Possible nutrient deficiency

[ramsfan]

I've had my current tank going since February of this year, and I am having inconsistent growth within the different plants I have. I'm not seeing a specific nutrient deficiency, but wonder if I do in fact have one. Here's some info on my tank:

 

50 gallon tank with current parameters (NH3 - 0, NO2 - 0, NO3 - 30-40, pH 7.6 before CO2 turns on, 6.6 4 hours later, KH 4, GH 10, PO4 - 0.25-0.5 (can't seem to get this higher since maybe the stratum is soaking it up??))

Pressurized CO2 with pH drop of 1 - also getting lime to lime/yellow color on drop checker halfway into photoperiod

Nilocg 24 inch CO2 reactor

Fluval 3.0 plant light (60% whites, 50% red, 2% blue). 7 hour photo period to 1 hour ramp up and 1 hour ramp down. Calculated to get about 50-60 PAR at the front of tank at the substrate. Recently had this at 70% whites, 60% red, 10% blue - but this grew too much algae.

Fluval stratum substrate with layer of Eco complete as a middle layer

Oase Biomaster 850 thermo (Seachem Matrix in all but 2 compartments - others are left empty)

Hydor Koralia nano wavemaker for a little extra flow (240 gph). Have good movement at the surface.

Glass lily pipes with surface skimmer

Fertilizer regimen - Easy Green All in One - 4 pumps daily. This has given me a nitrate level of 40 right before my weekly 50% water change. This was down from 6 pumps daily which I did up until about a month ago. Nitrates were around 80 before water change at that time so I decreased dose to 4 pumps daily

 

Community guppies, cardinal tetras, cherry shrimp, amano shrimp. The tank is not highly stocked with fish.

 

Been fighting with BBA for the last 6 months. Seems to not be spreading as much recently (see treatments below)

 

Plants / growth since I began the tank in February 2023:

Pogostemon octopus - growing OK. Not the fast heavy growth I was expecting. Just grows the spiky stuff here and there. Has not grown taller since I purchased it.

Ludwigia super red - growing very slowly (1 inch every 2-3 weeks). Easy to get a bit of algae on lower parts of plant

Myriophyllum mattogrossense - growing just fine. No problems

Ozelet green sword - growing OK. Some die off of older plant leaves. Spots of it turn yellow, then the leaf dies. Some new growth here and there, but mostly very slow

AR mini - great growth. Some leaf curling but not much

Monte Carlo - extremely slow growing. Can't seem to get this to grow very well.

Crypto lutea and beckettii - grows like it should. No issues.

2 types of buce - grows like it should. No issues

Christmas moss - grows like it should. No issues

Jungle val - does not grow at all!!! Has not gotten taller at all. Occasional new stem comes out, but extremely disappointed with this one.

 

My thoughts:

1. Easy Green does not provide calcium in it's recipe. However I don't necessarily see calcium deficiency in my tank other than occasional leaf curl with AR mini. I also have a GH of 10 since I have pretty hard water in my region. However, not sure the makeup of my hard water (mostly Mg??). One interesting point here though, when I do a 50% water change, some of my plants seem to perk up (especially monte carlo) for a day or two, then go back to not growing well again. 

2. During the summer I had to use hydrogen peroxide spot treatments and even 2 whole tank treatments to get rid of some bad BBA. Stopped doing this since I think it killed off my monte carlo too much??? Changed this over to Seachem Excel for spot treatments in which I've only done 3 recently. No whole tank treatment. No change in val growth (no melt) with this treatment. Did any of these treatments stunt the growth of my plants

3. Am I missing some micronutrient I'm not thinking of? I'm pretty sure my current dose of Easy Green is providing more than enough of the nutrients that are in the bottle.

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this. Hopefully I have enough info about my tank here. The plants in my tank are fairly easy ones to take care of. Especially with having a medium/high tech setup. Can't explain why I'm not having huge growth with all my medium to fast growers. Any help with be much appreciated!!

[Mmiller2001]

Can you take some pictures and post them?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @ramsfan

+1 on pictures would really help.  You know what they say a picture is worth 1000 words!
Thank you, -Roy

[JoeQ]

Waiting for pictures but my first instinct is MAYBE your tank has out grown Ez Green and you need something stronger. When I hit this wall it took me awhile with buying single nutrients to supplement before switching to nilocg premixed macro/micro formula with the additional GH booster on water change days (which is recommended if you don't know your calcium/magnesium ratio).

