Taxonomic status of guppies and Endlers

[AtomicSunfish]

Both wildtype and fancy guppies are in the species Poecilia reticulata. Some people consider Endlers to be a subspecies of guppy (P. reticulata wingei), while others consider them to be a closely related but separate species (P. wingei). The two can freely interbreed. Do you consider the two just different kinds of guppies, or do you consider them separate species, and why? Discuss 😎 

[Galabar]

I have bred the two together and have gotten some interesting results.  However, I'm not a "fish scientist."  So, I won't give an opinion on whether they are the same species... 🙂

 

[GoofyGarra]

a fun topic. This is what i understand:

There are 2 species, P. reticulata and P. wingei or guppies and endlers. However they do readily interbreed and this makes some cool color varieties, so most Guppies and Endlers available on the market these days are mutts (P. sp)

owever, if you can find what is known as N-class endlers (im sure there is another name for them), they are true P. wingei and have not been crossbred with guppies.

 

[macdaddy36]

I think that endlers get their own name for conservation reasons, since they are under threat in the wild. 

[AtomicSunfish]

I think this topic is important because the genetics of our pets really matters. On the one hand, inbreeding depression weakens animals. On the other hand, forced hybridization with other species is unhealthy, too. So, when I breed (or buy) pets, I want them to have a healthy level of outcrossing for genetic diversity, so they’re neither not line bred nor deformed.

Which brings me to guppies. Although fancy guppies are pretty, most of us here know that by now, most lineages are inbred and sickly (sad for a fish that used to be so hardy). That’s why I like to cross them with wildtype guppies (ie - humble feeder fish!) to increase their genetic diversity. When I discovered Endlers a couple years ago - and read they were a subspecies of guppy - I thought, Great! Let’s cross em! So I did. Most of my guppies now descend from female fancies and male Endlers. And guess what? They are not only beautiful, but they are also super healthy and hardy! Chalk one up for “hybrid vigor.”

I defend this practice on the grounds that these fish are not intetspecific hybrids, but merely outcrossed. It’s not like blood parrot cichlids, polar blue parrot cichlids, or other interspecific hybrids that are sterile or have birth defects. No, these fancy x Endler guppies are healthy fish.

Edited April 18 by AtomicSunfish

[lefty o]

my guess is they were originally the exact same species, but due to separation, and time they slowly changed to meet their environment and became still the same but visibly distinctive. its kind of like comparing white tailed deer in florida to the ones in MN, the fla ones run around 100# or less, and the ones in MN can go well over 200, yet are the same animal. just my theory, and with that i have no problem crossing guppy's, and endlers.

[macdaddy36]

On 4/18/2024 at 4:57 PM, AtomicSunfish said:

I think this topic is important because the genetics of our pets really matters. On the one hand, inbreeding depression weakens animals. On the other hand, forced hybridization with other species is unhealthy, too. So, when I breed (or buy) pets, I want them to have a healthy level of outcrossing for genetic diversity, so they’re neither not line bred nor deformed.

Which brings me to guppies. Although fancy guppies are pretty, most of us here know that by now, most lineages are inbred and sickly (sad for a fish that used to be so hardy). That’s why I like to cross them with wildtype guppies (ie - humble feeder fish!) to increase their genetic diversity. When I discovered Endlers a couple years ago - and read they were a subspecies of guppy - I thought, Great! Let’s cross em! So I did. Most of my guppies now descend from female fancies and male Endlers. And guess what? They are not only beautiful, but they are also super healthy and hardy! Chalk one up for “hybrid vigor.”

I defend this practice on the grounds that these fish are not intetspecific hybrids, but merely outcrossed. It’s not like blood parrot cichlids, polar blue parrot cichlids, or other interspecific hybrids that are sterile or have birth defects. No, these fancy x Endler guppies are healthy fish.

Most endlers in the hobby aren't "pure" endlers, and yours likely weren't either unless you purchased "n class" endlers, which are generally more expensive and difficult to find. Because of this I don't see why further crossing them would be an issue.

I do think it is important to preserve the original "natural" variants/type locations of endlers since they are threatened by pollution and hybridization in the wild.

[AtomicSunfish]

On 4/18/2024 at 4:19 PM, lefty o said:

my guess is they were originally the exact same species, but due to separation, and time they slowly changed to meet their environment and became still the same but visibly distinctive. its kind of like comparing white tailed deer in florida to the ones in MN, the fla ones run around 100# or less, and the ones in MN can go well over 200, yet are the same animal. just my theory, and with that i have no problem crossing guppy's, and endlers.

Yep, still quite closely related. Not enough time has passed for them to speciate.

They do have some differences in color, with regular guppies having more red and blue, and Endlers having more yellow. There’s also an interesting behavioral difference: when displaying for females, male guppies wiggle forwards and to the side, while male Endlers wiggle forwards and backwards. I think my Endler guppy crosses can do all of the above!

But again, these are small differences. I don’t think they rise to the species level. Unless you plan on conserving a line for release back into their native habitat (coastal Venezuela), I see nothing wrong crossing them, and it even adds valuable fresh blood to a dwindling gene pool.

On 4/18/2024 at 4:48 PM, macdaddy36 said:

Most endlers in the hobby aren't "pure" endlers, and yours likely weren't either unless you purchased "n class" endlers, which are generally more expensive and difficult to find. Because of this I don't see why further crossing them would be an issue.

I do think it is important to preserve the original "natural" variants/type locations of endlers since they are threatened by pollution and hybridization in the wild.

Yep, perpetuating conservation lineages is a good thing. But I see nothing wrong with outcrossing them to prevent inbreeding for aquarium populations, either.

[AtomicSunfish]

Oh and btw I think the shape of the male gonopodium is slightly different between guppies and Endlers, too. Doesn’t keep either one from mating with females of the other, though.