Dealing with Ich

[Mercfh]

So I ordered some ich-x (for the future) but right now it looks like the only thing locally is the API ick cure. I have plants and corys so I figure i'll do half a dose (Has anyone had luck with this medication?)

As a side-question people say to increase the temp....but over what period? Im guessing with corys/pleco's I shouldn't go over 82?

 

Thanks

[JettsPapa]

It's my understanding that the various medications for ich all, or at least most, use the same basic ingredient, so it should be fine.

I don't believe raising the temperature that high for a relatively short term will harm most commonly kept tropical fish.  I don't remember the length of time required, but it shouldn't be difficult to find.  I have seen some people recommend raising the temperature, or treating with Ich-X or a similar product, but not both.

[UK rams]

Are you certain it's ich? There are other diseases with white spots though ich is a common one

[Galabar]

My suggestion would be raising temperature, salt, and medication.

[UK rams]

Cory's are fine with medication, it's just salt you have to be weary of

[UK rams]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:07 PM, Galabar said:

My suggestion would be raising temperature, salt, and medication.

There's no need for all three of those under any circumstances as it will stress the fish and do more harm than good. Ich is easy enough to deal with, sometimes raising the temperature alone can get rid of it. You certainly shouldn't add salt with corydoyas

[Galabar]

On 1/10/2024 at 12:30 PM, UK rams said:

There's no need for all three of those under any circumstances as it will stress the fish and do more harm than good. Ich is easy enough to deal with, sometimes raising the temperature alone can get rid of it. You certainly shouldn't add salt with corydoyas

Many sources recommend all three.  Temperature is important for speeding up the ich lifecycle (only the free-floating ich is vulnerable to medication).  It won't kill ich directly.  Salt will both make it more difficult for ich to complete their lifecycle and help fish with osmoregulation while they are being stressed.

On a side note, studies don't seem to show a salt intolerance with corydoras (although this is widely believed to be the case in the hobby): https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3981357&pid=11114

 

Edited January 10 by Galabar

[Mercfh]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:07 PM, UK rams said:

Are you certain it's ich? There are other diseases with white spots though ich is a common one

Im pretty sure. Looks like salt sprinkled on them. This also popped up after a missed water conditioner accident 2 days ago (So my corys got super stressed as did the other fish) so im not really surprised tbh.

Im just not sure how high I can safely raise it. Maybe 82f?

Edited January 10 by Mercfh

[Galabar]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:11 PM, Mercfh said:

Im pretty sure. Looks like salt sprinkled on them. This also popped up after a missed water conditioner accident 2 days ago (So my corys got super stressed as did the other fish) so im not really surprised tbh.

Im just not sure how high I can safely raise it. Maybe 82f?

I don't want to beat around the bush too much, but how long have the fish been in the tank and were any new fish recently added?  The common (and I think correct) belief is that ich doesn't spontaneously show up.  It needs to be introduced.

Google tells me that 86 seems to be a common temperature for treatment.  However, I'm not exactly sure where that number comes from... 🙂

 

Edited January 10 by Galabar

[UK rams]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:04 PM, Galabar said:

Many sources recommend all three.  Temperature is important for speeding up the ich lifecycle (only the free-floating ich is vulnerable to medication).  It won't kill ich directly.  Salt will both make it more difficult for ich to complete their lifecycle and help fish with osmoregulation while they are being stressed.

On a side note, studies don't seem to show a salt intolerance with corydoras (although this is widely believed to be the case in the hobby): https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3981357&pid=11114

 

I have kept and bred fish for 30 years and ich is not difficult to deal with. The parasite on the fish do not live a long life and are buried in the skin, salt, medication or temperature will have no effect. You only need to kill the free swimming larvae in the water and medication alone will do that. If medication alone doesn't then it probably isn't ich. It not just about stressing the fish directly (which doing all 3 will do) but also about the nitrogen cycle. Putting too many meds in the tank could well reduce your bacteria and it simply isn't needed.

[UK rams]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:04 PM, Galabar said:

Many sources recommend all three.  Temperature is important for speeding up the ich lifecycle (only the free-floating ich is vulnerable to medication).  It won't kill ich directly.  Salt will both make it more difficult for ich to complete their lifecycle and help fish with osmoregulation while they are being stressed.

On a side note, studies don't seem to show a salt intolerance with corydoras (although this is widely believed to be the case in the hobby): https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3981357&pid=11114

 

I have never used salt with Corys but I would tend to agree it's probably not true but I haven't tried it and don't think I ever will just in case. The internet also says Corys are sensitive to copper medication but I have used it with zero problems and the same with clown loach. I've had my clown loach for ten years plus and the tank has been medicated more than once

[UK rams]

On 1/10/2024 at 10:11 PM, Mercfh said:

Im pretty sure. Looks like salt sprinkled on them. This also popped up after a missed water conditioner accident 2 days ago (So my corys got super stressed as did the other fish) so im not really surprised tbh.

