Help with BBA in planted freshwater tank

[awgraham]

Hello fellow fish people,

I found this store/site sometime in the past year or so and am really enjoying the forums, the YouTube videos, etc. I kept freshwater fish as a kid and have gotten back into in the past 5 years or so. Hoping for some collective advice/answers from the Aquarium Co-Op community.  

My tank is ~18 gallons rimless (with a glass top) planted freshwater tank. Last summer I had a heater go bad on me, so started over after that, with the current config now up and running ~7 months. 

My current livestock includes:

• ~5 Cory cats
• ~7 rainbow fish
• 1 honey gourami
• 1 Molly (had two others, but they died a few months ago)
• 2 nerite snails

I do a ~33% water change each weekend. My tap water is quite hard. I buy Ro-Di at a local aquarium shop and refill my tank with 50/50 tap/Ro-Di. When I do water changes I test and record my levels. Will post a screenshot. Everything has been quite steady for a long time. 

This is my light: Finnex KLC-24A (24.5 watts) https://www.fin nex.net/planted-klc

I have it plugged into a timer. I turn it on once in the morning for 1 hour. Then I turn it on again in the afternoon. Currently that is for 9 hours, so 10 hours total per day. I started with I think 7 or 8 total hours, but was trying to get my plants to grow better (I don't inject CO2), so increased it a couple hours until my current pattern. Don't recall when I made those adjustments, but definitely at least 2-3 months ago I moved to the current 1+9 hours pattern. 

I also started using Aquarium Co-Op's Easy Green. Per my order confirm, I bought that at the end of August, so have been using that for 4.5 months. Started using one pump per water change. After maybe 3-4 weeks, changed that to 2 pumps.

I have developed what now I am able to identify at black beard algae. I have rocks and wood, so for that hardscape, I've removed them individually, scrubbed with wire brush, trying to remove as much as possible, sprayed with 3% hydrogen peroxide, let stand 5-10 minutes, then thoroughly rinsed and put back in tank. That seems to be working pretty well.

Oh yes, also, just went to aquarium shop, which suggested likely BBA came from having high phosphates. Bought a test kit, just tested and result is 0 phosphates. They suggested that cause could be either issues with my tap water (possible) or me overfeeding (I don't think this is the issue).

OK, now questions.

1) BBA on hardscape seems to be addressed, but many of my plant leaves still have it. I believe to try to eliminate, I need to put some 3% hydrogen peroxide in the water and then maybe change my lighting pattern for a few days. If so, can you provide guidance on how to do this? I don't have another tank to put my fish in for safe keeping, so I know I'll be taking a risk.

2) What do you suspect caused this in the first place? Too much light? Too much Easy Green? Which would you test first? If light, how many daily hours would you reduce it? How many days/weeks would you wait to determine results?

 

Thanks in advance for any/all suggestion and help! Happy to answer any Qs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mmiller2001]

Plants are in serious micro deficiency. Make the light interval a continuous 8 hours and decrease pH to 6.5 by lowering KH. Get rid of the molly so you can lower KH without worry and to allow better micro absorption because easy green is EDTA chelated. Increase water changes to 50% every 7 days and alter the ratio mix to lower KH to 15ppm (less than 1dKH). Before each water change, wave your hand over the substrate to get all the muck in the water column then do the 50 water change. After the water change, dose enough Easy Green to bring Nitrates up to 20-25ppm and dose to maintain 20 to 25 ppm Nitrates throughout the week.

[Pepere]

I agree with mmiller2001.  When plants have algae growing on them it is generally because they are not healthy and thriving.

dosing the tank with Hydrogen peroxide or pulling plants and spraying them or washing peroxide over them under water is not going to address the plant health meaningfully.  I know cause I stubbornly tried for months… and I tried liquid carbon products as well with no results to show for it… and I tried algae eating fish…

It is not so much algae growing on your plants causing them to suffer as it is suffering plants leaching waste organics and nutrients that algae finds amenable to them…

Treating hardscape with peroxide is fine.

