Undergravel filter conversion questions

[Pwnedn00b]

I'm interested in converting my 23 gallon Fluval Vista from an Aquaclear to an undergravel filter. The stocking will likely be peaceful hillstream species small loaches (rosy loaches, barbucca diabolica, maybe a couple gastromyzon or similar species), 1-2 stiphodon gobies, plus some white clouds or danios. As a result, I would like to add some larger rocks in my scape to promote grazing and other natural behaviors, and I've never seen a setup like this. Many of the products I've found online also look a bit flimsy. 

Has anyone done anything similar? Or do you have recommendations for some rigid and sturdy models? 

I'd also like to add some geotextile fabric on top of the filter to prevent any fry from finding their way in. Does anyone have suggestions for aquarium safe and small quantity fabrics? 

[Airborne 82nd]

I like Lee's premium series to me it is the best material out there. You get what you pay for.

https://www.leesaqpet.com/index.php/shop/aquatic/under-gravel-filters-ugf/premium-ugfs

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=lee's+undergravel+filter&adgrpid=1333708170351827&hvadid=83357083871355&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=91462&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83357109087689%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=16167_13560037&msclkid=312788132b191d0eaaa6eedc5b95d97d&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_20n1hflpno_e

[AAE]

@Pwnedn00b, I am using the Lees Premium Under Gravel Filter.  https://www.leesaqpet.com/index.php/shop/aquatic/under-gravel-filters-ugf/premium-ugfs

It is very sturdy.  I adapted it to work with the Aquarium Coop Uplift Tubes so I had less noise and better control of flow direction.  Not sure why you would need the fabric, in regard to fry - shouldn't be a way into the filter I can contemplate.

 

[Guppysnail]

I swapped 10 of my tanks to ugf.  I ended up pulling them because I continued finding baby pleco and corydora under the filter plate that could not get out. They went in through the outflow as young.  
If you go with hillstreams and loaches use caution to purchase them large enough they do not fit through the outflow grate. 
My hillstream fry go down inside the jetlifter tubes on my sponges all the time.  

[Pwnedn00b]

@Guppysnail That's really good to know. I think you're talking about the tubes that stick up out of the plate, and not the plate itself? I'm planning to hot glue gun some kind of geotextile fabric over in case I ever want fish that dig, I also have no idea how small loach fry are, or whether they could navigate through a few inches of fine gravel. I definitely want to keep them alive if I'm lucky enough to breed any of them. 

@AAE Since you have the Lee's Premium, could you tell me if it would be possible to jam a cube of coarse sponge pad in the area inside the uplift tube slots where a carbon cartridge appears to be in the photo below? I can't tell if it would be easy to modify. The slots do look pretty narrow, but I want to cover all my bases, and I definitely want to avoid the issue @Guppysnail described. 

 

[Dacotua]

I used to use undergravel filters years ago. Do they work well? Yes they do. Do they have a downside? YES.

If you ever have a problem with your undergravel filter, you have to rip the entire tank apart to get to it. Cleaning the undergravel filter is not a option unless you, again, rip the tank apart.  You will still see the tubes going into the filter, you can get fish underneath the filter somehow, and you can even crush the plastic trays by the pure weight of the substrate and any decorations you put on top of it (Like large rocks). Also some fish / snails, love to burrow into the substrate and that could cause you problems. Also live plants will also be an issue if you choose to put them in your tank. If you ever add root tabs, they can be more "exposed" and release into the water column a lot easier than in tanks without the undergravel filter.

I found I would rather just use a canister filter and be done with it. You'll still see the Tubes going into the tank, however you can clean this filter a lot easier. If I don't like the canister filter and I want to remove it, its easy.  I would rather have two sponge filters in my tanks these days than having a undergravel filter. Again, I can easily remove these if I want to switch to something else. The undergravel filter, to remove it, did I meantion you have to tear the tank apart?

JUST A FYI: Adding a coarse sponge to your outlet tubes will not stop fry from getting into those tubes. I have a coarse sponge on my intake tubes of my canister filters and everytime I clean my canister filters, I find fry & shrimp inside the canister filter. They can and will find a way in if they want.

