Raising Angelfish Fry

[Bettabythedozen]

Any warnings , lessons and tips would be greatly appreciated! This is our first successful batch of wigglers . They will be upgrading to a 29g temporary grow out. Bare bottom or thin sand layer ? I know prevention of biofilm and bacteria accumulation is essential so I planned on doing sand like I did for my Cory cats. Dark water and warmer parameters. I have Hikari first bites but was warned live is better , what do you feed your fry ? Any help or advice is greatly appreciated 🐠

[Fish Folk]

My son made these videos a few years ago. Hope this info helps! Glad to answer any questions...

 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I also breed a fair amount of Angels. They’re my bread and butter when it comes to selling to the LFS for store credit. 
 

I do first bites for a few days in the morning and night after they’ve absorbed their yolk sac. Then, first bites in the morning and baby brine shrimp at night. I hatch a tablespoon of eggs and freeze the majority of the hatch to use the following week. Live is great, but frozen works awesome too, in my opinion.
 

Then, I switch to crushed flake in the morning and baby brine shrimp at night. Then, Xtreme Nano in the morning and baby brine shrimp at night. 
 

Hit me up if you have any questions! I also put together a pretty extensive thread of how I raise angels at one point on here. Seriously, send me a message if you need any help!! Happy to assist!

I found the link to the post I made!

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by AllFishNoBrakes

[Ken Burke]

I found Easy Fry Food by ACO worked well.  I’ve only managed to raise two clutches, once by pulling eggs, once with parents. Both times there was a fair buildup of gunk on the bottom of their tank.  Bare bottom may help with that, but be extra careful of the fry when cleaning.  The fry may hide in the fluffy stuff at the bottom….

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:41 PM, Fish Folk said:

My son made these videos a few years ago. Hope this info helps! Glad to answer any questions...

 

I could really use your help, there are quite a few eggs turning white now … I’m planning to upgrade to a 29g but it’s not properly setup the way I like and has no tannins as of yet. I can add the 2.5g of water from the hatchery to help. Would it be worth the risk upgrading them ASAP to get them off the leaf. I don’t want them free swimming in the hatchery as it will be too hard to catch them all. We’ve never had success so I set up the 2.5 with subpar expectations. Would a water change do enough in the 2.5 to protect them , or should I risk it and slowly acclimate to the new tank 

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:11 AM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

I also breed a fair amount of Angels. They’re my bread and butter when it comes to selling to the LFS for store credit. 
 

I do first bites for a few days in the morning and night after they’ve absorbed their yolk sac. Then, first bites in the morning and baby brine shrimp at night. I hatch a tablespoon of eggs and freeze the majority of the hatch to use the following week. Live is great, but frozen works awesome too, in my opinion.
 

Then, I switch to crushed flake in the morning and baby brine shrimp at night. Then, Xtreme Nano in the morning and baby brine shrimp at night. 
 

Hit me up if you have any questions! I also put together a pretty extensive thread of how I raise angels at one point on here. Seriously, send me a message if you need any help!! Happy to assist!

I found the link to the post I made!

 

Just sent you a message, hoping you could help! Thank you so much in advance 

[Fish Folk]

I’d just use a syringe with an air line piece on the end to suck off the infertile / fungussed-over white eggs. Fry can do fine in a 2.5 gal. For weeks.

Those brown eggs will begin to wiggle. Then they’ll fall off the leaf. You’ll think they’re all dead, but WAIT FOR IT. They will turn into tiny free-swimmers up near the top. Don’t do anything radical.

You need proper food ready _after_ they begin to free-swim. What are you going to feed them?

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:20 AM, Fish Folk said:

I’d just use a syringe with an air line piece on the end to suck off the infertile / fungussed-over white eggs. Fry can do fine in a 2.5 gal. For weeks.

Those brown eggs will begin to wiggle. Then they’ll fall off the leaf. You’ll think they’re all dead, but WAIT FOR IT. They will turn into tiny free-swimmers up near the top. Don’t do anything radical.

You need proper food ready _after_ they begin to free-swim. What are you going to feed them?

I think there was some confusion. I posted about 20 hours after wiggling! Brine shrimp will be in today that’s the soonest I could get it. I do have Hikari first bites. 

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:20 AM, Fish Folk said:

I’d just use a syringe with an air line piece on the end to suck off the infertile / fungussed-over white eggs. Fry can do fine in a 2.5 gal. For weeks.

Those brown eggs will begin to wiggle. Then they’ll fall off the leaf. You’ll think they’re all dead, but WAIT FOR IT. They will turn into tiny free-swimmers up near the top. Don’t do anything radical.

You need proper food ready _after_ they begin to free-swim. What are you going to feed them?

I’m VERY apprehensive about the 2.5 a baby that fell of during cleaning died after falling to the sponge filter , it is white so it is definitely dead. The fungus is spreading. I cannot remove it with a syringe I even tried scraping. It is not a great method and is harming the viable babies. After seeing the one I knew broke free die I am even more worried about the 2.5. 

[Fish Folk]

Can you upload a video to YouTube and link here? Just trying to fully envision what you are concerned about.

