I messed up! + Conditioner Questions

[Mercfh]

So like a fool I was changing my aquarium (29G) by doing a 33% water change (Well 2 5 gallon buckets). However like a fool I realized after adding the second bucket I forgot to condition the water. I quickly dosed it with a capful of prime (which is good for 55 gallons).

So a few questions:

1. How much did I hurt my fish? It was maybe 5-10 minutes where 5-10 gallons of water was unconditioned in the 29G
2. Can you over condition? IE: Since I dosed 55 gallons for a 29G?
3. In general is it ok to add conditioner to less water before changing water (IE: Like with the python system you can't really add conditioner to the "pre-water". I mean you are technically "over-dosing" I guess but it feels safer to add more to water beforehand
4. I've heard a lot of people when doing water changes just condition for the "whole tank" (Not just the "changed" water). Is this ok to do?

[lefty o]

your fish are fine, dont over think it.

[NOLANANO]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:30 AM, Mercfh said:

 

1. How much did I hurt my fish? It was maybe 5-10 minutes where 5-10 gallons of water was unconditioned in the 29G
2. Can you over condition? IE: Since I dosed 55 gallons for a 29G?
3. In general is it ok to add conditioner to less water before changing water (IE: Like with the python system you can't really add conditioner to the "pre-water". I mean you are technically "over-dosing" I guess but it feels safer to add more to water beforehand
4. I've heard a lot of people when doing water changes just condition for the "whole tank" (Not just the "changed" water). Is this ok to do?

1) You did not hurt your fish. I use a python and fill with tap water and condition the whole tank every time.

2) You can over condition but what you added is fine. I have read that you can go as far as 5x the recommended amount prior to hurting the fish. But I have also read that frequency can be an issue. Meaning you shouldn't add prime multiple times per day.

3) I am not sure the question but with my python I fill up my tank and then dose my 75G with a dose recommended for 150G. The reason I double is that my tap water is rather high in chlorine so I feel like it  needs a little extra. Maybe its a placebo effect but it makes me feel better.

4) Yes that is ok.

[Mercfh]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:45 AM, NOLANANO said:

1) You did not hurt your fish. I use a python and fill with tap water and condition the whole tank every time.

2) You can over condition but what you added is fine. I have read that you can go as far as 5x the recommended amount prior to hurting the fish. But I have also read that frequency can be an issue. Meaning you shouldn't add prime multiple times per day.

3) I am not sure the question but with my python I fill up my tank and then dose my 75G with a dose recommended for 150G. The reason I double is that my tap water is rather high in chlorine so I feel like it  needs a little extra. Maybe its a placebo effect but it makes me feel better.

4) Yes that is ok.

For #1: Are you saying you use water conditioner for the ENTIRE tank size every time (and not just the water you changed?) just to confirm.

[NOLANANO]

Yes

[Mercfh]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:46 AM, NOLANANO said:

Yes

Good to know. I've heard it's super difficult to "over" condition, especially with prime. Especially if Im doing a water change weekly.

[NOLANANO]

Yeah you would have to add a TON at one time. Thats what I was trying to get across ith my frequency comment. I think that its easier to do harm if you are doing water changes/adding prime too often rather than too much at one time.

[Comradovich]

1. Probably not very much, if at all.

2. Yes, but I believe you have to really go overboard to cause harm. I'm doubtful that double is enough. Fish aren't made out of chlorine molecules. Neither the chlorine or anti-chlorine treatments are really set up to be in caustic concentrations.

3. I'm assuming you're asking about adding conditioner to the water in the tank, (which has been lowered by the python), before adding in the new tap water? If so, then I doubt it'll hurt. You're almost immediately diluting that concentration. See below for "exposure interval".

4. This is overkill. The water in the tank has already been "conditioned", any free chlorine and chloramine has probably also bonded with whatever it is in there to treat and broken down. Probably won't harm your fish, you're just wasting product. Think of it a bit like over-feeding your fish or over-fertilizing your plants. These don't make the tank "better", they just end up promoting algae growth.

 

I'm going to link you to Prime Time Aquatics' YouTube channel:

Prime Time Aquatics

I'm doing a channel link as my brain has forgotten exactly which video this is discussed in. I'd imagine you can find the correct one with only about an hours worth of viewing. But Jason has a biology specialization degree of some type, so he definitely knows his biochemistry. If he tells you: "Here's how this works", you can be pretty certain that's exactly how it actually works. He discusses water conditioning at length in one of these videos. Here's what I remember as the main take aways:

1. The scientific paper Jason cites, (I think he might actually link to it as well), on water conditioning mentions that the concentrations are done at a very specific exposure interval: 1 hour. So, to get bacterial kill rates consistent with "clean" drinking water from a tap, it's expected that the bacteria you're treating for are going to soak in that treated water for at least an hour.

2. Gist of the above was that if you're adding water conditioner within about an hour of adding the untreated tap water, then you're probably not messing with your tank's biological filter bacteria all that much. This seems to be the main point of adding conditioner, as if the biological filter dies back, then it treats ammonia build-up less effectively. Granted, whatever bacteria survived are just going to repopulate the tank again, but that does take a week or so. So, worst thing you might have done is make your ammonia levels go up for a little while.

