulm into the water column and scared the kuhli loaches half to death.

There was a pretty big bacterial bloom afterwards. So now as an adult I don't think I'd worry about clogging or cleaning under the plate. The tank was crystal clear before the experiment. It took several months for the tank to restabilize and the flow through the uplift tubes didn't appear to increase afterward.

I mean you could deep clean by making uber suction with a power head though.

[kcochran]

I've had mine set up for over two years and have never had to vacuum underneath the plates. That aquarium with the UGF has the clearest water of the 3 aquariums that I have. When I tear the others down and redo them, I'll go with UGF for those too. I've had nothing but trouble out of the hang on filters on the other tanks.

[AndreaW]

20 years running an UGF in my 46G and I've never needed to clean under the UGF (I did have to take everything out to re-silicone the tank a while back, but there really wasn't that much mulm under there anyway). Just the occasional gravel vacuuming a small section here and there is all I've ever done. I have a glass-bottom tank on a stand where you can see under the UGF and some gravel and mulm works it's way down there, but nowhere near enough to impede water flow.

Honestly, the small amount of fine mulm you do collect under there is the really good stuff the BB love.

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:05 AM, Guppysnail said:

I want to cut out the slats that are under the uplift tube circle.  Reason being if it ever backs up I can run a siphon tube down the uplift tube to remove excess if needed vs gutting the tank. Any reason not to?

Thanks.  

 

 

Most UG grids don't have slats under the lift tube it's open to underneath. This one is odd. But no worries. 

Like @AndreaWsays, it won't back up or plug up under there, it would take many many years for that to happen if it did. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Wrencher_Scott

[Guppysnail]

@Wrencher_ScottWithout that grid piece the uplift tube falls to the floor. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:51 AM, Guppysnail said:

Without that grid piece the uplift tube falls to the floor. 

Gotcha, I jut edited my post. It looks like the tube is supposed to twist lock in right? 

[Guppysnail]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:52 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

Gotcha, I jut edited my post. It looks like the tube is supposed to twist lock in right? 

Yes

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:53 AM, Guppysnail said:

Yes

Like others here I have used UGs beginning about 40 years ago, they are great and they don't plug up. 

I TRUELY believe they are better than HOBs and have been a victim of companies that make HOBs and their silly replaceable filter crap.

There are flat out lies about them now, like they plug, they are just nitrate factories, bla bla bla..... and I'm sure this was started by HOB filter companies. UGs once bought require no maintenance and more importantly require no spending of money after the sale. I just shake my head when I walk past all those filter items at the pet store. 

Run an UG with a small cheap power head or two and it's an even better filter. Just gravel vac once a month or so when you water change, that's it! 

Just FYI, I run one in my 90 gal tall (air uplift for aeration) along with a large canister filled with coarse foam that doesn't need to be replaced.   

[AndreaW]

Everyone's will look different depending on what they are using to power their UGF, their substrate size/type, substrate depth, and how much mulm they get in their tank, but here is a photo from the underside of mine. When I gravel vacuum an area, I do get some mulm that gets syphoned up through the grate, but since I only do a small section at a time, that's good. I wouldn't mind a little more mulm down there for the plants.

For more background: I've had this in place since I re-siliconed the tank, maybe 10 years ago? I did move the tank a few months ago, but I did my best not to disturb the substrate/UGF as much as possible. You can see the roots seem to love the mulm! These are the plants I added less than a month ago on 3/16.

This is a 36"x12" UGF plate, ran with two powerheads on either corner. I do get quite a bit of flow through the plate, so an UGF with less flow (bubblers) might accumulate more mulm than this. I don't do much gravel vacuuming in this tank because it really doesn't need much. I mostly do the front area where the bow is that doesn't have the UGF plate under it.

 

ETA: I do also run a HOB filter with this setup, but I don't replace the cartridges, just rinse out and put back in. I only have to do it about once a month, and even then, there's not much mulm on the pad -- and I leave the filter running when I feed the fish, so I know some of their food gets sucked up into the HOB filter.

Edited April 12, 2022 by AndreaW

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:13 AM, AndreaW said:

Everyone's will look different depending on what they are using to power their UGF, their substrate size/type, substrate depth, and how much mulm they get in their tank, but here is a photo from the underside of mine. When I gravel vacuum an area, I do get some mulm that gets syphoned up through the grate, but since I only do a small section at a time, that's good. I wouldn't mind a little more mulm down there for the plants.

For more background: I've had this in place since I re-siliconed the tank, maybe 10 years ago? I did move the tank a few months ago, but I did my best not to disturb the substrate/UGF as much as possible. You can see the roots seem to love the mulm! These are the plants I added less than a month ago on 3/16.

This is a 36"x12" UGF plate, ran with two powerheads on either corner. I do get quite a bit of flow through the plate, so an UGF with less flow (bubblers) might accumulate more mulm than this. I don't do much gravel vacuuming in this tank because it really doesn't need much. I mostly do the front area where the bow is that doesn't have the UGF plate under it.

That looks pretty dirty for ten years.  lol

But seriously, yes, that brown gunk is loaded with good bacteria. With powerheads running it I bet you water is very clear and clean.

Thanks for the picture.

 

[AndreaW]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:25 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

With powerheads running it I bet you water is very clear and clean.

Yes, crystal clear water.... but scratched glass since the kids found my magnetic scraper and *helped* clean the glass a few times... 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:25 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

That looks pretty dirty for ten years.  lol

Wish it was dirtier!  Those fish need to step it up a bit!

[Guppysnail]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:09 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

large canister filled with coarse foam

That’s what I run on 6 of mine

On 4/12/2022 at 12:13 PM, AndreaW said:

two powerheads on either corner. I do get quite a bit of flow through the plate, so an UGF with less flow (bubblers) might accumulate more mulm than this.

I’m redoing 6 of my tanks adding a ugf some will have powerheads some like fry tanks will have just air and the Pygmy cory tank because they like their powerhead low to play in.