“Alien Male”

[Epiphanaea]

. . . female betta smaragdina?  Very doubtful she(?) is genetically all smaragdina, being a Petco fish, but phenotypically?  S/he is not very cooperative for photography.

[nabokovfan87]

There is a lot of alien hybrids being sold.  Think... f1 of an alien, then they cross it with something to get coloration and patterns into that type. 

So yeah, I doubt it's a pure alien betta, but there's likely some alien DNA in there.

 

[Lennie]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:12 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

There is a lot of alien hybrids being sold.  Think... f1 of an alien, then they cross it with something to get coloration and patterns into that type. 

So yeah, I doubt it's a pure alien betta, but there's likely some alien DNA in there.

Alien bettas are hybrids themselves, so they cant be f0 because they dont exist in the wild, so neither can be pure. For something to be wild, they should actually exist in the wild as they are. At best they can have some wild genetics I believe.

 

 

 I would let it settle and color up to its best and check again for specific breed qualifications 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Lennie

[Epiphanaea]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:29 AM, Lennie said:

Alien bettas are hybrids themselves, so they cant be f0 because they dont exist in the wild, so neither can be pure. For something to be wild, they should actually exist in the wild as they are. At best they can have some wild genetics I believe.

My understanding is that aliens are some undisclosed hybrid of multiple wild types with domestic betta splendens, but that they breed true.  So they could be f0 in the same way a purebred poodle would be - not a wolf, also not a labradoodle, if you breed like to like you will get more of the same.  
 

I have also read that aliens are very inbred and prone to health problems, already, despite being a fairly new breed.  
 

My suspicion / conspiracy theory, therefore, is that whoever supplies Petco found “true” aliens, from established lines, too difficult to grow en masse to adult size and color at a sufficient survival rate to make it financially worth it.  But, knowing roughly how they were produced, they’re trying to replicate the process.  Hence, my vaguely-alien-mostly-wild-looking girl.

 

. . . or she’s just a poor specimen in terms of color and finnage, but the conspiracy theory is more fun.

[Lennie]

On 10/29/2023 at 3:21 AM, Epiphanaea said:

My understanding is that aliens are some undisclosed hybrid of multiple wild types with domestic betta splendens, but that they breed true.  So they could be f0 in the same way a purebred poodle would be - not a wolf, also not a labradoodle, if you breed like to like you will get more of the same.  

Here, we are talking about hybrids when it comes to alien bettas. Hybrids that do not exist in the nature to my knowledge. Maybe sort of like Flowerhorns or parrot cichlids? A hybrid is not a breed, but a hybrid, a mixture of other (pure?)breeds is what I understand.

As far as I know, in the hobby, F0 stands for wild pair (which is just a hobbyist word I believe), F1 is their offspring, and f2 is fry of their offspring. Wild caught altums you get are f0. Their babies will be f1. Wildcaught fish are always sold as F0 in my country. And their babies are sold as F1.

The term "purebreed" is explained in a science paper with these words:

"The definition of a purebred animal, from a scientific perspective, is based on a description of biological parameters and relates to animals having both parents of the same breed or variety, denoting a pure strain obtained through many generations of controlled breeding for desirable traits."

Also I'm not sure if it makes sense to compare a fish to a dog. 

Maybe @Biotope Biologist can help further about this purebred /hybrid situation and Filials. I just tried to explain what I know and I am not a biologist. So I surely can be mistaken and would love to hear from them.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Lennie

[Odd Duck]

Aliens are definitely hybrids, so by every definition I know, they can’t be F0.  But more casually, some people refer to the first fish they receive as an F0 since they usually have no way of knowing what generation it is.  Not “scientifically” correct, but easier to try to track once in their hands.  @Lennie Your example of wild caught altum angels is accurate.

You can compare dogs with fish, but when do we start deciding a breed is pure?  Dobermans as a breed are a fairly young breed that came from crossing many other breeds while trying for specific traits.  Same with boxers.  I have no idea how many generations have gone into aliens so even though they are a relatively young breed, II would say we’re well past the point of even using F0, F1, etc, notation for the fish that gets into the hobbyist’s hands.

