Celestial Pearl Danio illness....

[Carver]

Hi, everyone. I have noticed my Celestial Pearl Danios have clamped fins and look sluggish and don't seem to eat well the past couple of days (and I've lost two today). I've done water changes, but my water is testing okay (other than high pH of 8.2 and it's super hard). Their shrimp, snail, and Endler's Livebearer tankmates don't seem to be suffering as much, if at all, from whatever ails the CPD. Any suggestions where to go from here? They have been in this tank since late January and seemed fine until recently. 

20L with sponge filters, room temp, and a few live plants (that also seem to be dying slowly). The java moss and duck weed are doing great. 

[Colu]

Your pH is on the high side for pear Danio like a pH of 6.5-7.5 when you say room temperature what is it if you have  large temperature swings in the tank that could be stressing leading  to illness

[Carver]

Thanks. What is the best way to lower the pH? And there haven't been temp swings...furnace has been steady at 68 degrees.  Water temp appears to be the same.

[Colu]

You can add catappa leaves or bogwood they help lower your ph or you can put peat moss in a media bag in your filter to help lower your pH 

[Carver]

Thanks. I figured the fish would be acclimated since they were locally raised. FWIW, the pH out of the tap is around 7.6, so something is making it rise like crazy.

 

[Colu]

What substrate are you using and have you put any rocks in your that could be altering your ph

[Carver]

Using black aquarium gravel in a bag from Petco and no new rocks. I have driftwood, dragon stone, and a couple pieces of rainbow rock. 

[Colu]

From what I have read dragon and rainbow stone are both  inert so won't effect your ph 

[Carver]

I'm not sure why it's rising. I'll get some leaves and hope it helps. 

[Schwack]

10 hours ago, Carver said:

Thanks. What is the best way to lower the pH? And there haven't been temp swings...furnace has been steady at 68 degrees.  Water temp appears to be the same.

I'm not sure I'd worry about chasing pH too much. I'm keeping, and breeding, CPDs in 8.0 to 8.2 pH water without issue. It is almost certainly worth your while to ID what is causing the pH swing once the water goes in the tank. How confident are you in the pH reading? Are you using a liquid test kit? Chasing pH is going to be a constant battle AND there's a risk to the rest of the tank not adapting well to the shift.

You might try pulling some water out of the tap and letting it sit for a few days. That'd give it a chance to off-gas and might shed some light on the pH swings.

Other Questions:

Have you measured your water temperature directly? What are you feeding the CPDs? Were they quarantined and treated for parasites and bacterial/fungal infections? Are they the most recent fish added to the tank?

[Carver]

Thanks...I thought they should be okay in that pH. Must be a different issue. I'm fairly confident in the pH readings. I will test again today to double check myself. I'm using the API liquid kit.  I have set aside a tap water sample for a pH test in a few days. 

My thermometer reads 68-69. I tested another thermometer and got the same reading. I'm feeding various things...Xtreme krill flakes, bug bites, hikari micro pellets that I grind up to almost dust, and other various dry foods in my fish pantry. 

The CPDs were not QT'ed...other than a few Cherry Shrimp and a Mystery snail, they were the first inhabitants of the tank.  I've had them since Jan 20. The latest additions were 3 Endler's on 1/29. I know I should've qt'ed everyone, but I did not. Lesson learned. 

Is it possible they need a little higher temp? Cory mentioned in a video they are good for heaterless tanks, and I thought that sounded great. Bah. 

[Schwack]

Based on the experiences of other people keeping them, I can't imagine it being a problem if they're hovering around 68F. Any chance you checked the two that died for parasites? It's not a particularly fun task, but I wish I had done it when I ran up against mystery deaths.

I don't see any obvious mistakes you've made. The only thing to consider is that they had some kind of infection/parasite when you purchased them and it's only after 2 months of progression that you're seeing the results. It may be worth your while to treat with Paracleanse/Maracyn/salt, but without more symptoms it's gonna be tough to nail down exactly what's going on. Any chance of a contaminant, like hand sanitizer, getting in the water?

[Lowells Fish Lab]

I suspect that they can go without a heater as long as room temp is reasonable. I've kept adults and fry at room temp but mine is maintained at 71. Being sluggish, having clamped fins and losing appetite sounds to me like internal parasites. Does it look like this picture? I lost many when I first started keeping them after they displayed those symptoms. I've only stopped it by using the med trio immediately after purchase, emphasis on the paracleanse.