Edited August 29 by Dacotua

[AAE]

@Pwnedn00b, I used the uplift tubes the Aquarium Coop Sponge Filters and did not use the uplift tubes that came with the Lee's undergravel filter.  However, I just looked at the Lee's uplift tube and what I will call the outflow cap.  You could certainly finesse some of the Aquarium Coop coarse filter media into the cap - I think the only challenge will be accommodating the airline hose that goes from the top of the cap and travels toward the bottom of the uplift tube.  I  wonder if the Aquarium Coop pre filter could be placed over the outlet of the uplift tube - perhaps that would keep fry from entering the tube.  On a side note, I have an all-in-one plexiglass tank and I have had medium sized neolamprologus brichardi and synodontist petricola get through the narrow intake grate - hard to believe they made it through!  I covered the grate with coarse filter media and have had no further fish incursions into the filter portion of the tank.  See the attached images (the "pre filter over the grate has a bunch of plant material stuck to it).  

Edited August 29 by AAE
wanted to add more

[AAE]

@Pwnedn00b   PS. I have just set up a 100 gallon tank with undergravel filters.  I have not used this type of filter for over 50 years so it is a grand experiment.  The tank is heavily planted.  As with all things in fish keeping, there are many, many variables that can lead one aquarist to have a very different experience than another.  Good luck with your tank!!

[Airborne 82nd]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:57 PM, AAE said:

@Pwnedn00b   PS. I have just set up a 100 gallon tank with undergravel filters.  I have not used this type of filter for over 50 years so it is a grand experiment.  The tank is heavily planted.  As with all things in fish keeping, there are many, many variables that can lead one aquarist to have a very different experience than another.  Good luck with your tank!!

Well said I find used nylons from my wife comes in handy when a sponge is not enough. Also good for filling up the mower to keep trash out of the tank

[Guppysnail]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:16 PM, Pwnedn00b said:

I think you're talking about the tubes that stick up out of the plate, and not the plate itself?

Yes but both if you do not use fine substrate and a mesh plate cover. I had many types of eggs fall through and hatch under plates. My interests are primarily breeding so this caused havoc. 
I can look up under my tanks they are on open stands. Shrimplettes galore lived under my filter plates from crawling between the gravel to get the yummies under the plate. 

[Pwnedn00b]

@AAE Thanks for the insight. I'll probably try to hack into it and block with some sponge pad, since it looks a bit cleaner that way. Good luck with your 100 Gallon experiment! P.S. Your brichardi tank is lovely. 

@Dacotua I had considered a small canister filter, since I like the seamless look and high water flow. I decided against it because I don't want to maintenance a canister on a fully carpeted floor (I have no other options) and risk a spill. I also live on an island in hurricane alley and lose power 4-5 times a year even without a major storm, re-priming and restarting the impellers on my aquaclears every time this happens is bad enough. I'm leaning towards UGs because all I would ever need to do for maintenance is gravel vac. I could also use the coop battery backup air pump and never concern myself with this tank next time the power goes out. I've heard mixed info about rooted plants with UGs, so I'll probably use plants with shallow root systems (Italian Val, Bacopa, Pogostemon), plus a bunch of epiphytes and mosses. As far as the outlet tubes: isn't water pushed out of these, VS sucked in? If the water is pushed out with a normal air-driven setup, I doubt eggs would be sucked in and hatch. 

@Guppysnail Good to know. My main goal with this tank is a display community, not breeding. But obviously I don't want fish getting caught and dying inside my UG. It seems like regardless of how well I block the plate and outlets, small shrimp should be avoided all together, which is fine. 

[AAE]

@Pwnedn00b, I had another thought for you, unrelated keeping fry out of the uplift tube.  If you have not seen this article, I thought it interesting: https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/8-5-1-under-gravels-in-depth/

I used 3 to 4 inches depth of gravel in my 100 gallon, so that I could plant the pots of crypts and swords in the substrate (after having placed plant tabs in the rock wool).   This is per a video of Cory's about planting plants in the pots (shown below, if you have not yet viewed this).  This appealed to me with a new undergravel filter since I used gravel and there are currently no nutrients in the substrate to support these plants (there will be a while after my currently quarantined fish get into the tank).  I included a picture of the 100 gallon - it has been set up for 2 weeks or so.

