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Fish Meds Combo question


SunniSki
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Hi,

I have a few things going on in my tank... Water parameters are fine... Ammonia and Nitrites are 0, Nitrates 30.  I have a freshwater tanks and I believe I have been battling some internal parasites. 

Things I have noticed:

Fish Flashing and scratching themselves on object

White Stringy Poop / Pleco previous has clear to no poop but now its getting better

Some times Jerky/Bolting forward movements (I'm thinking this might be flukes or something, one one might know??)

Most recent.... 1 minnow has what it appear to be fungus (flat white growth/covering) on entire head, between eyes and on pectoral fins. 

What I have treated with ;

Paracleanse 3 rounds maybe 4 (cannot remember anymore since I started seeing symptoms last year in Nov)

Ich-x 3 weeks/Rounds   

Expel 2 rounds

With all this said... I ordered Maracyn to treat for the Fungal looking issue I'm seeing... I will treat with Ich-X and Maracyn : Per an aquarium co-op video I saw on Youtube, I'm going to treat my 75 gallons and let it "marinate" for a week.. on the 7th day I need to do another Expel round... has anyone treated with Expel-P with already have Ich-X and Maracyn in the water column?  I want to be able to treat Expel-p on my last day before I do my routine weekly water clean.

I swear I cannot win... I have purchased 5x the cost in Meds than what my fish cost so far.  I have never had something in the tank that I was not able to "beat."  I hope I didnt leave any details out but if I did... ask away. 

For some reason... 🙂 my fish would not pose for pictures so they are a bit blurry.

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I just caught 2 mollies trying to rub their gills area in the gravel... they each did it 3-4 times before they stopped.  So there is still something going on. 😒  This is so frustrating since its affecting all my fish its not like its just 1.

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Sorry to read about your battles. Issues in larger tanks are a pain in the tookus.

What are the other parameters of the tank? GH, KH, pH, temp?

I've seen fish flash due to pH changes. My fish always flash after large water changes.

If there's only one whitecloud with that fungus/bacterial issue, you could separate him out into a smaller quarantine with your intake sponge in his quarantine and do a full course of maracyn and add ich-x daily. Air in the quarantine of course. Room temp should be okay for the whitecloud. So long as you keep the room above 65. If you have an extra, small, heater you could put it in the quarantine too.

 

Edited by Minanora
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You can use ick x and Expel p together they don't have any negative interaction between the two medication am not sure about maracyn and Expel p if your still seeing flashing after after 4 course of paracleanse and two courses Expel p something else that your not testing for could be irritating their Gills do you use a dechlorinator like prime when doing water changes as chlorine can irritate  and burn Gill's also actived carbon dust can also so cause some fish to flash 

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On 3/14/2022 at 6:58 PM, Minanora said:

Sorry to read about your battles. Issues in larger tanks are a pain in the tookus.

What are the other parameters of the tank? GH, KH, pH, temp?

I've seen fish flash due to pH changes. My fish always flash after large water changes.

If there's only one whitecloud with that fungus/bacterial issue, you could separate him out into a smaller quarantine with your intake sponge in his quarantine and do a full course of maracyn and add ich-x daily. Air in the quarantine of course. Room temp should be okay for the whitecloud. So long as you keep the room above 65. If you have an extra, small, heater you could put it in the quarantine too.

 

Ok… I rechecked my water 10minutes ago… yesterday I did a 50% water change with Prime.  
I don’t know what Gh and Kh levels are in my city tap water.  
PH 6.8-7.0 / Ammonia .50ppm in water test; Badge alert is 0 / Nitrite 0 / Nitrate 5 ppm

Temp 78

Maracyn I ordered yesterday, I’m hoping I get it tomorrow.  Question though…. You mentioned to add in Ich-X daily…. As in every day treating 75 gallons like I would with a normal treatment but with NO water changes??? 

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On 3/14/2022 at 7:19 PM, Colu said:

You can use ick x and Expel p together they don't have any negative interaction between the two medication am not sure about maracyn and Expel p if your still seeing flashing after after 4 course of paracleanse and two courses Expel p something else that your not testing for could be irritating their Gills do you use a dechlorinator like prime when doing water changes as chlorine can irritate  and burn Gill's also actived carbon dust can also so cause some fish to flash 

I don’t use activated carbon in my filter.  I use Prime or Aquarium Solution to treat my water.  I may have to treat the fungal infection first since I feel that might kill my fish or even spread.  It’s like I have too many things going on …. I have shrimp and snails I have to be careful to not wipe out my entire gang.  I suspected gill flukes initially since the fish seems to scratch in that area.  I still see white poop so I suspect there is some parasites internally.

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On 3/15/2022 at 12:35 AM, SunniSki said:

I don’t use activated carbon in my filter.  I use Prime or Aquarium Solution to treat my water.  I may have to treat the fungal infection first since I feel that might kill my fish or even spread.  It’s like I have too many things going on …. I have shrimp and snails I have to be careful to not wipe out my entire gang.  I suspected gill flukes initially since the fish seems to scratch in that area.  I still see white poop so I suspect there is some parasites internally.

