Possible nutrient deficiency

[JoeQ]

I personally would look into what makes up your waters hardness which is a measurement of calcium/magnesium.  These are considered secondary plant nutrients (along with sulfates) that are often overlooked. You are supplying magnesium in the forum of Epsom salts (this also contains sulfates). You might have to start using a stronger GH booster after water changes to prevent your calcium/ magnesium ratio from being exhausted after a few days.

Edited October 15, 2023 by JoeQ

[ramsfan]

Hi @JoeQ. Thanks for your response!! In the back of my mind, I wondered if using a GH booster would be a possible step. But with a GH of 10 coming out of the tap, it's crazy to think I'd need that. However, is it possible the GH that comes out of my tap is still very deficient of calcium? I know that monte carlo loves calcium, which would explain the trouble I'm having in growing it. But again, is it possible with a GH of 10? I'd hate to have too many variables/changes going on with my tank all at once, but just thought I'd throw out my latest observation on this.

Thank you again!!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 10/14/2023 at 4:48 PM, ramsfan said:

Hey @Seattle_Aquarist. I am currently doing the routine you had recommended for my tank x 1 month. I plan on doing this for the month, but wanted to bring up something I'm still observing and wanting your (or anyone's) input. In a previous post, I talked about how after I do my 50% weekly water change, about a day or so afterwards, some of my plants (especially my monte carlo!!) tend to perk up a bit. I have noticed this for at least the last couple months. And I'm still noticing it here again with my new process of adding Epsom salt after water changes.

So to recap, on 10/6 I did a 50% water change and then dosed about 2 tsp of Epsom salt. I noticed a perk up in my monte carlo (greened up more, a bit of new growth) about 2 days later. Then as the week went on, it really started to struggle up to the day of my next water change. On 10/12, did another 50% water change and dosed 3/4 tsp Epsom salt. Again, today (10/14) noticed a perk up in my monte carlo. This is the same observation that I've had for a couple months, with the monte carlo looking poor by week's end. And I've been seeing this for awhile now even before beginning my Epsom salt dosing. Again, I'm going to finish out doing this x 1 month. But given the info here, is there anything else I'm introducing from my tap water (and my 50% water change) that would temporarily cause this perk up on monte carlo?

Thank you all again for help on this!!

Hi @ramsfan,

No, I would not recommend adding a GH Booster to your fertilizer regimen since with a dGH of 10 there should be more than sufficient calcium in your tank which you replenish with each water change.  Also, please remember we are going to judge our progress on the new leaves that have emerged since you changed your dosing to increase your magnesium level.  I believe I stated "Do not watch the existing leaves, they will not change - the damage has been done.  Instead watch the new leaves as they emerge and more importantly mature."  Also please looks at all of the plants in your tank, not just the 'Monte Carlo' and compare the newest growth with the older growth.  It's been a couple of weeks now but with faster growing species some change may be starting to show up.  -Roy

[ramsfan]

@Seattle_Aquarist I will definitely not be making any changes other than what you have suggested with the epsom salt for the next month. And I’ve been looking at all new leaf growth (especially with the AR mini) as well. I just thought it was an interesting topic to ponder on why the Monte Carlo in particular pops for a few days after a water change then looks horrible at the end of the week before a water change. Don’t see any changes yet on any new growth so far. Will keep current plan in place. Thanks again all!!! 

[JoeQ]

I second following Seattle's advice, I only know enough to just get by, where (I believe) he has a deeper understanding of plant nutrition and water chemistry.

I will say one thing tho, looking into my tap and tanks GH, what nutrients it is made of and understanding these nutrients aren't available in quantities in all in one fertilizers; made a huge difference in the growth of my tank.

[ramsfan]

Hey all. I know it hasn't been quite a month, but it's pretty close. Wanted to give an update on the results from adding Epsom salt weekly for the last 4 weekly water changes. I'll put pics below. I ended up taking out the val grass since there was no growth and was getting too much BBA on it. Also like to spot treat with Excel so figured at some point, I'd kill it off. I bought that Ca/Mg test kit you mentioned @JoeQ. Here are the results from that testing:

Tank - Ca 40 ppm, Mg 48.6 ppm

Tap water - Ca 80 ppm, Mg 24.3 ppm (obviously before adding epsom salt)

Distilled water as a control (I use this for tank top offs once weekly) - Ca 0, Mg 0

So it seems like I have decent Ca and Mg levels now in my tank.