 

 

 

[Dacotua]

On 8/29/2024 at 2:08 PM, Pwnedn00b said:

@AAE Thanks for the insight. I'll probably try to hack into it and block with some sponge pad, since it looks a bit cleaner that way. Good luck with your 100 Gallon experiment! P.S. Your brichardi tank is lovely. 

@Dacotua I had considered a small canister filter, since I like the seamless look and high water flow. I decided against it because I don't want to maintenance a canister on a fully carpeted floor (I have no other options) and risk a spill. I also live on an island in hurricane alley and lose power 4-5 times a year even without a major storm, re-priming and restarting the impellers on my aquaclears every time this happens is bad enough. I'm leaning towards UGs because all I would ever need to do for maintenance is gravel vac. I could also use the coop battery backup air pump and never concern myself with this tank next time the power goes out. I've heard mixed info about rooted plants with UGs, so I'll probably use plants with shallow root systems (Italian Val, Bacopa, Pogostemon), plus a bunch of epiphytes and mosses. As far as the outlet tubes: isn't water pushed out of these, VS sucked in? If the water is pushed out with a normal air-driven setup, I doubt eggs would be sucked in and hatch. 

@Guppysnail Good to know. My main goal with this tank is a display community, not breeding. But obviously I don't want fish getting caught and dying inside my UG. It seems like regardless of how well I block the plate and outlets, small shrimp should be avoided all together, which is fine. 

You should never have a canister filter not prime itself. The motor is in the water. You can buy HOB filters with motors in the tank also, never have to worry about it not starting.

[Pepere]

You can use landscape fabric over the filter plates before substrate.

Have no fear about plants.  I have densely planted tanks on ugf plates… I have t experienced any issues.

 

[Pwnedn00b]

@AAE Thanks for sending that article my way, it's extremely detailed, but I think that's a good thing. I haven't been in the hobby that long, but I've found that lots of research and planning tend to prevent a lot of issues. 

The plants in pot + rock wool idea are a great idea. I also thought about putting aquasoil in a small ceramic pot and burying it in the gravel to give my stem plants a jump start while I wait for some mulm to accumulate. As sort of a side note: Pogostemon Stellatus Octopus is so undemanding I was able to shove stems through broken shells in my shelldweller tank (sand substrate), and it has thrived from the start on only easy green. Since I have Neolamprologus Meleagris, the plants don't get moved either. 

I really like the color and grain size of the gravel you used in your 100 gallon, would you be able to tell me the brand or send me a link? 

@Dacotua That makes sense, it does seem like it can be an issue in very long power outages though. And they certainly won't run for 12-16 hours continuously through a power outage (nor would any HOB). I've also heard horror stories about entire tanks emptying out via a broken canister filter. A sponge filter would, but I have one in my 7 gal shrimp tank and don't like looking at it, and cleaning it, and really dislike the amount of real estate it takes up. 

@Pepere Your plants look spectacular. Is there any concern about the safety of these fabrics in an aquarium? Do you know if there's a way to tell if they've been treated with anything that might harm fish? 

[AAE]

@Pwnedn00b, I bought my gravel at a building supply business.  Buying at the fish store, it was going to cost over 300 dollars for my tank.  I got my gravel for less than 70 dollars at the building supply place - it came in 75 pound bags.  But I had to clean it - pretty dirty.  I washed the gravel in a metal colander with very small holes (bought it from Amazon for this purpose) suspended within a 5 gallon bucket.  The colander handles held the strainer at the top of the bucket.  I used gravel size recommended in the article I sent you.  I have not had success with pogostemon stellatus octopus in my neolamprologus birchardi tank - perhaps it is the substrate, or our water or ....?  I have used Easy Green, plant tabs, etc.  I have been sad about this as I would have loved for the plant to take off.  I have some on order for the 100 gallon - perhaps the gravel substrate and/or CO2 or something else unknown to me will allow it to thrive.  