3. The chemical reactions breaking down chlorine and chloramine in tap water start happening as soon as you add conditioner to the tank. Remember that you're also diluting the new tap water with whatever water is already in the tank. The chlorine concentration is constantly lowering over time.

4. Your tap doesn't have the same chlorine concentration as a swimming pool, which is set up to kill bacteria like Cryptosporidium. Most of us can't smell the chlorine in our tap water. Dropping your fish into the local swimming pool might kill it. Exposing it to tap water... not so much.

I know as new fish keepers, most of us stressed about tap water conditioner. We probably shouldn't. Sometimes it might be worse for the system to panic and massively overcorrect our mistake, than it would be to just acknowledge that the mistake was made and let the tank recover. It'll also depend on your tap water. My tap water is low enough in chlorine/chloramine that I've gone months without adding conditioner to water changes. No ill effects were observed in my fish. I only decided to add it again for the slime coat protection. Your tap water might be higher in chlorine than mine is, and thus conditioner is required not optional. I can almost guarantee that it isn't swimming pool water, though. You can probably make a mistake or two without causing lasting harm to your fish.

[Flipper]

I love Jason's Prime Time Aquatics!  🥰

I just wanted to add a statement on this topic.  I don't use the python water change system for my 15 and 20 gallon tanks.  I add Prime to my bucket of tap water, amount needed for the new water only. 

I believe, as most experienced aquatic keepers, that the less chemicals the better.  It's supposed to be a "natural eco-system" for our aquatic plants and animals.  Not a tank full of chemicals and medicines.  There...    that's my 2 cents worth. 

 

 

[Galabar]

You are fine.  A lot folks (I think) who are conditioning the tank will add conditioner after adding water.

For #4, the instructions on the bottle say, if you are adding to the tank, condition for the whole volume of the tank. Why?  I'm not sure.  However, it may be the case that, even though there isn't much chlorine overall, you need a certain concentration of the product to work properly.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I dose my tanks for the entire water volume. When using my Python, I’ll dose for the whole tank volume as soon as the water is flowing from the Python into the tank. I’ve been doing it this way for 4 years and haven’t had a single issue across 14 tanks. 

[Mercfh]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:35 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

I dose my tanks for the entire water volume. When using my Python, I’ll dose for the whole tank volume as soon as the water is flowing from the Python into the tank. I’ve been doing it this way for 4 years and haven’t had a single issue across 14 tanks. 

So if you have a 55 gallon and you change 10 gallons for instance, you will still dose for 55 gallons? (if so that's good to hear since that seems to be the "safe route")

[Galabar]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:35 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

I dose my tanks for the entire water volume. When using my Python, I’ll dose for the whole tank volume as soon as the water is flowing from the Python into the tank. I’ve been doing it this way for 4 years and haven’t had a single issue across 14 tanks. 

Same here.  I get the temperature correct, then I start the water flowing through the Python.  At that point, I add Prime, dosing an amount for the entire tank.  I then move the Prime bottle and set it on the next tank I plan to change water for.  That way, I don't forget to dose it.

Edited January 6 by Galabar

[reefhugger]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:51 PM, Comradovich said:

I'm going to link you to Prime Time Aquatics' YouTube channel:

Prime Time Aquatics

Prime Time Aquatics is one of the very few sources I pay attention to, in addition to Corey and Irene.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:37 PM, Mercfh said:

So if you have a 55 gallon and you change 10 gallons for instance, you will still dose for 55 gallons? (if so that's good to hear since that seems to be the "safe route")

Correct. I typically take about 17 gallons of water out of my 55 gallon tanks, and will dose 5.5 ml’s of Prime or Complete. Similarly, with my 29 gallon tanks, I’ll take out 5 or 10 gallons, and then dose 3 ml’s of Prime or Complete. I always dose for the whole volume of the tank. 

On 1/5/2024 at 11:06 PM, Galabar said:

I then move the Prime bottle and set it on the next tank I plan to change water for.  That way, I don't forget to dose it.

I do the exact same. Except I use a little metal ramekin instead of the whole bottle. Dose, then move the ramekin and pipette to the next tank. 

[RachelElizabeth]

It will be fine! I have 0.25-0.5 ppm ammonia in my tap water, so I regularly double or even triple dose SeaChem Prime conditioner to help neutralize the ammonia until my bacteria are able to fully process it. And I for sure dose enough conditioner for the whole tank. For example, if I am doing a 1/3 water change in my 75 gallon, I am putting 25 gallons of new water in, but I still dose for the entire 75 gallons. And like I said, I sometimes double, so I add enough conditioner for 150 gallons even though I am replacing only 25 gallons in the 75 gallons tank, and I've never had any negative effects.

[Galabar]

I just wanted to interject to say that SeaChem Prime may or may not temporarily trap ammonia.  My advice is to use it, but assume that it isn't actually doing anything useful (keep up with water changes).

Unfortunately, lots of folks do have ammonia in their tap water.  However, at the concentrations that @RachelElizabeth mentioned, a cycled/seasoned tank should quickly be able to process it.

Edited January 10 by Galabar