Doing changes mentioned above will not resolve it over night or within a few weeks, but similar efforts is what gave me success…

[awgraham]

Thanks to both of you for the feedback. Adding a couple more pics I just took. Some of my plants seem to be doing quite well and aren't riddled with algae. My original pics were intended to highlight the issue. Based on newly added pics, is the assessment still the same? Drop the daily lights to 8 hours straight and move to 50% water changes every 7 days with higher ratio of Ro-Di water?

Thanks again!

 

 

[cmo1922]

There are lots of variables that can lead to poor plant health and then to algae. In my experience you will inevitably get algae on hardscape and glass if you are providing sufficient light and nutrients for your plants. But algae on the plants themselves usually means your plants are unhealthy and need something.

I agree with all of the above due to my experience treating staghorn algae (from the pic of the plant it looks like you have that too). My additional suggestion is rather than applying the hydrogen peroxide to the plants, just work on fixing the nutrient deficiency, excessive waste/organics, and light issues as suggested above. Then you should see some new growth that is algae free. As you see new/healthy growth, trim off some of the unhealthy growth with algae on it. 

Also a healthy shrimp (neocardina, amano) and snail (bladder, ramshorn or nerite) population help keep debris off your plants that can lead to algae (and sometimes they eat algae too, depending on type of algae), if you are able to establish that in a tank with rainbow fish. 

One thing I've also started doing, is instead of doing one large dose of ferts at a water change, I spread the large dose out into smaller doses daily (this is what George Farmer does). Not sure if it is helping, but I only get green spot and green dust algae in my tanks, and it's only on the glass and rocks (which I'm cool with as it feeds my inverts).

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:13 PM, awgraham said:

Oh yes, also, just went to aquarium shop, which suggested likely BBA came from having high phosphates. Bought a test kit, just tested and result is 0 phosphates. They suggested that cause could be either issues with my tap water (possible) or me overfeeding (I don't think this is the issue).

OK, now questions.

1) BBA on hardscape seems to be addressed, but many of my plant leaves still have it. I believe to try to eliminate, I need to put some 3% hydrogen peroxide in the water and then maybe change my lighting pattern for a few days. If so, can you provide guidance on how to do this? I don't have another tank to put my fish in for safe keeping, so I know I'll be taking a risk.

2) What do you suspect caused this in the first place? Too much light? Too much Easy Green? Which would you test first? If light, how many daily hours would you reduce it? How many days/weeks would you wait to determine results?

 

Thanks in advance for any/all suggestion and help! Happy to answer any Qs.

 

There's a bit going on here and I have been dealing with BBA for about 3 years or so and it's been a constant fight.  Let's take a look at a few things and break down what is going on.

Generally speaking, the center-middle of your tank is going to be the spot where the light is the most intense.  You want to have plants that can handle that bright intense light or things like a void of hardscape in that place so that you can sort of restrict algae.  (Sidenote, I have had BBA grow on the back of a HOB in the dark.... so light is part of the story here)  Once the BBA finds a place to take hold, then it grows.  When it's really, really happy you have teal, blue, grey, and reddish hues.  It's sort of like coral in that way.  In your photo we do see that, so this BBA is really loving that bright area of the tank.  BBA spreads via spores.  They find a surface they like and will go from one spot to the next.  This is where water changes can dramatically help you with removing those spores.  You can't do it with UV, you can't do it any other way apart from water changes.

 We also see an active substrate. That's great because it helps you give the plants what they need and demand.  It gives you a good chance, especially as a newer hobbyist (don't worry, I am right there with you compared to a lot of the others on the forums.  MMiller's tank is a dream! ) to get into some medium level plants and faster growing plants.  Active substrate needs to be charged.  It releases negative ions, absorbs in nutrients for the plants to use.  Mainly this is form of your KH, potentially GH as well.  Which just means, if you notice the tank dropping into 0 KH and your tap is at something like 4 degrees KH, then you'd want to do water changes to get KH back to norm.  You're using a mix of RO+Tap, which just means be aware of what the plants need, what the tank needs, and go from there.  Normally, water changes with tap is fine (depending what it is) and then you would do top-offs with RO.  Of note, if you haven't, consider tabbing the tank with root tabs to feed the plants as well. 