Im just not sure how high I can safely raise it. Maybe 82f?

There are temperature resistant strains of ich so I wouldn't put it too high. It's all about disruption of the life cycle. You can't touch the adult parasite "spots" with anything but you don't need to as they only live for a short while to release the next general into the water. You want to kill the free swimming stage. Raising the temperature merely speeds the lifecycle up. Temperature 77-80 for a week along with meds shouldn't be too stressful. If this does nothing I doubt it's ich

On 1/10/2024 at 10:11 PM, Mercfh said:

Im pretty sure. Looks like salt sprinkled on them. This also popped up after a missed water conditioner accident 2 days ago (So my corys got super stressed as did the other fish) so im not really surprised tbh.

Im just not sure how high I can safely raise it. Maybe 82f?

When I say merely speeds the lifecycle up, that's what you want so it dies quicker. At temperature under 75 it can take a couple or more weeks, temperature above this and yiu should see improvement in a matter of days

[Mercfh]

I set the temp to 80 for now. I have an airstone so hopefully that'll at least help. I gave them the API ich medicine so we'll see how it goes. I do sort of wonder how hard this kind of medication is. I mean Aquarium Coop gives this medicine I guess technically (well ich-x at least) to ALL fish right?

I did do half dose because Corys are scaless and sensitive so I figured that was the safest bet. Although I wonder if this should affect the length of the time I do the treatment. It basically says "Until signs of ich are gone" but I imagine it's hard to spot. How long does it usually take with meds?

Edited January 11 by Mercfh

[Lennie]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:04 AM, Galabar said:

On a side note, studies don't seem to show a salt intolerance with corydoras (although this is widely believed to be the case in the hobby): https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3981357&pid=11114

 

It mentions different salinity groups and max salinity tested was 2ppt.  Out of 80 fish, 10 died at the end of the testings. Also it says "There is evidence that salt in the water may be stressing the C. aeneus but that this stress does not cause significant mortality over a 13 week period. Furthermore, 13 of 16 fish survived a salt concentration of 2.0 ppt for the entire study period and 16 of 16 fish survived in the 1.0 ppt water."

Stress is stress. Fish don't have to die for it to be bad I think. Also stress is even worse during treatments because it lowers immunity, isn't it? Tanks had no filration for 2 weeks and fish were exposed to ammonia. I found this weird ngl. Moreover, it says "The labor involved in water changes became prohibitive and sponge filters were added to each aquarium. Once the sponge filters became established (approximately 3 weeks), water testing was reduced to every 72 hours and water changes to once per week." So fish were also exposed to ammonia around 5 weeks or so in total, or am I misunderstanding? So can we say ammonia is also fine for fish and we need no filtration based on this, just the way salinity is considered to be?

 

In this belowmentioned article, it says

"One of the best treatments and preventives for Ich has been 2 to 3 parts per thousand (ppt) of salt indefinitely. This is usually a very effective treatment for tank and recirculation systems but is not cost effective for ponds. In one recent case, however, Ich was observed to tolerate 3 ppt salt, while in another case, Ich withstood 5 ppt."

So the range is above what has been tried and seen as a stress factor already on cories.

https://aquaculture.ca.uky.edu/sites/aquaculture.ca.uky.edu/files/srac_476_ich_white_spot_disease.pdf

 

Also it is mentioned as 3 to 5ppt salinity here as well:

"A slight increase in salinity can help decrease osmoregulatory stress caused by the damage this parasite causes to the external tissues of the fish. At warmer water temperatures (75–79°F), use of 4–5 g/L (= 4–5 ppt) salt (sodium chloride) in a prolonged bath for 7 to 10 days is another effective treatment in smaller systems, provided the fish species can handle the increased salt concentration. Because theronts are intolerant to increased salinity levels of 3–5 ppt, salt is often added to aquaria or tanks that are being treated with formalin to enhance the response to treatment. Most freshwater fish can tolerate 5 ppt salinity for several weeks and many can live in 3 ppt permanently; however, it is important to know the specific tolerances for each species to be treated. Plants in an aquarium or small ornamental pond may not tolerate increased salinity."

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA006

 

So even tho the article you shared tried 2ppt salinity at max and still showed it as a stressor and had losses even without fish being sick and salt not being used as a treatment tool, I think it is hard to say cories are fine with it. Also other sources I mentioned above recommend at least the highest amount tried in that research but ideally higher due to ich's tolerance, even going up to 5ppt which is more than twice the highest salinity tested.