I've positioned my wavemaker as best I can to have good flow throughout the tank. In fact, it's pushing my myrio far enough that it grows a decent amount of BBA at the base. Any ideas on how to better place my wavemaker with my tank setup to really get good flow down low? Some of my monte carlo sways, but some is so low that it really can't sway.

I've been adding Easy Green when the pH is 6.8 to 7. Still not sure this is good enough to get good usable iron in the tank for the plants.

Also starting to get a little bit more BBA as the month has gone on.

As for each plant:

Pogostemon octopus - growing a lot better

Super red - not growing much at all. Gave it a big trim a couple weeks ago to get rid of the lower half algae, and it's not doing much

Myrio mattogrossense - growing great (grew great even before Epsom salt)

Ozelet sword - not doing that well. You'll see in the pics I've lost some leaves and some current ones are yellowing

Buce - growing nicely with larger new leaves

Crypts - growing OK

-AR mini - gave it a trim and new leaves growing all right. Still kind of fizzles out after a couple weeks. Pics look better than a month ago though

-Monte carlo - perked up a bit. Getting OK slow new growth. 

Overall, some improvement in a few plants. Just not getting much of any robust growth. Any further thoughts are welcome. But here's my take at this point:

1. I believe that I may have just grown out of Easy Green. Here's what I calculated as my weekly fertilizer ppm using my current dose of Easy Green (NO3 21 ppm, PO4 1.1 ppm, K 14 ppm, Fe 0.24 ppm, Mg 1.26 ppm). Need something stronger possibly since I'd like more robust growth and more plant mass in my tank. I've really looked into the EI method over the last few weeks. May be the plan for me but I want you all to see if this could be my next step first.

2. CO2 is pretty much maxed out. I don't see a problem here. However, after figuring out ferts, I'm not opposed to raising the intensity of the light and/or getting another light for better spread throughout the tank. My back stems tend to bend into the tank a bit to "chase" the light I have more positioned towards the front of the tank

Any thoughts? Thanks again everyone!!

 

[JoeQ]

What did you think about the ca/mg test? I'm also glad to hear you are having better growth. As far as your super red I'd scatter some stems in different places. A lot of times with stems you just have to find the sweet spot where it grows best. Many times I have one steam growing great while the same stem 6" away does nothing but survive....

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:04 PM, ramsfan said:

Tank - Ca 40 ppm, Mg 48.6 ppm

More than enough.

[ramsfan]

@JoeQ I really liked the Ca/Mg test. Good recommendation. Again, not sure how accurate it is, but I think I used it in a way that gives me an idea on where I'm at with those 2 levels. Also, like your idea about moving a couple stems to different places to see if I get different growth.

@Seattle_AquaristWhat do you think about my current pics/updates and also on my possible next steps?

Thanks all!!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:47 AM, ramsfan said:

@JoeQ I really liked the Ca/Mg test. Good recommendation. Again, not sure how accurate it is, but I think I used it in a way that gives me an idea on where I'm at with those 2 levels. Also, like your idea about moving a couple stems to different places to see if I get different growth.

@Seattle_AquaristWhat do you think about my current pics/updates and also on my possible next steps?

Thanks all!!

Hi @ramsfan,

The new leaves and growth are looking healthy,.  The new leaf on the swordplant is looking a little anemic are your maintaining a good NO3 level?  More importantly  what are your thoughts on the progress to date?  -Roy

[ramsfan]

Hadn't measured NO3 before a water change in the last 2 weeks, however my Easy Green dose has stayed the same (4 pumps daily). Prior to 2 weeks ago, NO3 had been around 20-30 before water changes. Again, I think I've had some progress. The Mg was a great idea, but growth in my tank has not been robust and where I'd like it. Contemplating going EI method. Any thoughts? If so, I've read up a lot on this (interested in Nilocg dry ferts / mixing my own), but still might need a recommendation on where to start with dosing, etc.