Ironically, you can get BBA from having no phosphate and from having too much phosphate.  The whole logic here is that whatever is going on, one of two things is happening.  Either, the plants don't have one of the building blocks they need to grow (NPK) or that nutrient is in excess and feeding the algae.  You have the test kit and you're reading 0, so that makes it pretty clear which side of the coin you're on.  Lower phosphate does help. I think my tank runs in the 0.75-1.5 range, but it definitely varies based on load in the tank for me.

Lastly, based on your stats, you are using test strips for the KH/GH.  I ran into an issue with my tank where my strips went a bit wonky on me and I ended up getting the liquid test kit.  I highly recommend that route for GH and KH so you have accurate data and can verify your test results.

So....
-Adjust hardscape if the BBA is centered under high light.
-Adjust plants so they have the light they need, propagate out, and growing successfully.
-Verify equipment, flow, nitrate, and all of the common bba things. (more on this below)

 

On 1/17/2024 at 1:13 PM, awgraham said:

BBA tends to develop in tanks where flow/circulation might be focused in one spot and stagnant in others, which can result in stuff like debris building up in spots.  Essentially, BBA loves to grow where organics are rotting.  This could be in forms of the excess waste in the substrate/filtration, dying plant leaves, or wood in the tank.  Moss acts similarly, where it can filter out particles in the water.  If the flow isn't high enough, that starts to rot and then you have algae that forms.  In the photo above we see dying plant leaves which are harboring the BBA, it sends out spores, then that propagates out.  The plant grows new leaves with the little energy it has, then the BBA goes to those new leaves.  The only way to get through this is to get ahead of that cycle.  You can dip the plants to attack the bba and start killing it, but you also need to balance out whatever is causing the BBA in the tank.  That's the long term goal.... balance the system so you don't have issues with bba, but you will always have to take those steps to fight it back when you see it growing in full force.

That's sort of the issue here.  You have BBA, it's taken hold, and you have to fight it constantly to keep it from getting to that point.  If you don't, it's just a bit difficult to get it to back down.   There is a link to an algae thread in my signature that has a bit of the details I've picked up and my approach right now.

The last thing I will say is that we should review your filtration setup, maintenance routine with that filter, and focus right now on siphoning the substrate to remove the excess waste.  For being a newer tank, there is a lot of detritus/mulm and you'd want to remove that to help reduce what the algae can feed off of. 

With BBA it's a lot of little things done consistently in order to get it under control.

I would pull the plants to treat them using the Jurijs method (3-day soak) followed by the Bentley method of doing a blackout for a week.  When you pull the plants, also pull the hardscape so you can treat that as well.  You would basically brush it with hydrogen peroxide every other day, let it sit in air for 10-15 minutes, and then place it back in the tank.  As mentioned in the Jurijs video, you have to do multiple treatments in order to get BBA killed.  the first treatment will just weaken it.  If you don't have anything to eat the algae, manually remove it, remove heavily infected leaves asap,

Bentley method for blackout with BBA:
-Black out the tank from ambient light and turn off the light to the tank.
-Daily water changes, I would recommend that you iphon if you need to when doing those water changes.
-Do this for 7-10 days.

While that blackout is happening, this is how you would treat the plants... with hydrogen peroxide, easy carbon, or flourish excel. 
 

 

Edited January 18 by nabokovfan87

[awgraham]

Wow, so much to process. So far, the only change I have made is to the lights - set them to run 8 hours per day starting today.

One basic question - despite reading and watching lots of videos and forums, I'm unclear on whether I'm meant to be actively digging into the substrate with my vacuum or not. Initially (first 2-3 months?) I was doing that, but often the substrate would clog the vacuum and it was a mess. I asked my local aquarium shop which seems to have well-informed, curious employees) if I needed to that, and the 1 or 2 people I chatted with that day said "absolutely not". So I stopped.

As far root tabs, I have done it in the past, but can't remember if I did for this tank in the past 7 months. If I add tabs, how often should I be doing that?