[Pepere]

On 8/29/2024 at 10:32 PM, Pwnedn00b said:

Is there any concern about the safety of these fabrics in an aquarium? Do you know if there's a way to tell if they've been treated with anything that might harm fish? 

I believe it is just spun polypropylene fiber.  I have used it with no noticeable ill effect.

[HelplessNewbie]

I think it is good you are researching ahead of time. I like the experimental part of this hobby, but I find it is always good to check with others with more experience, like you are doing. We have a 5 month old 65 gallon display tank thar has ugf on 2/3 of it. We set it up based on excellent advice here. See my signature.

We are adding more plants as we go along, and see which ones take off. We have a lot of easy plants in it now. The under gravel portion has planted in the substrate: crypt spiralis, crypt (wendtii?), pogostemon octopus and water sprite. These are also planted in it but are just starting or struggling (probably since we are still balancing light, ferts without co2, or they simply don't like my water): ludwigia red dirt, lobelia cardinalis, anacharis and hygrophilia.

The rest of the plants are either above the substrate or in or bordering the non-ugf (right) side. The val spiralis put runners into the ugf side and seem to be doing better there, compared to its non-ugf counterparts. We are planning on planting some swords and more crypts in the ugf side.

I read on this forum somewhere that it is possible to "clear out" the underside of the ugf if needed, by wet-dry vacuum attached to the uplift tubes. We hope we won't need to, though, one cannot see under my tank to check.

We have 2 uplifts with air and one with small water pump/powerhead. I wonder if covering the air-based uplifts with a prefilter sponge would affect the uplift of water, and therefore, cause the ugf to fail? We have not observed our cory getting in there, but it is is possible our smaller amano shrimp are now making their home under the plates because I haven't seen them. The rest of the fish don't seem interested or won't fit through the opening.

We keep one sponge filter in the tank for extra aeration, and quick backup for a qt.

[Pepere]

On 8/30/2024 at 8:10 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

We have not observed our cory getting in there, but it is is possible our smaller amano shrimp are now making their home under the plates because I haven't seen them. The rest of the fish don't seem interested or won't fit through the opening.

I sure know that Amano shrimp like to spend time inside the old Aquarium Coop heater housing….

[Pwnedn00b]

@AAE Hopefully you have better luck with the Pogostemon this time. It's really strange that it did poorly for you, I've found it basically un-killable (in vastly different water parameters). The coolest thing about it is that the leaf shape and color will change depending on the light available. The leaves will get shorter and broader if put in a very low-light area (ex: under a tall anubias in a corner), it will also grow more compact. If shaded out almost completely (under a thick mat of algae), it becomes tiny and purple. 

On 8/30/2024 at 8:10 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

I read on this forum somewhere that it is possible to "clear out" the underside of the ugf if needed, by wet-dry vacuum attached to the uplift tubes. We hope we won't need to, though, one cannot see under my tank to check.

We have 2 uplifts with air and one with small water pump/powerhead. I wonder if covering the air-based uplifts with a prefilter sponge would affect the uplift of water, and therefore, cause the ugf to fail? We have not observed our cory getting in there, but it is is possible our smaller amano shrimp are now making their home under the plates because I haven't seen them. The rest of the fish don't seem interested or won't fit through the opening.

@HelplessNewbie That's a very impressive collection of plants, and they look to be doing well. I read that plants thrive in UGFs because oxygen is continuously being pulled over their roots, and they love it. Side note: If you dislike the 'leggy' look that pogostemon gets, check out my comment to another poster above.

When it comes to cleaning, one major selling point of a UGF to me is that it shouldn't require maintenance if set up correctly.  If I ever have to do that, I'll restart the whole thing. I also won't be able to see underneath to check. 

My experience with the really coarse sponge pads that the coop sells is that the pores are so large they never accumulate debris and don't impact flow at all. I've had a piece in the front of a HOB for a year and a half never cleaning it, the flow is still very strong. Additionally, the Lees UGF linked further above has a hunk of carbon in front, which I bet is a lot denser than a sponge pad.

