Metrocleanse/Paracleanse Shrimp/Invert Safety

[AnxiousAndFishious]

Please for the love of fish, someone explain to me why metrocleanse (200mg metronidazole) says it’s only invert safe if used in food but paracleanse (250mg metronidazole + 75mg praziquentel) is safe when broadcast for fish, shrimp and snails.

This is baffling me. I’m scared to use it in my male endler/shrimp display tank for the shrimp safety. They’re expensive and berried and I’m not looking to lose them. 

[Guppysnail]

Maybe @Colu would know. 

[Colu]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:48 AM, AnxiousAndFishious said:

Please for the love of fish, someone explain to me why metrocleanse (200mg metronidazole) says it’s only invert safe if used in food but paracleanse (250mg metronidazole + 75mg praziquentel) is safe when broadcast for fish, shrimp and snails.

This is baffling me. I’m scared to use it in my male endler/shrimp display tank for the shrimp safety. They’re expensive and berried and I’m not looking to lose them. 

I have looked at the active ingredient in metrocleanse it only contains metronidazole  200mg no other active ingredients so it shouldn't be harmful to your shrimp metronidazole in food is very effective when treating hole in the head disease and  gut infection I usually recommend using it in food if your fish is still eating what disease were you going to treat your fish for with metronidazole 

Edited March 25 by Colu

[AnxiousAndFishious]

I’m having “mysterious” endler deaths. All male group of 7 were added to an established (1 year old) planted shrimp tank (0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10 nitrates)  

The first death was an older male, so I wasn’t overly surprised. He wasn’t that active from when I got him and seemed to breathe a little heavy but was otherwise fine and eating. I figured he was just older.

The next death was a week/week and a half (I’d have to check dates) later. He started behaving like the other had before death, separated from the group, resting in the floating plants near the top and within a day or two, he died.

i noticed a third separate from the group and look pale, so this time I removed him to QT, treated with FixIck for its protozoan effects, and fed kanaplex while I waited for paracleanse to arrive. 
 

I was worried to dose the entire tank with the shrimp in it, because I don’t understand how metronidozole is only safe in food for Metroplex but can be broadcast in Paracleanse and is apparently shrimp safe according to Aquarium Co-op.

i ended up giving in and trusting Aquarium Co-Op and dosing the display tank for all the fish. The third sick one still died. Remaining 4 seem active and healthy as ever.

 

Second dose of Paracleanse on Day 3 (following Fritz instructions) and I’ve had 2 caridina deaths, so water changed 20% this morning 

[Colu]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:55 PM, AnxiousAndFishious said:

I’m having “mysterious” endler deaths. All male group of 7 were added to an established (1 year old) planted shrimp tank (0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10 nitrates)  

The first death was an older male, so I wasn’t overly surprised. He wasn’t that active from when I got him and seemed to breathe a little heavy but was otherwise fine and eating. I figured he was just older.

The next death was a week/week and a half (I’d have to check dates) later. He started behaving like the other had before death, separated from the group, resting in the floating plants near the top and within a day or two, he died.

i noticed a third separate from the group and look pale, so this time I removed him to QT, treated with FixIck for its protozoan effects, and fed kanaplex while I waited for paracleanse to arrive. 
 

I was worried to dose the entire tank with the shrimp in it, because I don’t understand how metronidozole is only safe in food for Metroplex but can be broadcast in Paracleanse and is apparently shrimp safe according to Aquarium Co-op.

i ended up giving in and trusting Aquarium Co-Op and dosing the display tank for all the fish. The third sick one still died. Remaining 4 seem active and healthy as ever.

 

Second dose of Paracleanse on Day 3 (following Fritz instructions) and I’ve had 2 caridina deaths, so water changed 20% this morning 

Any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly white stringy poop any Reddening to the body or over production of the slime coat 

[AnxiousAndFishious]

On 3/27/2024 at 8:35 PM, Colu said:

Any rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy flashing spitting food out sunken belly white stringy poop any Reddening to the body or over production of the slime coat 

Yes, first guy to die came to me with rapid breathing and wasn’t super active, and towards the end only hung out near the top  (I got him from my sister who keeps them in a 30g community tank—she says she hasn’t had any deaths but I wonder if there’s so many fish she just hasn’t noticed any missing)

All of them towards the end stay at the top of the tank in the plants, very lethargic. They spit out the medicated food, even the healthy ones avoid it, that’s why I wanted to broadcast the med. Before death there was food refusal and the third (most recent) to die, I did see a single stringy white poop, right before I medicated the tank with paracleanse. I wasn’t sure if that was from a lack of eating or parasite/worm, but at that point already guessed it was a parasite/worm problem.