Also, my filter is a hang on back filter. It sits on the left side of the back of the tank. A couple of times we've had power outages and luckily I was here and was able to get it re-started, but worry about this happening while I'm away from the house. Have been thinking about replacing it with sponge filters.

I'm a data analyst by trade and so whatever changes I make, would like to make major changes one at a time to have a better chance of understanding whether the change had a positive or negative impact. Main problem seems to be that timeframe to observe impact is so slow....weeks maybe. 

Anyhow, thanks to all who continue to read and contribute their suggestions and comments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:56 AM, awgraham said:

Wow, so much to process. So far, the only change I have made is to the lights - set them to run 8 hours per day starting today.

One basic question - despite reading and watching lots of videos and forums, I'm unclear on whether I'm meant to be actively digging into the substrate with my vacuum or not. Initially (first 2-3 months?) I was doing that, but often the substrate would clog the vacuum and it was a mess. I asked my local aquarium shop which seems to have well-informed, curious employees) if I needed to that, and the 1 or 2 people I chatted with that day said "absolutely not". So I stopped.

As far root tabs, I have done it in the past, but can't remember if I did for this tank in the past 7 months. If I add tabs, how often should I be doing that?

Also, my filter is a hang on back filter. It sits on the left side of the back of the tank. A couple of times we've had power outages and luckily I was here and was able to get it re-started, but worry about this happening while I'm away from the house. Have been thinking about replacing it with sponge filters.

I'm a data analyst by trade and so whatever changes I make, would like to make major changes one at a time to have a better chance of understanding whether the change had a positive or negative impact. Main problem seems to be that timeframe to observe impact is so slow....weeks maybe. 

Anyhow, thanks to all who continue to read and contribute their suggestions and comments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just wave your hand over the surface. Going too deep will cause problems. Every couple of years you could do a deep clean but you’ll need a few back to back 90% water changes after a deep clean.

Root tabs are pointless IMO.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/18/2024 at 9:56 AM, awgraham said:

As far root tabs, I have done it in the past, but can't remember if I did for this tank in the past 7 months. If I add tabs, how often should I be doing that?

The best way I can explain it is this method for an active substrate. You should be cleaning it if you have flow issues. If you see algae issues it's definitely causing some strife there. This particular algae loves any sort of rotting organics.

 

Again, it goes back to how much opinion is out there and not hands on testing. I call it parroting. Someone trustworthy to someone says something and that goes from one to the next to the next. It's like that phone game when you're a kid and we all know how miscommunication can happen in that case.

With a newer tank, with active substrate they often say to not rinse it or to never siphon it because they want to treat it as if it's a dirted tank.  They want the waste to charge up the nutrient level in the substrate.  But, substrate  is often shipped and at some point You're getting mud, not little substrate balls and removing that mud is useful.  Just rinse vs no rinse is a controversial topic, so we can imagine how much the difference is once those things are in the tank.  I siphon it to try to remove the mud. Being new, even myself, I am still working on my technique for siphoning the substrate and it's a process. I love Cory's advice and videos on this.

 

I am right there with Miller where you have to really dial in the water column fertilization and treat the substrate as secondary. It is there to not hurt you and your substrate is often what works and how well does it work for planting or feeding. Let's just focus on getting the algae receding, which does include making sure the substrate is more clean than it is right now.

 

For comparison sake, I feed heavy, this is wat mine looks like.  Not some prepared photo, just one I have on the phone. This is the spot in the tank where the debris settles. The surface is "clean" and there are bits of waste in the depths of the soil. (These are new plants that went through a de-snail treatment and are transitioning.)

 

On 1/18/2024 at 9:59 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Every couple of years you could do a deep clean but you’ll need a few back to back 90% water changes after a deep clean.

That's the thing that a lot of people don't do, thos major back to back deep cleans or just huge water changes to remove junk. I watch George Farmer do his maintenance videos and he's doing 2-3 big water changes. He will do his work and all the trims, then do a big water change once the work is done.