White poop can poop with no food in it just mucus lining it doesn't necessarily mean they have internal parasites ammonia can also cause flashing as it irritates the Gills

Edited by Colu
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On 3/14/2022 at 8:58 PM, Colu said:

White poop can poop with no food in it just mucus lining it doesn't necessarily mean they have internal parasites ammonia can also cause flashing as it irritates the Gills

Im going to test the water in the morning again. I think the ammonia is registered on the water test since I just did a water change yesterday with Prime.  I didn’t rinse any filter media or touch my sponge filter so my good bacteria is still there. It’s all the rubbing on rocks which I keep seeing which is really bugging me.

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On 3/14/2022 at 5:22 PM, SunniSki said:

Ok… I rechecked my water 10minutes ago… yesterday I did a 50% water change with Prime.  
I don’t know what Gh and Kh levels are in my city tap water.  
PH 6.8-7.0 / Ammonia .50ppm in water test; Badge alert is 0 / Nitrite 0 / Nitrate 5 ppm

Temp 78

Maracyn I ordered yesterday, I’m hoping I get it tomorrow.  Question though…. You mentioned to add in Ich-X daily…. As in every day treating 75 gallons like I would with a normal treatment but with NO water changes??? 

.5 ppm ammonia can cause flashing. I used to use prime religiously but stopped for fear of false readings on parameters. The science of conditioners actually detoxifying ammonia, nitrite and nitrates is complicated and an interesting topic of conversation.

Your pH is a little low for Mollies, if they're the main culprits for flashing that could be your issue. I would hold off on meds for the flashing if this is the case. Get your pH up to 7.4 and see if that helps. Knowing the GH and KH is useful to see what needs to happen to get your pH up. Crushed coral is a good one. Slow changes would be best.

What are you using to test your water parameters? The easy test strips have pH, KH, and GH. They're a good starting point. Your water provider should have an annual water quality report available online and that can help as well.

I would pull the white cloud with infection out and treat them in a smaller quarantine tank.

This was just what I recently did. You don't have to do the same thing I did. I have lost enough fish by not hitting fungus hard enough first pass. I just had an outbreak of a fungal/bacterial infection in a small population of my girls in a 20G high. I dosed maracyn and ich x every day without changing water. I would do the same on my 75 if there was a large outbreak. Single, or a few fish, move them to a 10 or 20 to treat. Less expensive. I may have been able to get away with ich x every other day but I did a half dose on one day and the infection worsened. So I hit it hard. Everyone is happy and healthy now.

 

And a quarantine can be something as simple as a Rubbermaid tote with a seeded sponge and an air stone. I recently made a hospital tank out of a stock pot. 🤣

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On 3/15/2022 at 12:25 AM, Minanora said:

.5 ppm ammonia can cause flashing. I used to use prime religiously but stopped for fear of false readings on parameters. The science of conditioners actually detoxifying ammonia, nitrite and nitrates is complicated and an interesting topic of conversation.

Your pH is a little low for Mollies, if they're the main culprits for flashing that could be your issue. I would hold off on meds for the flashing if this is the case. Get your pH up to 7.4 and see if that helps. Knowing the GH and KH is useful to see what needs to happen to get your pH up. Crushed coral is a good one. Slow changes would be best.

What are you using to test your water parameters? The easy test strips have pH, KH, and GH. They're a good starting point. Your water provider should have an annual water quality report available online and that can help as well.

I would pull the white cloud with infection out and treat them in a smaller quarantine tank.

This was just what I recently did. You don't have to do the same thing I did. I have lost enough fish by not hitting fungus hard enough first pass. I just had an outbreak of a fungal/bacterial infection in a small population of my girls in a 20G high. I dosed maracyn and ich x every day without changing water. I would do the same on my 75 if there was a large outbreak. Single, or a few fish, move them to a 10 or 20 to treat. Less expensive. I may have been able to get away with ich x every other day but I did a half dose on one day and the infection worsened. So I hit it hard. Everyone is happy and healthy now.

 

And a quarantine can be something as simple as a Rubbermaid tote with a seeded sponge and an air stone. I recently made a hospital tank out of a stock pot. 🤣

I found the below but dont see the hardness. GH / KH listed.  These are the 2021 (its says 2020 on the image, not sure why) reports for our area,  I didnt see any newer ones posted on our water company website. 

The ammonia badge this morning is a light green now, 0.50 Ammonia ppm.  Ugh!!  For my water test kits I use the API Freshwater master test kit. I have bladder snails taking over my canister filter and I feel like that plays a spike in the Ammonia as well.  I don't know how to completely get out all the bladder snails without completely killing all my good bacteria.  This is probably a good post to start on a separate thread... I might just do that. 