Edited October 6, 2023 by JoeQ
Add last sentence

[ramsfan]

Here's some pics of the tank. Hopefully you can all see them all right. Kind of bubbly in the tank since I did a water change earlier today. I do like the idea of dosing Easy Carbon (or the excel that I already have) after a water change. Might start doing that. Works good for spot dosing for me. Yeah, I was also thinking that Easy Green might not be enough for me given the number of plants I have and my setup. I had contemplated switching to Nilocg Thrive (or some kind of EI dosing method), but haven't fully thought it through yet. Not opposed to it though. 

I do just have 1 row of lights. I hopefully have enough light. I do have the light slightly more towards the front of the tank for the monte carlo and the AR mini. My back stem plants are reaching forward towards the light, but it's not gangly growth like you ask. Really don't want to have to get another light since when I did have it at a higher intensity, I grew more algae. I trim old plant growth often. Am due to cut the top half of the myrio and super red and plant the tops. 

If I do need to make a fertilizer change, any recommendations on something easy? Is Nilocg Thrive the next step here? If so, what dosing would you start with? I'm just not to the point yet of measuring out single nutrients and making solutions out of them.

Let me know what you all think about the pics. I really appreciate the input so far!!

 

 

[JoeQ]

👏👏👏👏 Beautiful! Nice and tidy! As for a fertilizer recommended I love love LOVE Nilocg EI micro/macro liquid premix. Which gives you the freedom of dosing more of what is necessary rather than just dosing everything at once, regardless. I have since moved on and now mix my own, but I am considering going back to premixed since DYI has me on the verge of becoming OCD over fertz! 🤣

Edited October 6, 2023 by JoeQ

[Mmiller2001]

Could be a not enough light issue. But before making any changes, I would improve flow in the lower portions of the tank. Make sure you are seeing movement in the lower sections ( plant sway). My best guess, and @Seattle_Aquaristis really knowledgeable here, but it probably is a micro issue. The tops look a bit yellow. Easy Green doesn’t have a proper micro ratio IMO. I’m sure he will give you the detailed breakdown shortly. 40ppm NO3 is definitely too high and ideally potassium should be higher than NO3. Unfortunately, Easy green keeps potassium lower and pretty low PO4.

But again, improve the flow deep in the tank first, keep up water changes and try to dose the EG when pH is at the lowest. I’m still scratching the surface on micros and the truth is, I buy Joe Harvey’s micro mix so I don’t have to fuss over them much.

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:24 PM, Pepere said:

Could you explain why this is important? First I have heard of it…

It's EDTA chelated which only makes Fe available with lower pH

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi All,

Sorry you are having some issues with your tank @ramsfan, the pictures do help.  Overall your tank looks good, and your water parameters and nutrient levels appear good as well.  I agree with @Mmiller2001 changing when you dose EG or changing to a fertilizer that has DTPA chleated iron or ferrous gluconate may help improve the uptake of iron by your plants.

I did notice one other thing that may give us a clue as to what may be holding back the plant growth.  Please take a close look at the photo below.


Looking at the new growth as it emerges (#1) it looks healthy, with good color, and the leaves are flat and well formed.  As the leaves mature and they become older (#2) they lose the vibrant color becoming yellow-green and endemic looking.  In some cases the leaf margins (edges) of mature leaves are turning downward (cupping).  Lastly, the mature leaves are dropping off (#3) leaving just the bare stem.  All three symptoms above are an indication of insufficient available magnesium.  Yes, you have a good water hardness (10 dGH) but it is very likely that most if not all of that hardness is the result of calcium (Ca) rather than magnesium (Mg).  Ideally I attempt to maintain a calcium to magnesium ratio (Ca:Mg) of 3:1 - 4:1 in my tanks.

If this were my tank before I started fooling with my lighting parameters or CO2 levels I would follow the suggestion regarding iron (Fe) and try adding some additional magnesium to your tank.  The easiest way to add magnesium is by adding magnesium sulfate (MgSO4*7H2O / Epsom Salt) to your tank.  Go to your local drugstore or grocery and pick up some Epsom Salt.  Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives or scents.

The next weekly water change do everything as you have been but add 3/8 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of tank volume (in your case about 2 teaspoons).  Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add 3/8 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of new water added (i.e. if you remove 20 gallons and add 20 gallons of new water add 6/8 {3/4} teaspoon of Epsom Salt).  Do this for one month.

Now for the hard part................waiting.  Do not watch the existing leaves, they will not change - the damage has been done.  Instead watch the new leaves as they emerge and more importantly mature.  The new leaves should look as good or better than the new growth today.  The new leaves may be larger and they should emerge more quickly.  As the new growth matures it should maintain good color and the margins should not 'cup'.  Lastly the premature loss of older leaves should diminish or cease altogether.

