Boiling spider wood

[NickD]

I have 3 medium size pieces of spider wood, when I put them in my 29 gallon aquarium tannins started to appear. How much should I boil them to completely get rid of the tannins or get rid of most of them. I see videos of people with crystal clear aquariums with giant pieces of dark driftwood, I’m like what??

[Gannon]

I've found that when boiled spider wood tends to not last as long, though maybe its a bit hard to say as spider wood doesn't last that long to begin with. If you do boil it, don't boil it too long. Additionally getting ALL the tannins out of any driftwood is near impossible, but sometimes good to get the worst of it out. My tanks with spiderwood are very crystal clear, but thats largely in part to the strength of my lights and the amount of time they've been around and lost tannins. 

[NickD]

@Gannonwhat lights do u use

[Gannon]

On 3/18/2024 at 12:01 PM, NickD said:

@Gannonwhat lights do u use

Finnex 24/7 HLC light works well, so do my NICREW lights but I don't remember what exactly they were called. Whatever works as long as it is very bright. Though some fish, plants, etc, wont like that, but tannins will help and many of those lights are adjustable. 

[clownbaby]

Personally, my advice would be to simply embrace the tannins (they're good for your plants & fish), but I also understand not everyone wants yellow water 😅

I am a total nerd, so let me add in some scientific knowledge here.

I haven't used spider wood or any other driftwood with a tannin problem in aquariums, but I do collect wood pieces from the beach & local hikes for my garden or my grandpa's pond. Sometimes I will find a piece that is really dirty, has a lot of tannins, or still has phloem, cork cambium, or bark/cork. 

Anatomy of a Tree 

Heartwood is dead wood. It is old growth cells (sapwood, vascular cambium, phloem, or cork cambium/cork) that has died and now only serve the purpose of structural support. Sapwood aids in transpiration: which is water vapor exiting through the leaves of the tree. Vascular cambium is new sapwood growth, but does not do much for transpiration; it is simply a new expansion of sapwood. Phloem serves in the transportation of sugar - it takes sugar from the leaves (which is produced by photosynthesis) to the roots. Cork cambium is the cells of the bark and the bark serves as protection of the inner layers. [note: bark is also called cork.]

If you cut through phloem, you cut through sugar transport... which kills the tree, as it cannot gain nutrients any more. If you cut through only a section of the phloem (so not completely cutting the entire trunk) or only one limb, the tree does not die.

Tannins within Tree Trunks & Limbs

There are two kinds of tannins: condensed tannins and hydrolysable tannins. Condensed tannins are found in food and byproducts, and can generally be ignored. Hydrolysable tannins are found in tree bark, stumps, limbs, trunks, leaves, and some nuts/seeds. Both condensed tannins and hydrolysable tannins aid the tree in protection, whether protecting against fungus, bacteria, disease/rot, or insects. Hydrolysable tannins are primarily made up of ellagic acid, gallic acid, and sugar [glucose]. Ellagic acid and gallic acid have anti-bacterial and anti-inflammatory abilities, hence fighting against diseases & whatnot. Chemically, ellagic acid and gallic acid are actually white, but when exposed to oxygen, turns brown/yellow. 

Considering that hydrolysable tannins primarily protect the tree from external threats (disease, fungus and bacteria, insect, etc), most tree species have the highest concentration within their bark and cork cambium, with tannin concentrations following within the phloem and then cambium. Sapwood and heartwood is [typically] incredibly low in tannin content.

What kills trees
Trees die from a removal of access to nutrients and/or roots. Because of this, trees die for six main reasons.
1.     Drought. Trees need water for nutrients. In the process of transpiration, trees take water from the soil through the roots, up the sapwood, and out through the underside of leaves or needles. Without water, trees cannot take in carbon dioxide, and, in addition to an absence of water movement, therefore cannot create nutrients.
2.     Drowning. While many wetland trees have adapted to low-oxygen conditions, with many of them constantly living in water, most tree roots cannot tolerate saturated soil or being submerged in water. This essentially suffocates the tree, as the aeration in the soil which usually provides oxygen is absent, making it so the tree cannot obtain oxygen via the roots. Additionally, this can disrupt the photosynthesis process, as the sunlight and carbon dioxide is disproportionate to water.
3.     Disease. Disease is a wide term, but typically means an organism (bacteria, fungi, or some other simple organism) is saprophytic or parasitic, taking away nutrients from the tree.
4.     Insects. Many varieties of insects eat the bark, sap, and inner wood of trees. Many insects lay their eggs in trees or house in trees. Bugs can kill trees by:
 a) burrowing deep within the bark, or to the inner wood, of trees
 b) sucking sap and other nutrients from the tree
 c) disturbing photosynthesis and other nutrient transfers
 d) spreading disease
 e) … and more.
5.     Cutting. Due to logging, this is the most common reason for tree death. Without access to the phloem, the roots are deprived of sugar, and starves.
6.     Excess nutrients (also called fertilizer damage). This is the best way to go about killing a tree or limb if you want a specific part of the tree. Nutrients such as magnesium, calcium, potassium, phosphorus, iron, and boron are very important, but can be deadly in excess.

How this all applies to tannins in wood

(AKA: TL;DR)

Tannins are highly present in bark and cork cambium, so it is best practice to remove the bark from driftwood if any is present. I use a potato peeler that is specifically for plant use (not for eating!), but any knife, razor, or even your own hands will do a good job. If the bark or cork cambium is hard to get off, soak it for an hour in hot salt water. You can use table salt or epsom salt. 
By removing the bark, you remove a high concentration of tannins.
Hot water leaches out tannins in high quantities, as heat triggers a transfer of nutrients.
Salt causes fertilizer damage – the excess of nutrients suffocates the tree.

I would use 1 cup of epsom salt per every quart of water. Allow it to dissolve before putting the wood in. Soak this for at least half an hour.
For cooking salts, mix one-fourth to one-half cup of salt for every quart of water. The process is the same.

After soaking, use a rag or abrasive scrubber and scrub the wood all over with hot water. Rinse with lukewarm to cold water, and repeat if needed.
Chances are, you’re going to need to do this at least twice. Using a razor the peel layers between soaking & scrubbing can also help, but depends on the wood piece. 

As a relatively last resort, soak it in boiling vinegar concentrate (one fourth cup of vinegar per quart of water.) This will engage several nutrients and help leech the tannins. You can also mix salt and vinegar, but be sure to thoroughly rinse several times before putting it in the tank. 

 

Hope my long-winded nerdy info-dump helped! Haha...
 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:01 AM, NickD said:

I have 3 medium size pieces of spider wood, when I put them in my 29 gallon aquarium tannins started to appear. How much should I boil them to completely get rid of the tannins or get rid of most of them. I see videos of people with crystal clear aquariums with giant pieces of dark driftwood, I’m like what??

Depending on your filtration, you can use Seachem Purigen to remove tannins, though I don't know if it also absorbs liquid fertilizers. Otherwise, you could just water change your way out of tannins.

[NickD]

@Rube_Goldfishso u can only put this media in a filter? Because I run sponge 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 3/18/2024 at 6:32 PM, NickD said:

@Rube_Goldfishso u can only put this media in a filter? Because I run sponge 

I've only ever heard of using Purigen in a filter. Maybe you can tuck it into a media bag or nylon hose like you can with peat moss or crushed coral, but if so, I've never seen or heard of it. Sorry that's not a more helpful answer.

[johnnyxxl]

On 3/18/2024 at 5:43 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Depending on your filtration, you can use Seachem Purigen to remove tannins, though I don't know if it also absorbs liquid fertilizers. Otherwise, you could just water change your way out of tannins.

My understanding is purigen removes everything from the water. 

I know a lot of the tanks online achieve the clear water by doing big water changes to get the tannins down, or using the purigen or something similar.

Personally I have a blackwater tank the fish will love it, the plants are doing great with it.

[Bsquared]

When I had a tank full of manzanita it took about 2 months for the tannins to be barely noticeable. Most of the color was gone within a month. This was with no boiling

[doktor zhivago]

I boiled my tanks' spiderwood twice for about 30 mins each time just to get it to sink faster. The first boil water was basically black. The second boil was lighter. It still took another day of soaking in clean water which was a little brownish by the end. I haven't noticed any discoloration in the aquarium water since I put it in the tank .

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 3/18/2024 at 4:44 PM, clownbaby said:

Personally, my advice would be to simply embrace the tannins (they're good for your plants & fish), but I also understand not everyone wants yellow water 😅

I am a total nerd, so let me add in some scientific knowledge here.

I haven't used spider wood or any other driftwood with a tannin problem in aquariums, but I do collect wood pieces from the beach & local hikes for my garden or my grandpa's pond. Sometimes I will find a piece that is really dirty, has a lot of tannins, or still has phloem, cork cambium, or bark/cork. 

Anatomy of a Tree 

Heartwood is dead wood. It is old growth cells (sapwood, vascular cambium, phloem, or cork cambium/cork) that has died and now only serve the purpose of structural support. Sapwood aids in transpiration: which is water vapor exiting through the leaves of the tree. Vascular cambium is new sapwood growth, but does not do much for transpiration; it is simply a new expansion of sapwood. Phloem serves in the transportation of sugar - it takes sugar from the leaves (which is produced by photosynthesis) to the roots. Cork cambium is the cells of the bark and the bark serves as protection of the inner layers. [note: bark is also called cork.]