[Pepere]

I would still suggest going with weekly 50% water changes with water mix to get you at the very least below 2 degrees of kh, and Dose the water with Easy Green to 20-25 ppm nitrates.  
 

with an 18 gallon tank you are looking at around 12 ml of Easy Green to add around 20 ppm nitrates.  You are currently around 20 ppm so a 50% water change would drop to 10.  This would give you around 30 ppm total front loaded.  It would also give much needed micronutrients…. At current dosing, your livestock, feeding provides a fair amount of nitrates, and so e phosphorous, but that is reading low as well…

I-think waiting to see what the change in lights will do by itself will mean buying new plants and growing more algae…

[awgraham]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply I'm only changing the lights. Was waiting to process all comments before deciding on other changes. Did a 50% water change today, waving hand over substrate before doing so. Trying CMO1922's suggested approach of spacing out the Easy Green doses. Also, buying liquid tests for KH/GH. Went to two local stores and couldn't find it, so ordered from Amazon and will be here early next week. PPM dropped to 245 after today's water change.

[Pepere]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:55 PM, awgraham said:

Did a 50% water change today, waving hand over substrate before doing so.

I would dose Easy Green to have total tank nitrates around 20-25 ppm.

this will require much more dosing than the Easy Green label…. Each 1 ml pump of Easy Green raises Nitrate 3 ppm in a 10 gallon tank.

WIting for better GH, KH test kit is reasonable enough.  I think @Mmiller2001 recommendation to lower it is primarily to lower the ph which will allow better plant utilization of the Iron in Easy Green that gets bound up and inaccessible to plants in higher ph.

Not only is it what “I would do” it is by and large what I actually do…

 

And these are the results I get doing it.  Now granted I also have CO2 running, but increasing your  macro and micronutrients are likely to improve things substantially from where they are now.

Edited January 18 by Pepere

[awgraham]

@Pepere I did 50% water change this morning (~10 days since my last one....had knee surgery last week so didn't do over the weekend while recovering). After that I dosed half pump of Easy Green. My current reading looks to be 20 or 40. Attaching photo.

I use API tests. Usually I take all my stats before dosing Easy Green. One of the issues I have with the API Nitrate test is I have troubling discerning the orange color of 5 vs. 10 ppm and the red of 40 vs. 80 ppm. Most times, after a water change (and before dosing) my reading looks around 20 ppm. Questions:

 

1) Is there another nitrate test to recommend where it is easier to discern/accurately interpret the results?

2) By your math above, each pump of Easy Green raises a 10 gallon tank by 3 ppm. So that would mean for my 18 gallon tank, assuming I was starting from 0 ppm (which I'm not, but for easy math), I would need like 14 pumps of Easy Green to get around the necessary dosage to reach 20-25 ppm range?

3) If I am to increase the Easy Green dosage significantly, I assume first I need to take advice of  @nabokovfan87 first to do my best to rid the tank of as much algae as possible? Otherwise, assume the algae could benefit from all these nutrients instead of the intended target, my plants.

 

Edited January 18 by awgraham

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/18/2024 at 3:19 PM, awgraham said:

2) By your math above, each pump of Easy Green raises a 10 gallon tank by 3 ppm. So that would mean for my 18 gallon tank, assuming I was starting from 0 ppm (which I'm not, but for easy math), I would need like 14 pumps of Easy Green to get around the necessary dosage to reach 20-25 ppm range?

3) If I am to increase the Easy Green dosage significantly, I assume first I need to take advice of  @nabokovfan87 first to do my best to rid the tank of as much algae as possible? Otherwise, assume the algae could benefit from all these nutrients instead of the intended target, my plants.

Before I add ferts my nitrates are very low. Then I add nitrates and it's anywhere from 10-30

[Pepere]

Ok. A but to unpack.   
 

yes the API can be hard to discriminate in the ranges you discuss.  1 method I use to determine the difference is to alsodu a 50% dilution of tank water and test that.  Ie 1/2 cup tankwater, half cup ro water and test a 5 ml sample.  If original tank water has you guessing is it 5 or 10 ppm, then the 50% dilution should make it clear.  Ie if it is hard to tell the difference between the two sample assume it was closer to 10, and if there is a big difference, assume it was 5.