[Carver]

42 minutes ago, Schwack said:

Any chance you checked the two that died for parasites? 

Any chance of a contaminant, like hand sanitizer, getting in the water?

Darn, no, didn't think of it. 

And, not that I know of. Wouldn't that bother everyone, though? 

[Carver]

43 minutes ago, Lowells Fish Lab said:

 Being sluggish, having clamped fins and losing appetite sounds to me like internal parasites. Does it look like this picture? I've only stopped it by using the med trio immediately after purchase, emphasis on the paracleanse.

Yes, that's it! I ordered some Paracleanse today, but it won't be here in time is my guess. Should I just put  them out of their misery now and dose the next crew?

[Schwack]

I don't think I'd euthanize any fish at this point, there's always a chance they could recover. You might be able to get some dewormer ASAP from a big box store. Paracleanse is a combo of metronidazole and praziquantel which is also in API General Cure, something you can typically get at big pet stores.

[Lowells Fish Lab]

That photo is of the last of a group of 6 I brought home late last year before I started proactive medication. He's still alive and eating but still appears to be in poor health. I haven't yet been able to truly bring one back from that point. I can only tell you what Ive done, and that is to do everything you can for the fish you have, and accept that they may or may not recover.

This little guy lives alone, I'll never reintroduce him to my healthy group.

[Lowells Fish Lab]

4 minutes ago, Schwack said:

 Paracleanse is a combo of metronidazole and praziquantel which is also in API General Cure, something you can typically get at big pet stores.

Excellent point. Petco and PetSmart carry it.

[Carver]

Are the General Cure and Paracleanse safe for my mystery snail and cherry shrimp? I think I should probably just treat everyone at this point...

[Schwack]

Based on a quick search, metro and prazi appear to be safe for inverts.

[Carver]

Thanks, I couldn't find anything either but wanted to double check my research. 🙂 Picking up some General Cure this evening. I *assume* it's okay to switch to the paracleanse when it arrives. 

[Schwack]

Just now, Carver said:

Thanks, I couldn't find anything either but wanted to double check my research. 🙂 Picking up some General Cure this evening. I *assume* it's okay to switch to the paracleanse when it arrives. 

It appears to be the same medications in the same amounts. I can't imagine you'd have any trouble interchanging the two. I'd just keep the paracleanse sealed up and go through the General Cure, but someone who knows more about fish meds might have a reason to switch.

Don't be surprised if you lose some fish after deworming. If indeed they are infected with parasites, some may pass from internal damage done by the parasites.

[Carver]

Looks like I have lost 3 CPDs since yesterday. Dosed the General Cure last night so hoping the last 5 or 6 make it along with the Endler's. I'm not holding my breath, though, because the CPDs don't look so great.

After we are through this treatment, how long should I wait to introduce new neo shrimp? (I am considering making the 20L a shrimp only tank and setting up a community 40B with heat.) 

I will test the tap water sample pH tomorrow after sitting 48 hours, then again at 72 hours.

[Schwack]

Thanks for the update, sorry to hear you lost a few more fish. I know from firsthand experience how frustrating it can be to have something wipe out huge swathes of your tank. 

Any chance you were able to check the dead fish for worms? I lost most of my school of rainbowfish to parasites and a quick squeeze is really all it takes to see the worms. CPD size might make the procedure a bit more difficult.

I think General Cure recommends a second dose 48 hours after the first. That might be worthwhile, but I imagine it would be more effective to dose 5-7 days after the first to ensure you eradicate any eggs which may have been unaffected by the first dose. This is just a gut feeling, however, and you may want to perform your own research.

I found this post on a salt water forum while typing this up. Might be useful for your case.

edit: I saw someone mention that prazi/metro will only hang around in the water column for 72 hours or so. I'd still probably run carbon for a few days once you've complete the treatment course. Wait 1-2 weeks and then begin the process of re-stocking.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Schwack

[Carver]

I haven't looked for worms...is there a video explaining the process? I'm not grossed out by that stuff so would do it.

The second dose was supposed to go in tonight, but I guess I won't given the info you posted. I'll do some reading after my morning appointment and see what I think. 

Thanks for all of your help and info, Schwack.