Why did I think the issue is magnesium related?  Magnesium is a mobile secondary nutrient that is necessary for good photosynthesis and growth.  A 'mobile nutrient' is a nutrient that a plant can move from one area of the plant (older leaves) to another are where it is needed (new growth) when there is insufficient levels available in the water column or substrate.  That is why the leaves become more 'sickly' looking as they mature and eventually fall off altogether.

Hope this helps! -Roy

[ramsfan]

Thanks to everyone for their responses so far. And thank you @Seattle_Aquarist for the in depth answer. I will definitely try adding some magnesium in the way you suggest for the next month. Have some Epsom salt already at home and will be doing this shortly. Also an interesting idea about when to add the fertilizer (thus when to add the iron). I usually add my fertilizer after the CO2 has been running for about 3 hours. I haven't measured what my pH drop is exactly at the 3 hour mark, but it has to be less than 7.0 at that point if I usually get to 6.6 by 4 hours after CO2 turns on. Does anyone see a iron deficiency in my tank as well in that I need to wait longer for my pH to drop so I have more available Fe in the water column when I fertilize?

@Pepere to answer your question about my Easy Green dosing, I dose 4 pumps daily. This has kept me around a NO3 level of 30-40 all days of the week pretty much. Have been messing with this dosing for a while to be able to find this happy medium. I'm interested to talk more about your lighting comments though. Again, I had bumped up my Fluval light to 70% whites, 60% red, 10% blue, but I had a significant algae increase when I did that. Also did not get much different growth in my plants. And the algae seemed to calm down a bit once I went back to 60/50/2. Also like Bentley Pascoe's presentation on the Fluval light and his light intensity recommendations to reduce algae growth (leaving blue < 5%). Again, always up for recommendations on how my lights are done on this tank. This was just my experience over the last few months.

@Mmiller2001 - Thanks for the reminder on good flow at the lower portion of the tank. I can't really see my monte carlo moving, but I do see a gently sway in my AR mini and crypts. I'd like to think I have decent circular flow with my lily pipes on one end and the wavemaker at the other end of the tank. Hate to have too much more flow because since I added the wavemaker, I've tried to put that thing in a bunch of different places in the tank so as to not "knock over" some of my stems in the back. I've seen an uptick in BBA on the areas of my stems that the wavemaker hits a bit more than other areas. 

Thanks again to everyone for your help!!!

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:53 AM, Pepere said:

Just a point of curiosity, is it practical to test that thought with home tests to confirm the deficiency?

A water report, in most cases, will have the Ca and Mg listed.

[JoeQ]

If not here is a cheap "good enough" test kit. Many counties (such as mine) do not include the calcium/magnesium statistics.

https://www.amazon.com/Monitor-Calcium-Magnesium-Salinity-Tests/dp/B096V9J9JP/ref=mp_s_a_1_4_pp?crid=2QESS5YUPV0OM&keywords=calcium+test+kit&qid=1696685844&sprefix=Calcium+test%2Caps%2C96&sr=8-4

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 7:41 AM, JoeQ said:

If not here is a cheap "good enough" test kit. Many counties (such as mine) do not include the calcium/magnesium statistics.

https://www.amazon.com/Monitor-Calcium-Magnesium-Salinity-Tests/dp/B096V9J9JP/ref=mp_s_a_1_4_pp?crid=2QESS5YUPV0OM&keywords=calcium+test+kit&qid=1696685844&sprefix=Calcium+test%2Caps%2C96&sr=8-4

Nice! Never seen this.

[JoeQ]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:42 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Nice! Never seen this.

I believe I PMed you about it but never reported back. It's good enough as in it gives you an idea of what your gh is made up of but the threshold of magnesium is 12ppm then jumps to 24ppm (i believe) which is too high of a threshold IMO. Ideally I'd like it to be half that and then jump to 12ppm

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:00 AM, JoeQ said:

I believe I PMed you about it but never reported back. It's good enough as in it gives you an idea of what your gh is made up of but the threshold of magnesium is 12ppm then jumps to 24ppm (i believe) which is too high of a threshold IMO. Ideally I'd like it to be half that and then jump to 12ppm

My brain these days....Could you double the water sample volume to increase resolution? I do this with my KH test kit at times

[Mmiller2001]

@ramsfan

If you are interested, and when you get into CO2, knowing the numbers is really helpful. Here's my tank and the numbers.

This is Easy Green per pump in 10 gallons. Notice the Micro's versus mine (2 are missing from EG).

Here's my tank a few weeks ago.