 

same concept with 40 or 80…

 

that looks closer to 40 to me, but a dilution will give more clarity.  As such, you could probably benefit from a few back to back changes to get tank nitrate level before dosing Easy Green down to the 5-10 range…. When I say back to back, that can mean next day etc,,.Then dosing with Easy Green from there to give the plants enough other nutrients.

It is always a good ideato remove as much algae manually as you can.  Ie snip off heavily infested leaves.  They are likely too far gone to recover anyways,  remove decor to spray with peroxide and allow them to sit 10 minutes after spraying them in a dark spot, (peroxide loses potency exposed to light.  Wave hand over substrate to raise detritus and siphon that, wave hands through plants etc… Try to siphon out any visible free floating algae.  The more algae particles you remove the less to propagate new growth.

I would not be attacking algae before feeding the plants to allow them to grow.  Healthy thriving plants typically do not get covered with Algae.

 

I have tufts of bb algae grow on a rock or two on occasion but the plants are by and large free of it…. Healthy thriving plants defend themselves well against algae.

 

) By your math above, each pump of Easy Green raises a 10 gallon tank by 3 ppm. So that would mean for my 18 gallon tank, assuming I was starting from 0 ppm (which I'm not, but for easy math), I would need like 14 pumps of Easy Greento get around the necessary dosage to reach 20-25 ppm range?

 

yes right around there..  

 

if your tank is currently 40 ppm nitrate and you do another 50% water change with water that has no nitrates in it that would lower you to around 20 ppm.  Another 50% change after that would drop you closer to 10 ppm.  

Alternatively a single 75% water change would also drop you to 10 ppm.

then you could add back 8-10 pumps of Easy Green to bring you up to around 20-30 ppm…

 

Then you wait.  Next week, do another water change after removing all algae you can manually and try to dose as close as you can to what you had. Avoid other changes… keepthings stable

 

It will take 2-3 weeks for plant to reprogram for the new nutrient soup you are giving them.  New growth gets reprogrammed much better than old growth.  In 3-4 weeks you should start seeing healthy new growth…. As new growth grows out clip off old dying leaves.  With stem plants clip off new growth and replant discarding the old weak growth…

Edited January 19 by Pepere

[awgraham]

I haven't done a second water change yet, but likely will today/tomorrow. I tested my tap water this morning and it has 181 PPM. If I'm going to be needing/using this much Ro-Di water, I probably will want to buy a system to be able to make this at home, rather than keep driving 30 min round trip to fill up 5 gallon containers. Can anyone point me to trusted info sources / discussions about this equipment? Thank you!

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:55 AM, awgraham said:

I haven't done a second water change yet, but likely will today/tomorrow. I tested my tap water this morning and it has 181 PPM. If I'm going to be needing/using this much Ro-Di water, I probably will want to buy a system to be able to make this at home, rather than keep driving 30 min round trip to fill up 5 gallon containers. Can anyone point me to trusted info sources / discussions about this equipment? Thank you!

 

Bulk Reef Supply has good units. Local hydroponic stores sell units also and can be less expensive.

[awgraham]

Update and more Qs....

I have done several more water changes. Also, I bought a small RO system from my local aquarium shop (Aquatic Life RO Buddie for 100 GPD). Also, re-checked my tank volume math and turns out my tank is closer to 16 gallons, not 18. So a 50% water change for me should about 7.5 gallons or less, considering hardscape, substrate, etc. 

Today I removed some of the browning hornwort, I did a ~50% water change, replacing with only RO water. After that my PPM was 116 and my nitrates were around 10, so I added 10 pumps of Easy Green.

I have bought some java moss that I wrapped around my shrimp cave in preparation for adding some amano shrimp at some point.

More questions:

1) As I am going these changes and observing my plants, what am I looking for? New growth? I will continue to prune away leaves that are covered with algae. What else am I looking for? What are good signs?

2) I know shrimp need consistent parameters. What specifically should I be looking for before I feel ready to add them to the tank? Other than hiding places and moss, anything else I should do to prep for them? What number of shrimp would you recommend adding?