No flashing, no sunken belly. I attached pictures of the last to die.

this was him Saturday when I added him back to the main tank figuring I would treat the whole tank (in case the others had it or if the parasite/worms survive in the tank without a host) at this point he’d had several days of aquarium salt and FixIck (gentian violet) with minimal noticeable improvement (he wasn’t always at the top of the tank, but he hid near the bottom of the quarantine more than he swam or was active)

Later that night, poop string and hovering near the top which is what he spent most of the day doing. (Pictured above) 

at this point I dosed with Paracleanse 

by Tuesday morning he was on the bottom of the substrate and died later that day. I did a 50% water change and added a dose of Paracleanse (their instructions are another dose on day 3) by this morning, two of my caridinas were dead.

 

4 remaining endlers are all active, eating (though they avoid medicated food) and seem great, but one is a major bully.

[Colu]

On 3/28/2024 at 1:12 AM, AnxiousAndFishious said:

Yes, first guy to die came to me with rapid breathing and wasn’t super active, and towards the end only hung out near the top  (I got him from my sister who keeps them in a 30g community tank—she says she hasn’t had any deaths but I wonder if there’s so many fish she just hasn’t noticed any missing)

All of them towards the end stay at the top of the tank in the plants, very lethargic. They spit out the medicated food, even the healthy ones avoid it, that’s why I wanted to broadcast the med. Before death there was food refusal and the third (most recent) to die, I did see a single stringy white poop, right before I medicated the tank with paracleanse. I wasn’t sure if that was from a lack of eating or parasite/worm, but at that point already guessed it was a parasite/worm problem.

No flashing, no sunken belly. I attached pictures of the last to die.

this was him Saturday when I added him back to the main tank figuring I would treat the whole tank (in case the others had it or if the parasite/worms survive in the tank without a host) at this point he’d had several days of aquarium salt and FixIck (gentian violet) with minimal noticeable improvement (he wasn’t always at the top of the tank, but he hid near the bottom of the quarantine more than he swam or was active)

Later that night, poop string and hovering near the top which is what he spent most of the day doing. (Pictured above) 

at this point I dosed with Paracleanse 

by Tuesday morning he was on the bottom of the substrate and died later that day. I did a 50% water change and added a dose of Paracleanse (their instructions are another dose on day 3) by this morning, two of my caridinas were dead.

 

4 remaining endlers are all active, eating (though they avoid medicated food) and seem great, but one is a major bully.

What your water parameters ammonia nitrite nitrate pH KH GH temperature 

[AnxiousAndFishious]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:53 PM, Colu said:

What your water parameters ammonia nitrite nitrate pH KH GH temperature 

Ammonia: 0

nitrite: 0

nitrate: 10ppm

ph: 7.5

Haven’t checked KH and GH super recently but it’s usually in the 140-180 range, the tank is buffered with aragonite in the filter because these levels are very low without it. 
 

temperature sits between 75-76°F

[Colu]

Possible parasitic infection you can get the odd random deaths weeks apart I can't be a 100% that's what's going on if you have introduced fish recently and didn't quarantine it would be worth while doing three full courses of paracleanse two weeks apart so you would want to treat on week 1 week 3 week 5 @AnxiousAndFishious

[AnxiousAndFishious]

On 3/27/2024 at 11:05 PM, Colu said:

Possible parasitic infection you can get the odd random deaths weeks apart I can't be a 100% that's what's going on if you have introduced fish recently and didn't quarantine it would be worth while doing three full courses of paracleanse two weeks apart so you would want to treat on week 1 week 3 week 5 @AnxiousAndFishiousYes, first guy to die came to me with rapid breathing and wasn’t super active, and towards the end only hung out near the top  (I got him from my sister who keeps them in a 30g community tank—she says she hasn’t had any deaths but I wonder if there’s so many fish she just hasn’t noticed any missing)

yeah, I got the group all together and since they were alone in the tank besides the shrimp, I didn’t quarantine. They were also coming from my sister and I figured they were healthy since she wasn’t having problems.

 

is it possible the parasite was in my tank without a host? Or could the shrimp be carriers without being affected? 
 