 

[HelplessNewbie]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:27 PM, Pwnedn00b said:

When it comes to cleaning, one major selling point of a UGF to me is that it shouldn't require maintenance if set up correctly.

Yes, that and the fact that it is tolerant of short power outages like you mentioned. Btw, we just used cheap grates from amazon, with a thick, large-pore foam on top in the back, to build up a slight hill before putting the Safe-T-Sorb (sts) directly on the grates (no yard fabric). I have no way to confirm it isn't all under the grates now, but the sts clumps up really well above the grates, and holds plants in well, if buried adequately deep. When my hubby refills the tank, he sometimes places it in the uplift, so hopefully, anything that needs to be pushed back under the grates is pushed back. I really wish we could see under... is this an excuse to get a probe camera? 😉

On 8/30/2024 at 10:27 PM, Pwnedn00b said:

@HelplessNewbie That's a very impressive collection of plants, and they look to be doing well. I read that plants thrive in UGFs because oxygen is continuously being pulled over their roots, and they love it. Side note: If you dislike the 'leggy' look that pogostemon gets, check out my comment to another poster above.

Thank you! We are really liking this tank. I know it makes it unruly, but am counting on the leggy look of the pogostemon to further disguise the uplifts. I was hoping the water sprite would take in the center, but their growth is slow, if not melting (not enough co2, light and ferts, but I won't do co2 in this tank), so we will probably plant some swords in the middle, on the ugf side. I think my lighting isn't bright enough for some of the plants in the center, but we decided we will have to settle for all low light plants in this tank, eventually.

Edited August 31 by HelplessNewbie

[Pwnedn00b]

On 8/31/2024 at 9:58 AM, HelplessNewbie said:

Btw, we just used cheap grates from amazon, with a thick, large-pore foam on top in the back, to build up a slight hill before putting the Safe-T-Sorb (sts) directly on the grates (no yard fabric). I have no way to confirm it isn't all under the grates now, but the sts clumps up really well above the grates, and holds plants in well, if buried adequately deep. When my hubby refills the tank, he sometimes places it in the uplift, so hopefully, anything that needs to be pushed back under the grates is pushed back. I really wish we could see under... is this an excuse to get a probe camera? 😉

Thank you! We are really liking this tank. I know it makes it unruly, but am counting on the leggy look of the pogostemon to further disguise the uplifts. I was hoping the water sprite would take in the center, but their growth is slow, if not melting (not enough co2, light and ferts, but I won't do co2 in this tank), so we will probably plant some swords in the middle, on the ugf side. I think my lighting isn't bright enough for some of the plants in the center, but we decided we will have to settle for all low light plants in this tank, eventually.

I may copy your approach and only have the UG cover 2/3 of the aquarium, using the other 1/3 for the heaviest rocks in my scape. I currently have 2 kids 3 and under, so no time for failures or re-do's in my hobby. I do wonder if I could use egg crate over the UG to spread the weight out a little more, or if it doesn't really matter because the gravel will distribute the weight of most rocks, because they won't be 30+lbs. I had a (failed) hillstream tank rock scape from a few years ago that I'll probably try to replicate. 

. 

In terms of substrate, I'm just going to keep it simple stick with 3-4 inches of gravel. I'll use undemanding root feeders in the beginning, and then consider adding more as the mulm accumulates. I've noticed anyway when looking at many hillstream style tanks that the plants play more of a supporting role, with the hardscape being the star of the show.

No matter what I do, where I plant, or what plants I use, I never seem to be able to hide my filtration. Maybe this time 🤞. Have you considered cabomba or parrots feather? They're both a bit 'fluffier'. 

[HelplessNewbie]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:14 PM, Pwnedn00b said:

Have you considered cabomba or parrots feather? They're both a bit 'fluffier'. 

Cabomba died in our first tank, might try it again. Parrot's feather looks interesting! Will definitely try it out. Thanks!

Good luck with your setup!