Also, if going EI method, do I keep lights the same for a certain amount of time, then increase intensity once I get better growth? Just might need a little help with this transition IF this is the best course of action.

Thank you again @Seattle_Aquarist!!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @ramsfan

I noticed some chlorosis (yellowing) on the new growth on some of the leaves of the stems.  If you NO3 is good then I would dose additional iron.  If your NO3 is low then get it back up and see if the leaves improve.

I've done EI in the past with good results, although algae issues were more prevalent when dosing that way.  Today I use DIY root tabs in conjunction with a light EI dose once a week.  I do not adjust my light duration or intensity as the plant growth increases or decreases.  -Roy

[ramsfan]

That's interesting that you had more algae problems with using the EI method. Usually touted as a method that does not induce algae as much. I feel like with the tank I have now and want to have in the near future, I'm just chasing nutrient deficiencies. That's why I was thinking that EI is possibly the next step for me. @Seattle_Aquarist what kind of algae problems did you have using the EI method? We're you able to tinker with the nutrients here and there to keep it at bay, or was it just out of control? Just want to know more of what I'm getting into before jumping in. I know from your last post that you have more of a light EI plus root tab regimen now, but just didn't know the sequence of events that led you to your current dosing regimen. 

The idea of dosing more iron could definitely be a fix. Again, I'm dosing Easy Green probably when pH is around 6.8-7 (which is when the lights have been on for about an hour). That's usually the time I'm available to dose the tank. The pH dips down to 6.6 later on in the afternoon, but I'm not usually there. Thus I probably don't have as much available iron for plants. So looking at iron is definitely a good idea.

Thank you again for your responses and help!! You tank looks great!! That is exactly something that I'm striving for here.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @ramsfan

When I was dosing EI my biggest algae issue was Green Dust Algae (GDA) mostly on the glass sides.  Over the years I have become more of a proponent for nutrient dosing through the substrate and minimal dosing into the water column.  When researching various biotopes it seems that the water parameters in nature vary a great deal with regards to hardness and pH but there is typically very little NO3 in the water column.  That I way I tend to use calcined clay as my primary substrate because it absorbs the nutrients from the water column and makes them available to the plants in the root zone.

When I do a tear-down and re-set of my 20 gallon next time I'm going to try doing ADA Amazonia substrate and see what algae issues I encounter with an active substrate.
 -Roy

10 gallon, Safe-t-sorb, no CO2 but liquid carbon and very light EI dosing

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:01 AM, ramsfan said:

We're you able to tinker with the nutrients here and there to keep it at bay, or was it just out of control?

Nutrients do not cause algae. Unhealthy plants and a build up of soluble and insoluble organics cause a majority of algae problems. Too much light, and too much light with excessive ammonia is also a big trigger for algae. 
 

You will never starve algae, you will only kill your plants and cause more algae.

Here’s my tank some weeks ago at

30ppm NO3

10ppm PO4

40ppm K

.45 Fe as proxy 

This is near full EI levels 

[ramsfan]

I think I'd like to give EI a try. The Nilocg website has starter doses for EI and breaks them down to 20-40 gallons and 40-60 gallons. I have a 50 gal tank but around 40 gallons of water??? With my plant mass, would still going with the 40-60 gallon regimen be a good first start? Looking at increasing my plant mass as soon as I can, but just didn't know where to start. Also a few more questions:

1. Would you still dose the 3/4 tsp Epsom salt as I have before (since I won't be using any GH booster and I've seen decent results from having added it over the last month)? Or did my Ca/Mg testing results suffice for Mg ppm levels?

2. Any other suggestions from what the Nilocg website says to start?

3. It looks like the iron in CSM+B is EDTA Fe. Will I still have the same problem with iron as I'm having right now (adding it when pH may still be too high for best plant availability)? Possibly need to supplement anyway with a more available iron (ferrous gluconate)??

Sorry for the continued questions! Thanks for everyone's quick response.