I previously had a betta alone in the tank that died very suddenly (slightly swollen belly, lay on the floor the night before he died, the next day he had trouble swimming (swim bladder?) and was heavily breathing, within hours he was dead. All within less than 24hrs. So, somewhat similar to the endlers, although the endlers don’t struggle to swim, they stay near the top heavy breathing until they rest on the bottom before they die.
 

There were several weeks if not a couple months between the betta dying and the shrimp being added though. Then the endlers were added not long after the shrimp. Curious if there’s a connection or if the tank could have been hosting the problem without a host fish.
 

thanks for the advice, I’ll do another round at 3 and 5 weeks.

[Colu]

It's not very likely for shrimp to have bought in parasites if your betta was lone for a long period of time in that tank chances of your betta having a parasitc infection that's now affecting your endlers is less likely unless there came in with a parasitc infection from your sister tank  I would check your tap waters KH and GH just to make sure your tap water hasn't changed low KH and GH can cause a lot of health issues in liverbears diet  what are you feeding and how often 

[AnxiousAndFishious]

On 3/28/2024 at 9:46 AM, Colu said:

It's not very likely for shrimp to have bought in parasites if your betta was lone for a long period of time in that tank chances of your betta having a parasitc infection that's now affecting your endlers is less likely unless there came in with a parasitc infection from your sister tank  I would check your tap waters KH and GH just to make sure your tap water hasn't changed low KH and GH can cause a lot of health issues in liverbears diet  what are you feeding and how often 

another dead caridina today. I’m very discouraged. 

 

KH api test strip reading: 80ppm

KH API master test kit: 5° (50-100ppm)

GH api test strip reading: 180ppm

GH API master test kit: 12° (140-200ppm)

 

High Range PH: 7.4

Ammonia: 0.50 ppm — probably because of the dead caridina (will do a water change now) 

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 5

[AnxiousAndFishious]

Oh sorry, I didn’t check my tap water GH and KH, let me do that now:

 

tap water also read KH at 5° (50-100ppm)

Tap water GH: 6° ( 3°-6° = 50–100ppm /

                                 6-11° = 100-200ppm) 

[AnxiousAndFishious]

Diet is mainly tropical fluval bug bites, sometimes substituted for North Fin Community micro bits, and occasional frozen mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, daphnia. Fed twice per day. I might add a sinking wafer for the shrimp once every two weeks.

[Colu]

With how quickly the Cardinal are dieing something else could be going on what I would suggest is stop treating with paracleanse for now  there  could be a bacterial component to what going on and do a course of maracyn or maracyn2 which every one is more readily available both are shrimp safe @AnxiousAndFishious

[AnxiousAndFishious]

Unfortunately can’t get my hands on Maracyn in Canada, I’ve been lucky to collect the supplies I have, which are: 

Polyguard

Kanaplex

paracleanse

metrocleanse

fenbendozole (pancur)

(Also fixIck and Ridich+ and aquarium salt)

I could get Maracyn Oxy easily, but Maracyn/2 would be $$ on eBay and take awhile to get here. 😕

[Colu]

You can do a course of kanaplex that a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment but it can be harmful to shrimp it's not very effective in food as very little of the medication is adsorbed by the intestinal tract you could quarantine your fish if you have another tank or a tote or remove the shrimp and then  treat with kanaplex maracyn oxy active ingredient is sodium chloride essential salt so it would be more effective against fungal infection @AnxiousAndFishious

[AnxiousAndFishious]

Thank you. 
should I give that a shot now or let them rest after the Paracleanse?

[Colu]

I would follow do  a large water change and run active carbon for 24hr to remove any remaining medication then do a course of kanaplex @AnxiousAndFishious

[AnxiousAndFishious]

So just an update that my caridinas were most likely dying from the higher GH. They need a 4-6, and at a 12 it was way too high. I checked it recently after noticing I was down to 5 out of my original 15 shrimp, and it had reached 18. I’ve been doing several small water changes with distilled water to bring it down and their babies have been emerging from the Java moss, thankfully.

 

As for the endlers, my sister finally noticed some of hers dying and having stringy poop so she treated with paracleanse. My remaining 4 are fine, although they’re still in QT with 8 new ones. They had two rounds of meds in QT, but I’m worried about bringing them back to the display and them eating my babies now that they’re all out and about. Fish keeping is not for the faint of heart 😂