WATER QUALITY.PNG

Edited by SunniSki
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It is possible that your water is actually treated with chloramine. I know your report says chlorine... But I found this tidbit.

image.png.967e097bed1255fa9ca757ddeeb31ac6.png

So you would probably see Ammonia on your tests! Test your tap water for ammonia readings. Then test straight tap water 1 hour after adding prime to it. For science!

Prime bonded with ammonia supposedly makes it ammonium, which still shows up on most types of tests that are available for the hobby.  Sera's test may not... I can't remember for sure though. The chemical that reacts with the ammonia also reacts to ammonium.

Moving on, your hardness!

image.png.d3f3d7724da791079d3c0a889f0701bf.png

So that doesn't break things down to KH and GH, but it looks like your total hardness is likely around 102ppm. Which is low for livebearers.

API's test kit for GH/KH works good, I have the kit. But a test strip works fine unless you're deep diving parameters.

I'm fascinated with water chemistry.

Edited by Minanora
Water geek
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On 3/15/2022 at 6:17 PM, Minanora said:

Good news is, you can likely stop worrying about the flashing! Assuming it's the livebearers that are doing it.

I mean, not worrying but you could definitely make them happier by raising hardness and pH a bit.

I actually ordered some test strips today. 😊  I did previously have Cory’s and the white clouds flashing which I know are egg layers.  I’m going to just “watch” them for now and I should get the test strips tomorrow.  Today I added in some more of those calcium rocks that are supposed to help Shrimp and Snails.  
 

Now that I mentioned my snail, I noticed it has some holes that have started and the tip of its shell either dissolved away or chipped away, not completely but now the end is transparent . Scares me since I feel it may crack open at any time.  I would assume this is due to lack of minerals.

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On 3/15/2022 at 8:59 PM, Minanora said:

That sounds like a mineral deficiency. What kind of snail?

I'm glad we were able to dive a bit deeper on your parameters. Treating a 75 is exhausting! Hopefully this gives you a little break. 💚

I have a Mystery Snail and 2 assassin snails.  The shell that has issues is on the mystery snail.

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On 3/14/2022 at 6:58 PM, Minanora said:

Sorry to read about your battles. Issues in larger tanks are a pain in the tookus.

What are the other parameters of the tank? GH, KH, pH, temp?

I've seen fish flash due to pH changes. My fish always flash after large water changes.

If there's only one whitecloud with that fungus/bacterial issue, you could separate him out into a smaller quarantine with your intake sponge in his quarantine and do a full course of maracyn and add ich-x daily. Air in the quarantine of course. Room temp should be okay for the whitecloud. So long as you keep the room above 65. If you have an extra, small, heater you could put it in the quarantine too.

 

Ok got my test strips!!!!

GH 120 / KH 40 / PH 7.0 / NO2 & NO3 both 0

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I wanted to add in pictures of my snail... I just happen to catch him doing is job.  I didn't even notice that "pocket" opening on the bottom of his shell until today... I literally just caught him in the best spot for pictures.  Too bad the fish don't do this.

I feel he is in bad shape, I touched the end of his shell and it does not seem he is "exposed" but I'm sure that shell is super thin there.

2.PNG.6221f276daee0234197b74d44eb4d1b1.PNG1.jpg.c5dad9546436be600121aa40f8ff8151.jpg

3.jpg

Edited by SunniSki
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It actually odd that the test strips showed 0- to maybe super pale pink.  When I did the API drops for Nitrates it was Sunday , it’s was super low like 5ppm.  I have been doing a ton of water changes since I believe I was dealing with parasites then ick after introducing some new fish. So I know for sure I'm not dealing with cycling issues.  I have an established canister filter that is being overrun by bladder snails at the moment and I have an established sponge filter in my tank.  My ammonia is 0, Nitires are 0, and my Nitrates still remain at 5ppm with the API master test kit.

I have been looking into KH and GH a little while ago and it definitely looks lows.

On 3/16/2022 at 7:40 PM, quikv6 said:

Looks like 2 potential issues:

1) Cycling issue: 0 Nitrates. Presence of ammonia.

2) KH (and GH) are a tad low for livebearers, which was discussed above.

 

 

 

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If I remember correctly, 10ppm was the lowest to visually see on the API nitrate test. 5ppm would be very difficult to see. Did you shake the bottle vigorously?

After reading the above, you recently showed ammonia, and are not showing Nitrates (or barely). I still believe it is a cycling issue.

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On 3/17/2022 at 5:48 AM, quikv6 said:

If I remember correctly, 10ppm was the lowest to visually see on the API nitrate test. 5ppm would be very difficult to see. Did you shake the bottle vigorously?

After reading the above, you recently showed ammonia, and are not showing Nitrates (or barely). I still believe it is a cycling issue.

Now I wonder if I made a typo…. I thought it was 5ppm but now that you say that… I think it should have been 10ppm  😩.  I’m testing my water again this morning and will insert a pic of the tube colors if I do not forget to take the picture.

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