That being said, I am not a vet so this is all coming from a hobbyist perspective from what I read right now. Only @Odd Duck may help or comment further I suppose

Edited January 11 by Lennie

[Galabar]

I would agree that the presence of ammonia and the issue with filtration was strange in that study.  That is probably what led to the fish death.  Also, the phrase "There is evidence that salt in the water may be stressing the C. aeneus but that this stress does not cause significant mortality" does not make a whole lot of sense, as there isn't any evidence to actually make that claim...

 

[Mercfh]

So the API cure mentions dosing every 48 hours but not for how long? I also am doing half dose because of the corys being sensitive.

Also I don't have a carbon filter....do you think it's safe to leave it in there as I do normal water changes? (This is what aquarium coop instructions say for ich-x for I figure it can't be THAT different)

Edited January 12 by Mercfh

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:56 PM, Mercfh said:

Also I don't have a carbon filter....

I don’t think you’d want to run any carbon with meds as carbon pulls everything out of the water. Meds, tannins, fertilizer, etc. 

 

For ich I’ve successfully beaten it with salt. From keeping up with this thread it seems like you don’t have a second tank. Any chance you could pick up a 10 gallon tote to move the fish over there? Salt is magical, but will destroy plants. 

[Galabar]

Agree with both not using carbon (which will filter out the meds) and too much salt can be harmful to plants.  I've used salt (and meds and temp increase) for ich and my plants "survived," but may not have been completely happy.

 

[Odd Duck]

That study on salt tolerance in cories was pretty poor as there were significant other stress factors, like the lack of filtration, that make the study pretty worthless.  I’ve had no issues using low dose salt for cories or plants (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) and it can reduce osmotic stress on the fish.  Even low dose salt appears to have at least a bit of detrimental effect on Ich, but is not likely to be enough to clear it.

Cories should be able to tolerate 82’F for several weeks, somewhat dependent on species.  Most should be able to tolerate up to 86’F for the 10 days or so it takes to clear Ich.

The biggest risk is, it could be one of the species of Epistylus, which prefer warmer temps.  Posting some pics, as closeup and as sharply focused as possible, will help determine if it’s Ich or Epistylus.  With Ich the fish look sprinkled with salt.  With Epistylus, the spots are usually slightly irregular in size and shape, and tend to be more raised.  Epistylus will NOT improve with only raising the temp and may even get worse.  Epistylus species are best treated with Ich-X or an equivalent.  Ich can be treated with higher temp.  A UV filter can help with either by helping clear the vulnerable stages of the organisms out of the water faster.

[Mercfh]

It seems to def. be ich, based on pictures. The white spots are very flat and they do seem to be decreasing ever since putting ich-x in the water. It was only on my pleco's though weirdly (and maybe a guppy or two) I didn't see it on my corys. Maybe it was just stress ich? Either way can't hurt to treat. It looked like they were sprinkled in salt but it seems less so today.

Either way I'll continue to treat just in case. I wonder if when I forgot my chlorinator maybe the bacteria died (although it was only an hour) which lead to an ammonia spike and therefore stress ich or something? (They were newer fish)

[Odd Duck]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:57 AM, Mercfh said:

It seems to def. be ich, based on pictures. The white spots are very flat and they do seem to be decreasing ever since putting ich-x in the water. It was only on my pleco's though weirdly (and maybe a guppy or two) I didn't see it on my corys. Maybe it was just stress ich? Either way can't hurt to treat. It looked like they were sprinkled in salt but it seems less so today.

Either way I'll continue to treat just in case. I wonder if when I forgot my chlorinator maybe the bacteria died (although it was only an hour) which lead to an ammonia spike and therefore stress ich or something? (They were newer fish)

Even though Ich can be bad, it’s usually easier to treat than Epistylus.  It sounds like it’s already responding well, which is great.  Don’t let your guard down yet since it can go through boom and bust phases.

I’m crazy vigilant for at least 30 days after an episode.  Nothing moves out of quarantine for at least 30 days after looking completely healthy.  I once moved fish too soon and got Ich in my 100 gallon nanofish tank.  Temp up and light salt for 14 days, then I ran the UV sterilizer for 60 days because I was paranoid.  Lesions were gone in 5 days, but I did NOT want to give it another chance at going through that tank.  I never saw it on anybody but a few ember tetras, but yikes!  There was no way I was going to be able to catch fish out of there to go into a hospital tank!

[Galabar]

I really enjoyed this video: