Bolivian ram sexing

[Founddaniel]

Could anyone venture a guess as to the sex of this bolivian ram. I've got two bolivian rams in this tank and was 99% sure I had two males. That is until this morning when I woke up to them laying a clutch of eggs on a rock at the bottom of the aquarium. I've watched Lowell's labs video on them as well as a few pictures guides and I was pretty confident they were both males. Oddly enough of the pair their is one bigger fish and one smaller, but it's the bigger ram that is currently laying the eggs, the (second clutch today!). I've now lost all confidence In my sexing abilities and come to all you good folks. I haven't seen this guy fertilize the eggs yet so I'm starting to wonder if they are both females? Although the both seem to act protective of the egg clutch which I don't imagine a competeting female would do? Any help is appreciated 

[Fish Folk]

Here’s an interesting page on the general question.

My initial guess here is female. B-Rams are tricky.

(1) The egg tube is noticeably large on females.

(2) Dorsal fin top and caudal fin extensions on adult males are much linger and more pointed than on females.

(3) Less reliable… the black spot is _generally_ darker and solid on males. Females tend to be less defined.

(4) Along the front dorsal spines, about 3x in, females sometimes have very light colorations. Additionally, males frequently have longer front dorsal extensions than females.

[Founddaniel]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:10 PM, Fish Folk said:

Here’s an interesting page on the general question.

My initial guess here is female. B-Rams are tricky.

Hmm yeah the egg tube is large and looks similar between the two. Is it common for a female to lay a clutch of eggs with no male partner? And for two females to prepare and protect the egg clutch? 

[Fish Folk]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:48 PM, Founddaniel said:

Hmm yeah the egg tube is large and looks similar between the two. Is it common for a female to lay a clutch of eggs with no male partner? And for two females to prepare and protect the egg clutch? 

I would say… no, not common. Were the eggs laid tan or white? 

[Founddaniel]

On 2/13/2024 at 9:53 PM, Fish Folk said:

I would say… no, not common. Were the eggs laid tan or white? 

I would have said tan, though looking right now they appear more white, might be the blue light of the night light though. Here's an image of the clutch right now. I watched the larger of the pair lay this whole clutch and didn't see the other (imaged ram) go to fertilize, or at least not right on the eggs from what I could see. Which started my suspicion they could both be females instead. Another image of the ram, can see the tail fin which does have somewhat long points to it, one of the reasons I originally thought it was male. Kinda blurry though 

[Fish Folk]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:03 PM, Founddaniel said:

I would have said tan, though looking right now they appear more white, might be the blue light of the night light though. Here's an image of the clutch right now. I watched the larger of the pair lay this whole clutch and didn't see the other (imaged ram) go to fertilize, or at least not right on the eggs from what I could see. Which started my suspicion they could both be females instead. Another image of the ram, can see the tail fin which does have somewhat long points to it, one of the reasons I originally thought it was male. Kinda blurry though 

Well, it’s very possible she’s just dumping roe. I’ve had Angels do that. But if no fuzzy white fungus shows up, maybe there was a sneak fertilization you missed seeing. If the eggs are tan, they’re fertilized. They’ll start wiggling soon. Otherwise, everything will get fuzzy white with fungus.

[Guppysnail]

My fertile ram eggs stay clear. The white ones were infertile.  Here is a photo of one of my batches  

[Founddaniel]

Well the eggs survived the night with both rams continuing to protect the area. I think I can see two colourations, some white and fuzzy, with some tan coloured ones. Curious to see what comes of it. 

On 2/14/2024 at 7:58 AM, Guppysnail said:

My fertile ram eggs stay clear. The white ones were infertile.  Here is a photo of one of my batches 

How far along would you say the eggs in your photo are, in the tan eggs I have I feel like I can see one black speck but no where near as developed as what you have here. 

[Guppysnail]

On 2/14/2024 at 8:42 AM, Founddaniel said:

Well the eggs survived the night with both rams continuing to protect the area. I think I can see two colourations, some white and fuzzy, with some tan coloured ones. Curious to see what comes of it. 

How far along would you say the eggs in your photo are, in the tan eggs I have I feel like I can see one black speck but no where near as developed as what you have here. 

Those in my photo are almost ready to hatch . I don’t remember exactly but those hatched either that night or the next morning. If you see a black speck that’s been typically 24 hours in mine. Mine are German not Bolivian so higher temps may have my timeline slightly accelerated from what your will be.