If you cut through phloem, you cut through sugar transport... which kills the tree, as it cannot gain nutrients any more. If you cut through only a section of the phloem (so not completely cutting the entire trunk) or only one limb, the tree does not die.

Tannins within Tree Trunks & Limbs

There are two kinds of tannins: condensed tannins and hydrolysable tannins. Condensed tannins are found in food and byproducts, and can generally be ignored. Hydrolysable tannins are found in tree bark, stumps, limbs, trunks, leaves, and some nuts/seeds. Both condensed tannins and hydrolysable tannins aid the tree in protection, whether protecting against fungus, bacteria, disease/rot, or insects. Hydrolysable tannins are primarily made up of ellagic acid, gallic acid, and sugar [glucose]. Ellagic acid and gallic acid have anti-bacterial and anti-inflammatory abilities, hence fighting against diseases & whatnot. Chemically, ellagic acid and gallic acid are actually white, but when exposed to oxygen, turns brown/yellow. 

Considering that hydrolysable tannins primarily protect the tree from external threats (disease, fungus and bacteria, insect, etc), most tree species have the highest concentration within their bark and cork cambium, with tannin concentrations following within the phloem and then cambium. Sapwood and heartwood is [typically] incredibly low in tannin content.

What kills trees
Trees die from a removal of access to nutrients and/or roots. Because of this, trees die for six main reasons.
1.     Drought. Trees need water for nutrients. In the process of transpiration, trees take water from the soil through the roots, up the sapwood, and out through the underside of leaves or needles. Without water, trees cannot take in carbon dioxide, and, in addition to an absence of water movement, therefore cannot create nutrients.
2.     Drowning. While many wetland trees have adapted to low-oxygen conditions, with many of them constantly living in water, most tree roots cannot tolerate saturated soil or being submerged in water. This essentially suffocates the tree, as the aeration in the soil which usually provides oxygen is absent, making it so the tree cannot obtain oxygen via the roots. Additionally, this can disrupt the photosynthesis process, as the sunlight and carbon dioxide is disproportionate to water.
3.     Disease. Disease is a wide term, but typically means an organism (bacteria, fungi, or some other simple organism) is saprophytic or parasitic, taking away nutrients from the tree.
4.     Insects. Many varieties of insects eat the bark, sap, and inner wood of trees. Many insects lay their eggs in trees or house in trees. Bugs can kill trees by:
 a) burrowing deep within the bark, or to the inner wood, of trees
 b) sucking sap and other nutrients from the tree
 c) disturbing photosynthesis and other nutrient transfers
 d) spreading disease
 e) … and more.
5.     Cutting. Due to logging, this is the most common reason for tree death. Without access to the phloem, the roots are deprived of sugar, and starves.
6.     Excess nutrients (also called fertilizer damage). This is the best way to go about killing a tree or limb if you want a specific part of the tree. Nutrients such as magnesium, calcium, potassium, phosphorus, iron, and boron are very important, but can be deadly in excess.

How this all applies to tannins in wood

(AKA: TL;DR)

Tannins are highly present in bark and cork cambium, so it is best practice to remove the bark from driftwood if any is present. I use a potato peeler that is specifically for plant use (not for eating!), but any knife, razor, or even your own hands will do a good job. If the bark or cork cambium is hard to get off, soak it for an hour in hot salt water. You can use table salt or epsom salt. 
By removing the bark, you remove a high concentration of tannins.
Hot water leaches out tannins in high quantities, as heat triggers a transfer of nutrients.
Salt causes fertilizer damage – the excess of nutrients suffocates the tree.

I would use 1 cup of epsom salt per every quart of water. Allow it to dissolve before putting the wood in. Soak this for at least half an hour.
For cooking salts, mix one-fourth to one-half cup of salt for every quart of water. The process is the same.

After soaking, use a rag or abrasive scrubber and scrub the wood all over with hot water. Rinse with lukewarm to cold water, and repeat if needed.
Chances are, you’re going to need to do this at least twice. Using a razor the peel layers between soaking & scrubbing can also help, but depends on the wood piece. 

As a relatively last resort, soak it in boiling vinegar concentrate (one fourth cup of vinegar per quart of water.) This will engage several nutrients and help leech the tannins. You can also mix salt and vinegar, but be sure to thoroughly rinse several times before putting it in the tank. 

 

Hope my long-winded nerdy info-dump helped! Haha...
 

This is a great explanation! Thanks for taking the time to post this!