[Epiphanaea]

Thanks guys, I am learning!  I am very new to this sort of terminology at all, so I went looking for what "F0" and "F1" and all meant, and then worked it out in my mind as it applies to animals that are more familiar to me.  I'm not used to thinking in terms of mixing species vs mixing breeds.  My understanding of a breed as relates to genetics and heredity is that the traits that define the breed standard must "breed true" - basically, that if you breed two Dobermans that conform to breed standards, you can reasonably expect to get offspring that also conform to breed standards.  The parents should be homozygous for the desirable traits, so there is no possibility of those traits being absent in offspring. 

That is what I had read about aliens - that they "breed true".  This could be totally wrong, of course, since I can't even remember my source except that it was some breeder of aliens on YouTube, I think?  But if that is true, breeding alien to an alien should get you 100% aliens, not some aliens and some throwbacks to wild type and some other random phenotypes.  If you do get that sort of variation of outcome, from aliens from alien parents who had alien parents and so on, then I would think describing them as purebred / F0 would definitely be misleading. 

(In so far as I have breeding goals beyond "learn to successfully breed domestic bettas, so you can possibly breed endangered wild bettas once you have experience", I would like to replicate a unicorn of a fish I randomly saw in a store, while hopefully also breeding healthy fish by way of crossing different genetic lines.  Said fish looked basically like a long-finned alien, that same intense patterning over solid iridescent coloring,though with a dark head.  I do not imagine I have the space or time to breed multiple generations until I can produce breeding pairs that look like that and will make little clones of themselves when bred together - but I might make pretty enough fish for someone else to want to try for it too.  Or I might just have some pretty fish to own.)

Edited October 29, 2023 by Epiphanaea

[Epiphanaea]

So I am thinking maybe Petco was closer to right than I thought - I think this is a male?  I thought I saw an egg spot several times, and I still think I can maybe see side bulges that look like ovaries.  But his-or-her ventral fins are very long, and s/he makes some impressive bubble nests.  
 

My females make bubble nests sometimes too, but I’ve noticed males seem to pile them high while females spread them out wider?  Not sure what that’s about.  I wonder if it could be territorial, a fake-out to discourage male fish, who are larger and typically more aggressive, from just moving in and taking over a prime spot, by making them think they’ll have to fight another male for it.  And if they show up anyway, they’ll be better mate material.  
 

But back to this critter - sometimes I can see gills when s/he breathes, but mostly not.  
 

So is my house just a refuge for gender-nonconforming bettas, or what?  Any experts want to weigh in?

[Fenway]

The system using F1, F2, etc doesn’t really have anything to do with with being from the wild. It’s just a breeding/genetics way of keeping track of generations. It’s not used just with fish or animals but breeding in general. F0 or P is the initial(parent) generation. Every generation after just gets one added after F. So the first generation of offspring is F1 the second generation is F1+1 or F2. So even just getting a new fish you could call the first generation of offspring your F1. Really just any breeding project can use this system, though it does get used frequently to describe how many generations an animal is removed from the wild. But that certainly isn’t what it’s limited to. 

[Lennie]

Hello again @Epiphanaea

We have a reputable betta breeder friend in our local group who also breeds so many different wild types.

I asked him what this is by sending the pics youve shared, and he said it is a male betta smaragdina. Not an alien or female.

I cant tell if it is exactly true or not but I hope it helps. At least wanted to share his opinion with you

[Epiphanaea]

I thought betta smaragdina!  But it’s from Petco.  Now that I think about it, though, the cup he was in had a re-printed label stuck over top of a different label - I thought maybe his original cup had cracked, but maybe he was a surrender?  A fish with a story, anyway.  He’s gorgeous and seems happy.

Thank you and thank your friend for me, please!

Edited November 20, 2023 by Epiphanaea

[Guest]

@Epiphanaea, Based on the looks of your betta I definitely see Imbelis but also a little bit of Alien. I wouldn't know the breed and correct me if I'm wrong. I also think that's a female, my Male Halfmoon was labelled female shortfin at the start for some reason (probably because the fins were so short and deteriorated when I got him). I think as he became older he was some kind of cross between a Crowntail and Halfmoon because he had very distinct ridges on his tail-fin that looked pretty Crowntail to me. 