3) Should 50% weekly water change be my new normal? I assume from this point forward I should just use RO water when refiling the tank. Is there anything I need to be adding to the RO water? 

4) Editing to add one more Q. My thermometer sticker on the outside of my tank reads 76. But just for the first time noticed my TDS meter reads temp and it says just a but under 73. Are the sticker thermometers known for being untrustworthy? Is there is inexpensive solution that is more reliable?

 

Thanks again to all for taking the time to read my posts and offer advice.

 

 

 

Edited January 23 by awgraham

[Pepere]

I would be wanting to add some Calcium and Magnesium to the RO water to feed the plants.

You could buy some epsom salt for the magnesium and a calcium supplement, or you could add Seachem Equilibrium…

there is no question Seachem Equilibrium will cost a lot more per dose, but it doesnt require much math or measuring…  it has the calcium and magnesium at correct ratio and also supplements potassium and iron…

I cant speak to the shrimp myself…

 

basically you will look for healthy new growth.  It may take weeks… patience is the hardest skill to develop…

I would keep up with 50% weekly changes until you have healthy vibrant growth with no visible algae.  After that you could reduce to 30%, but your not talking a big difference in gallons.  51/2 vs 8 gallons…

 

[Macready]

My .02, 
I'm relatively new to the hobby myself, about to hit a year in. Sorry to hear you are having a hard time with algae. I think you are on the right path, I see you are taking notes and asking questions here so it's just a matter of time (and energy, and willpower, and troubleshooting).

Shrimp definitely need mostly consistent parameters, I might be tempted to wait a bit for things to stabilize as you are still troubleshooting things. Particularly hardness so they can molt successfully. Big swings in water parameters are tough on the shrimp.

I use a laser thermometer to check temperature, I wouldn't trust the sticker based ones personally.  

As @Pepere said, new growth and no algae is a really good sign things are on the right track. 

I had some trouble at the beginning balancing my tank, and things became more stable for me after I added some floating plants.  Floating plants can help control algae because they suck up extra nitrate but they also shield out some of the light.  It can be annoying to have to scoop some out every once in a while because they have crowded out the top though, they aren't perfect. If I understood this thread correctly you might have an issue with too little nutrients so floating plants might be the exact opposite thing you need and make things worse.  Something to tuck away in case you ever find yourself in a situation with excess nutrients I guess. 

Edited January 23 by Macready

[Xr4tiCrew]

So much info and why do plants have to be so hard. I feel you @awgraham I am dealing with the same issue and trying to trust the process. The tanks that are shown here really don’t feel like it’s even possible but here’s to hoping. Good luck. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:10 PM, awgraham said:

1) As I am going these changes and observing my plants, what am I looking for? New growth? I will continue to prune away leaves that are covered with algae. What else am I looking for? What are good signs?

You want to see the algae that is there not grow, if it remains the same, that's a win. If it grows, something is encouraging it to rapidly spread. Remove rotten leaves, look for new growth, yes. You want to see and continue to see the algae slow down/stop/recede and then you want to see the plants growing at a faster rate than the algae itself.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:10 PM, awgraham said:

2) I know shrimp need consistent parameters. What specifically should I be looking for before I feel ready to add them to the tank? Other than hiding places and moss, anything else I should do to prep for them? What number of shrimp would you recommend adding?

This is a Mark's shrimp tanks question and his last 4-5 videos are all basically on this series or questions. You want to see green algae on decor. You want to see a tank with "life" and you want to see plants thriving. Adding shrimp in the middle of hectic issues and algae chemical treatments might not be a fruitful idea, if things go that way.

The main thing I add for shrimp is wood. For a colony setup, minimum 15 shrimp is about right and give you room for some losses.

Water in = water out. So you want to be treating the tank as if it's a shrimp tank for about a month before you actually add shrimp.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:10 PM, awgraham said:

3) Should 50% weekly water change be my new normal? I assume from this point forward I should just use RO water when refiling the tank. Is there anything I need to be adding to the RO water? 