Ca 24ppm

Mg 8ppm

NO3 30ppm

PO4 10ppm

K 40ppm

Micros ( reported per dose and I dose 3 times a week)

Fe DTPA - .12 ppm
Fe gluc - .03 ppm
Mn - .025 ppm
B - .023 ppm
Zn - .02 ppm
Cu - .0021 ppm
Mo - .001 ppm
Ni - .00011 ppm

 

[JoeQ]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:05 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

My brain these days....Could you double the water sample volume to increase resolution? I do this with my KH test kit at times

I am not sure, I haven't really played with it other than finding the make up of my water (which is mostly calcium). Then my lazy butt got gh booster and called it a day!

[ramsfan]

Your tank is gorgeous @Mmiller2001!! Again, the only fertilizer regimen I've known so far is just dosing Easy Green. So are you doing the EI method? When you say you're doing:

Ca 24ppm

Mg 8ppm

NO3 30ppm

PO4 10ppm

K 40ppm

Micros ( reported per dose and I dose 3 times a week)

Fe DTPA - .12 ppm
Fe gluc - .03 ppm
Mn - .025 ppm
B - .023 ppm
Zn - .02 ppm
Cu - .0021 ppm
Mo - .001 ppm
Ni - .00011 ppm

How are you attaining these parameters? What products do you use? And do you start with RO water or do you use tap water? Again, I'm going to add Epsom salt to my current regimen to see if this helps, but it does look like I may ultimately need to go a stronger route soon. Just getting some education on this in case that's what I need to do. Again, tank is amazing!!! Would love that look some day!

[Mmiller2001]

Thank you!

Unfortunately my tap water has higher GH (10dGH) and KH (7dKH) and has a TDS near 300ppm. As I shifted my interest into Dutch style aquariums I kept having problems. I fell in love with a tank run by Gregg Zydeck and quickly became a huge fan boy. He also keeps a journal and as I read it, it was clear my tap water was the problem. So I indeed use RO/DI water now.

All I use is powder fertilizers and sometime a KH source. I'm currently not adding KH and KH in the tank is near 0. All I use is CaSO4, MgSO4, KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4. I buy my Micro mix from Joe Harvey and he is near bringing his mix to market. The Macro powders are real cheap and the micro mix is affordable.

I use rotalabutterfly to determine how much of each I need and weigh it out for the RO water. You can make your own fertilizer solution but I find it easier to just weigh the powders and dump them in. I have gone to great lengths to simplify water change day and have a few pumps to drain and to fill. 

I no longer test the tank so I save money there. With RO, it's easy to know the numbers because you set them and manage them with water changes.

Going this route eliminates any mystery with water. When problems appear, I know it's either CO2, light or lack of maintenance problems.

I will add...I'm very jealous of those with soft water out of the tap. I wish I lived in those areas. Running the RO unit is the most expensive part of this tank long term.

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:47 AM, Pepere said:

“If wishes were horses all beggars would ride….”

I suspect RO water is cheaper than the cost of moving…

I LOL'd....TRUTH!

[ramsfan]

My water out of the tap is about the same as yours. Any suggestions for someone with those tap water parameters?

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:53 AM, ramsfan said:

My water out of the tap is about the same as yours. Any suggestions for someone with those tap water parameters?

Dennis Wong, the 2HrAquarist does them well.

[JoeQ]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:30 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

I buy my Micro mix from Joe Harvey and he is near bringing his mix to market.

Let me know when he does, I'm sure by then I will be able to come up with a plausible excuse as to why I NEED more dry fertilizer(s) 🤣

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:01 PM, JoeQ said:

Let me know when he does, I'm sure by then I will be able to come up with a plausible excuse as to why I NEED more dry fertilizer(s) 🤣

Will do.

[ramsfan]

Hey @Seattle_Aquarist. I am currently doing the routine you had recommended for my tank x 1 month. I plan on doing this for the month, but wanted to bring up something I'm still observing and wanting your (or anyone's) input. In a previous post, I talked about how after I do my 50% weekly water change, about a day or so afterwards, some of my plants (especially my monte carlo!!) tend to perk up a bit. I have noticed this for at least the last couple months. And I'm still noticing it here again with my new process of adding Epsom salt after water changes.

So to recap, on 10/6 I did a 50% water change and then dosed about 2 tsp of Epsom salt. I noticed a perk up in my monte carlo (greened up more, a bit of new growth) about 2 days later. Then as the week went on, it really started to struggle up to the day of my next water change. On 10/12, did another 50% water change and dosed 3/4 tsp Epsom salt. Again, today (10/14) noticed a perk up in my monte carlo. This is the same observation that I've had for a couple months, with the monte carlo looking poor by week's end. And I've been seeing this for awhile now even before beginning my Epsom salt dosing. Again, I'm going to finish out doing this x 1 month. But given the info here, is there anything else I'm introducing from my tap water (and my 50% water change) that would temporarily cause this perk up on monte carlo?

Thank you all again for help on this!!