[Lennie]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:03 PM, Epiphanaea said:

I thought betta smaragdina!  But it’s from Petco.  Now that I think about it, though, the cup he was in had a re-printed label stuck over top of a different label - I thought maybe his original cup had cracked, but maybe he was a surrender?  A fish with a story, anyway.  He’s gorgeous and seems happy.

Thank you and thank your friend for me, please!

You are most welcome. Anytime you need help, I can ask him. I only have personal experience with classic domesticated bettas and not wilds.

Btw, amazing color up since the day you got him. Seems like he loves your care and his tank 🥰happy boi

 

[Epiphanaea]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:37 AM, Lennie said:

You are most welcome. Anytime you need help, I can ask him. I only have personal experience with classic domesticated bettas and not wilds.

Btw, amazing color up since the day you got him. Seems like he loves your care and his tank 🥰happy boi

 

Well, I’m rethinking this whole breeding idea - the more I read about sororities with domestic betta splendens, the less they sound like a good idea for the fish (I know, everybody told me, but I like to do my own research and make my own determinations).  Also, not-fish-related money issues have occurred.  
 

I assume breeding this gentleman with a smaragdina female would not be advised, as I wouldn’t know if they’re pure or hybrids?

[Epiphanaea]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:37 AM, Lennie said:

You are most welcome. Anytime you need help, I can ask him. I only have personal experience with classic domesticated bettas and not wilds.

Btw, amazing color up since the day you got him. Seems like he loves your care and his tank 🥰happy boi

 

Did some more reading on smaragdina, and what I’m finding seems to indicate even wild populations could be mixed, and they’re not classified endangered, soooo . . . might give this a go after all.

If you wouldn’t mind asking your friend - how many fry would a typical spawn produce?  
 

From what I’ve read, it’s okay to keep a breeding pair together.  Can the fry be left with the parents to grow out (at least until things get crowded / the males start getting aggressive)?  

If that could work - would a 29g tall be a decent size for it?  
 

And lastly - how high can these guys jump?  Wondering if I could have a paludarium type setup if there was 8-9” of space between the top of the water and the top of the tank.

 

Thank you!!

Edited November 22, 2023 by Epiphanaea

[Lennie]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:09 PM, Epiphanaea said:

Did some more reading on smaragdina, and what I’m finding seems to indicate even wild populations could be mixed, and they’re not classified endangered, soooo . . . might give this a go after all.

If you wouldn’t mind asking your friend - how many fry would a typical spawn produce?  
 

From what I’ve read, it’s okay to keep a breeding pair together.  Can the fry be left with the parents to grow out (at least until things get crowded / the males start getting aggressive)?  

If that could work - would a 29g tall be a decent size for it?  
 

And lastly - how high can these guys jump?  Wondering if I could have a paludarium type setup if there was 8-9” of space between the top of the water and the top of the tank.

 

Thank you!!

Hello,

I asked him and another friend who also breeds a couple wild bettas.

They said the following:

In a 29g, you can try keeping a smaragdina pair. He said he keeps a pair together. However, there should be so many hiding spots for the female to hide when needed. Smaragdinas don't seem to be as peaceful as mahachai and especially imbellis are.

The pair can be kept in the tank when they spawn. But male will be quite aggressive towards the female. Male is not a big danger for the fry it seems but female is.  If you dont take the fry to grow somewhere else, he said expect 3-5 fry to survive. Creating lots of hiding spots for fry made with big tiny leaf plants like Najas guadalupensis may increase the chance of fry survival he said. Other friend said expect around 10 fry this way.

---------------------------

If you ask me, it sounds risky. I wouldn't try it myself. I wouldnt like to have a tank that female would be target of an aggression all the time.

 

Going for a paludarium would cut their swimming space a lot. It would directly eliminate the option of considering a pair in a tank.

Bettas are known to jump and I had a serious jumper betta before.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by Lennie

[Epiphanaea]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, Lennie said:

Going for a paludarium would cut their swimming space a lot. It would directly eliminate the option of considering a pair in a tank.

I should have explained this better - not making half the tank terrestrial, just having air space above the water for plants to grow out into.  A mangrove style tank, maybe I should call it?  I need to sketch this but I’m at work, LOL.
 

Thanks again for all the assistance!