Yes and no. Yes weekly water changes help. Weekly 50% water changes is one of the only ways to change enough water for the sake of removing BBA spores. There's a link that was posted for an "effective water change calculator" which showed the difference of something like 50% water changes compared to 30% water changes over a month.

In terms of the statement above regarding treating it like a shrimp tank for about a month.... The awesome thing here is that treating the tank like a shrimp tank also means treating it like a planted tank. Verify you parameters are good. Keep it clean, change water to keep things thriving, etc. GH and KH buffers are normal if you're using RO.  If you're using tap water then you'd want to verify that water is acceptable. GH:KH ratio should be setup for the shrimp (also works for plants) and you'll want to have the method and routine dialed in.

One thing that can be beneficial is having a way to drop water back into the tank for water change as opposed to dumping a whole bucket in at once. It may not be required, but can be beneficial.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:10 PM, awgraham said:

4) Editing to add one more Q. My thermometer sticker on the outside of my tank reads 76. But just for the first time noticed my TDS meter reads temp and it says just a but under 73. Are the sticker thermometers known for being untrustworthy? Is there is inexpensive solution that is more reliable?

Always have to verify things with 2-3 sources. Your TDS meter could be off as well as your thermometer. Basically I would trust the TDS meter a bit more. I use the side stick on fluval thermometers and I have the floating type from marina. I just get an extra one so I can. Verify things. I have the heater itself visually telling me the temp on the LCD display, I can measure it with the stick on thermometer, and I have a floating one if I need it. I also have a thermometer for the kitchen I could use in a pinch.

Heaters can have a tolerance range of +/-2 degrees usually, but there are some that are +/-0.5 degrees.

The stick on thermometers I would expecr the range to be pretty high. Anything external to the tank, I also expect that, even with some of the ones I have in use. With the floating ones, the little paper inside can shift and move slightly. It's a good idea to run a test with a known temp so you can verify accuracy and use that information moving forward.

[awgraham]

Again, thanks for all the responses, encouragement and suggestions.

More temperature data...

I used my ThermoPop2 instant read thermometer, which I use and trust for cooking, which gave me a reading of 81. Side by side with my TDS & EC meter at the same time, it reads 76.4. I also used a point and shoot thermometer and it's reading was very close to the thermopop - 81.1 Meanwhile, my sticker thermometer on the outside of the tank reads 79. Did not expect such a wide range. I believe that the key here is consistency over time, but if my true current temp is currently 81, seems like I am likely too high. If so, how do I decide the right temp for my tank. By the way, very very happy and appreciative of all the answers people are providing, but if there are any trusted resources I should be reading, rather than just lazily asking all of you, please point me to those, so I can research there first before asking.

Today I'm going to start the Jurijs method as recommended by @nabokovfan87. Fingers crossed. Also, thanks for pointing me to the Mark's Shrimp Tank YouTube channel. Watched one vid. Plenty more I need to watch and learn from.

 

 

Edited January 23 by awgraham

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:56 AM, awgraham said:

I used my ThermoPop2 instant read thermometer, which I use and trust for cooking, which gave me a reading of 81. Side by side with my TDS & EC meter at the same time, it reads 76.4. I also used a point and shoot thermometer and it's reading was very close to the thermopop - 81.1 Meanwhile, my sticker thermometer on the outside of the tank reads 79. Did not expect such a wide range. I believe that the key here is consistency over time, but if my true current temp is currently 81, seems like I am likely too high. If so, how do I decide the right temp for my tank. By the way, very very happy and appreciative of all the answers people are providing, but if there are any trusted resources I should be reading, rather than just lazily asking all of you, please point me to those, so I can research there first before asking.

To the hand, 78+ feels "warm" while normal temps for shrimp will feel slightly warm / room temperature. Not cold, just sort of comfortable Is how I would describe it.  Yeah, based on what you're testing, you have the two, probe and temp meter that are giving you the same value, so that should confirm what you're actual values are.  What does the heater say the temp is running?

[awgraham]

Heater doesn't tell temp. It's the "twist until the light comes on" type (Aquatop HTG Glass Heater with Guard - 50 watt).