Sand always looks dirty!

[Mercfh]

I have a 55g tank with a cream colored sand (Technically sunset gold caribsea sand). It seems like no matter what I do even after water changes/vacuuming substrate it always looks so dirty!

I have plants/driftwood and it doesn't help that my catfish/loaches like to poop in this one particular stone/house thing. But even then it just feels like it shows EVERYTHING and even after vacuuming the substrate (Which is difficult to get everything due to rocks/driftwood/decor/plants) it just doesn't look "clean".

I have good filtration (Fluval 407 + Aquarium Coop large sponge filter) and good flow..so I don't think it's a filtration problem. Is this just how sand is?

[nabokovfan87]

It's definitely not a thing of "that's just how sand is."  I understand the frustration and I get it.   A lot of people will avoid sand for the fear of not being able to keep it clean.  Aquascapers will keep a bag of sand handy, siphon the old sand, then put a layer of bright fresh new sand. 

I just tend to siphon it really well and go from there.  I have had the sand you're using and I was able to keep it really clean for a long time.  I have 3-5 plecos in the tank and a lot of corydoras. 

One thing to note here is that the 407 doesn't have the best intake suction in the world.  It probably is intended for a 3 foot tank, not a 4 foot tank (I am running one on a 75G) and basically you're just dealing with a few things here.  I mention it because I don't want you to assume that all of the waste/debris on the sand will end up getting sucked into the canister.  It has to be in the water column for that to happen.  You can take something like a chopstick, hand, siphon, or pinsettes and get the debris into the water column to help the filter out. 
 

As far as how to siphon sand, that sand in particular is pretty easy to suck up and it will get into your pumps.  Keep that in mind too with the 407.  I would recommend spot cleaning the sand, start in one area one week, then do another the next week, etc. if you find yourself with too much to clean at once.
 

 

On 1/20/2024 at 8:45 PM, Mercfh said:

I have plants/driftwood and it doesn't help that my catfish/loaches like to poop in this one particular stone/house thing. But even then it just feels like it shows EVERYTHING and even after vacuuming the substrate (Which is difficult to get everything due to rocks/driftwood/decor/plants) it just doesn't look "clean".

Have you ever tried the spraybar kit?

[Lennie]

I agree with @nabokovfan87 that sand does not mean it will be dirty.

My overstocked S.American tank in the bedroom is majorly sand but I cant recall seeing it dirty really. The circulation there keeps it pretty clean. I have never siphoned it ever. And the color is beige, not even dark

Meanwhile, with the sand + sponge filter combination in my fishroom, sand gets yucky. Sponge filter is very bad at mechanical filtration in my opinion. But even then debris/mulm sits only the top, so all I gotta do is sucking the debris on top gently and thats it.

I never siphon my fine sand. I think that would do more harm than good by disturbing the layer and mixing poop in between. Im talking about 0.1-0.5mm sand here tho. And 1-2mm in some tanks

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

My opinion is sand will be dirty. 🤣 For awhile it can be maintained but it gets to a point where it always looks dirty, particularly with overstocked tanks (like mine) or with high bioload creatures like pleco and mystery snails (also like mine) 🙄😂.  To remove some of it and add new could be a solution. Or you could mix gravel into the sand to help hide things. Adding river rocks helps camouflage waste too. A catappa leaf layer is the best way to camouflage that I’ve found. But remove the leaves before they decay or it will dirty the sand…😂

Um, good luck, lol

P.S. I am using pool filter sand. I’m not saying it’s better or worse than other sand. Idk

Edited January 21 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Jawjagrrl]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:45 PM, Mercfh said:

I have a 55g tank with a cream colored sand (Technically sunset gold caribsea sand). It seems like no matter what I do even after water changes/vacuuming substrate it always looks so dirty!

I have plants/driftwood and it doesn't help that my catfish/loaches like to poop in this one particular stone/house thing. But even then it just feels like it shows EVERYTHING and even after vacuuming the substrate (Which is difficult to get everything due to rocks/driftwood/decor/plants) it just doesn't look "clean".

I have good filtration (Fluval 407 + Aquarium Coop large sponge filter) and good flow..so I don't think it's a filtration problem. Is this just how sand is?

I finally decided to "upgrade" one of my 75s to a canister - I have two large coop sponge filters running it now and my water values are generally good with nitrates around 20ppm or less (it "spiked" to 60ppm recently after a heater died, but it was also holidays and didn't get water changes as often as usual). But there's always debris floating around and I find the whole process of getting those coarse sponges out without losing half the debris in them... problematic in a heavily scaped/planted setup.

We had made the long trek to the closest LFS to us and saw they had the 407 at an even lower price than Amazon was offering. I knew Cory had run Ladybird's whole tank for ages on a single f6, so in the middle of a crowded store on a Saturday (the college students were just back last week too), made the impulse buy.

Was hoping to run this on a 75 and perhaps remove the 2 sponges as the tank is so heavily planted and my cichlids are getting closer to adult size and could use the room). Now I'm wondering if I've underbought? I've got a 55 that needs an intervention as well (stacked pair of medium sponges plus a small internal filter for additional mechanical filtration/flow).

I know I should have done more research, but when hubby called me saying they had fluvals and how much, I jumped at the chance (especially since I have nerm spending guilt and he was enabling!). I'm sure they would let me exchange if need be, especially after they found out I'm successfully breeding pencilfish they are having a hard time stocking!).

 

FOR THE OP: As far as the clean sand goes, I went with the darkest large grain sand I could find - it's Cumberland river (TN) and It's fantastic (wanna say it's caribsea brand). Mulm will sit on top making it easier to remove and it doesn't get sucked up as easily as fine sand does. I tracked down two larger sizes of the same stuff - lentil size and jelly bean size - for scaping a more natural look. My geophagus redesign it constantly, but at least it looks good while they do it!

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/21/2024 at 3:02 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

P.S. I am using pool filter sand. I’m not saying it’s better or worse than other sand. Idk

Ironically, the way that PFS is designed as a filter is also why it "always" will get dirty, "It" meaning sand. We were talking about it in that last shrimp journal post about how stuff like mulm, botanicals, and those "fines" will mix in the sand and make that substrate more bioactive by feeding copepods and all of the little meiofauna.

... always learning something new. Here is today's tidbit.

"There are several size groups of organisms that live in or on the sediment: microfauna (< 63 μm in size), usually bacteria or protists that live attached to sand-sized (0.125–2 mm) grains or larger particles; meiofauna (63–500 μm) that are about the same size as the sediment mineral grains amongst which they are living."

At some point it could be cleaned, rinsed, but there is a point of no return. With a lot of people using sand, it's about how to handle it, accepting that it does change over time. With blackwater setups in particular it is absolutely part of the process and it takes a while for the substrate to adjust. It's interesting, it's a unique little part of the hobby I didn't realize, but it makes sense.

Edited January 21 by nabokovfan87

[Mercfh]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:02 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

It's definitely not a thing of "that's just how sand is."  I understand the frustration and I get it.   A lot of people will avoid sand for the fear of not being able to keep it clean.  Aquascapers will keep a bag of sand handy, siphon the old sand, then put a layer of bright fresh new sand. 

I just tend to siphon it really well and go from there.  I have had the sand you're using and I was able to keep it really clean for a long time.  I have 3-5 plecos in the tank and a lot of corydoras. 

One thing to note here is that the 407 doesn't have the best intake suction in the world.  It probably is intended for a 3 foot tank, not a 4 foot tank (I am running one on a 75G) and basically you're just dealing with a few things here.  I mention it because I don't want you to assume that all of the waste/debris on the sand will end up getting sucked into the canister.  It has to be in the water column for that to happen.  You can take something like a chopstick, hand, siphon, or pinsettes and get the debris into the water column to help the filter out. 
 

As far as how to siphon sand, that sand in particular is pretty easy to suck up and it will get into your pumps.  Keep that in mind too with the 407.  I would recommend spot cleaning the sand, start in one area one week, then do another the next week, etc. if you find yourself with too much to clean at once.
 

 

Have you ever tried the spraybar kit?

I do have the spraybar kit, but it's set at the top.....should I put it at the bottom? You mentioned the 407 doesn't have good suction? I hope it's ok for a 55g. I do have a large coop sponge filter in there as well...but yeah it def. overall looks dirty ironically in the corner near the intake. I do probably overfeed some though but IMO it's not really overstocked or anything.

I think part of the problem is my python hose does a terrible terrible job at getting debris. I may just use a normal gravel vac in a bucket to get the debris up, and then switch to the python for changing water. Cause it can barely lift up fish poop.

 

Also how dangerous/common are these "deadly gas pockets". My sand is around 3 inches thick.

Edited January 22 by Mercfh

[Scapexghost]

My experience with sand is that if you leave it be it will get dirtier and dirtier and then one day it will no longer be dirty. I think it slowly sinks into the sand or something idk tbh

[govsfabshop]

Might try playing with a wave maker or powerhead to get some movement towards the filter intake. I have a white sand beta tank with real low flow and its a nightmare to keep clean, my 125 is sand and took some playing with filter positioning/water movement to get right but i rarely have to gravel vac anything except around some driftwood or rocks on occasion. That tank i run an fx6, tidal 110 on the side and a aco powerhead as well, took a little while to get the positioning of everything right but once you get it your golden!

[MattyM]

If you can keep them in check, I use Malaysian Trumpet Snails - they churn the sand. My (black) sand never looks dirty, whether it's a 20g with a HOB or a 100g with 2 canisters. I also have a school of cory cats that help drive stuff into the water column so the filters can get it, and lots of smaller "scatter" stones placed around, which may help hide some mulm. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:12 PM, Mercfh said:

I do have the spraybar kit, but it's set at the top.....should I put it at the bottom? You mentioned the 407 doesn't have good suction? I hope it's ok for a 55g. I do have a large coop sponge filter in there as well...but yeah it def. overall looks dirty ironically in the corner near the intake. I do probably overfeed some though but IMO it's not really overstocked or anything.

Is it installed on the back wall of the tank or the side of the tank?  I don't recall how much work it would take to get it setup on the side of the tank.  I have bits and pieces of mine cut to the width I need.  You can see it here on the tank.  Basically what this does by side-mounting is make sure that you're pushing the flow across the tank, circle back, into the intake area.

On 1/21/2024 at 6:12 PM, Mercfh said:

I think part of the problem is my python hose does a terrible terrible job at getting debris. I may just use a normal gravel vac in a bucket to get the debris up, and then switch to the python for changing water.

There's a thing you have to check on the python itself to fix the suction.  But, yes.... use a bucket / hand siphon to siphon so the sand doesn't go down the drain.  Then use the python itself for the actual water movement.

Check the gap here... it often will loosen up as you tighten it to the faucet / hose.