For perspective… in the wild, tons of fry die. The strong survive. I always have some fry die-off. That’s normal. It is why egg layers spawn hundreds. Strategically, sometimes a few dozen is a great yield.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Fish Folk

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:20 AM, Fish Folk said:

I’d just use a syringe with an air line piece on the end to suck off the infertile / fungussed-over white eggs. Fry can do fine in a 2.5 gal. For weeks.

Those brown eggs will begin to wiggle. Then they’ll fall off the leaf. You’ll think they’re all dead, but WAIT FOR IT. They will turn into tiny free-swimmers up near the top. Don’t do anything radical.

You need proper food ready _after_ they begin to free-swim. What are you going to feed them?

I don’t have a YouTube account but here is a decent picture 

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:21 AM, Fish Folk said:

Can you upload a video to YouTube and link here? Just trying to fully envision what you are concerned about.

For perspective… in the wild, tons of fry die. The strong survive. I always have some fry die-off. That’s normal. It is why egg layers spawn hundreds. Strategically, sometimes a few dozen is a great yield.

the one that have fallen are not moving or wiggling. The one that was wiggling that fell last night is absolutely gone. Im so apprehensive to let them go off of the leaf in this tank as it’s already proving to be risky! I don’t know how else to get them away from the fungus *I have tried removing the white eggs but they are too clustered together and formed to the leaf* I am harming more wigglers than the fuzzy eggs by trying! Can I add anything other than methalyne blue with wigglers ? I do not have MB & believe it is dangerous for humans ! 

[Fish Folk]

Having done this a bunch of times, you can suck the white eggs off, nudging the fungussed eggs. You will be surprised how many fry survive.

Here is a video of our BBS hatching / feeding setup…

Here is how I raise fry now. This may be useful in the future…

 

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:28 AM, Fish Folk said:

Having done this a bunch of times, you can suck the white eggs off, nudging the fungussed eggs. You will be surprised how many fry survive.

I did try and got quite a few wigglers in the process. I’m trying the few wigglers in the 29 to see how they do , I would prefer them in the 29 as it’s a more sterile environment.. I understand feeding needs to be very intentional in that case to make sure all fry have an opportunity to hunt 

[Fish Folk]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:31 AM, Bettabythedozen said:

I did try and got quite a few wigglers in the process. I’m trying the few wigglers in the 29 to see how they do , I would prefer them in the 29 as it’s a more sterile environment.. I understand feeding needs to be very intentional in that case to make sure all fry have an opportunity to hunt 

If I were doing new fry in a 29 gal, I’d be careful that they don’t die for lack of available food. But overfeeding can be deadly it’s a two-edged sword…

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:36 AM, Fish Folk said:

If I were doing new fry in a 29 gal, I’d be careful that they don’t die for lack of available food. But overfeeding can be deadly it’s a two-edged sword…

I get it , I just hate seeing such a fail rate in the 2.5 I’m concerned it’s not sterile enough. It has substrate aswell and didn’t think that was good for them whereas the 29 is bare bottom. 

Do you think me making one of your tray set ups for the 29 would help , or would the tank change be a concern of shocking them. They get water from the 29 and the 29 has established water / media 

[Fish Folk]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:52 AM, Bettabythedozen said:

I get it , I just hate seeing such a fail rate in the 2.5 I’m concerned it’s not sterile enough. It has substrate aswell and didn’t think that was good for them whereas the 29 is bare bottom. 

Do you think me making one of your tray set ups for the 29 would help , or would the tank change be a concern of shocking them. They get water from the 29 and the 29 has established water / media 

For me personally, I'd try not to put all of my "eggs in one basket" so to speak. There are risks both ways at this point. I'd probably just leave the fry in the 2.5 gal. Once they're wrigglers, they rarely succumb to normal egg fungus -- unless you have a heavy, heavy infestation. What I'm seeing is pretty standard. I do not feed wrigglers until they are free-swimming. I also do not give up on them / suck them out unless they clearly fungus over.

You can probably shake the remaining wrigglers off the leaf, and remove the leaf and white funguses-over eggs now.

Fry are tiny balls of complex chems / salts. They open up, and are pretty good at surviving from their yolk sacs for a day or more once free swimming.

You could try some one way, some another. But there seem to be concerns both ways. Unless I could really look at your set up, I wouldn't want to rule out the 2.5 gal setup. Honestly, that sounds like it might work fine. You'll learn that breeding is a bit of trial-and-error at first. Fortunately, you have a healthy pair of brooders. You'll have more eggs in a month or so. Experiment with this one and you'll be better prepared next time around. Angels spawn on slate pieces very readily. IF you're feeding them some live foods, and meaty offerings, the female will develop roe quickly again.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Fish Folk

[Bettabythedozen]

I really do appreciate it ! Thank you so much for your help! 

[RadMax8]

To help limit fungus issues in the future, I've heard that you can put a couple cherry shrimp in with the eggs and they will eat the eggs with fungus, but not the viable eggs. Might be worth a shot if you're going to separate the eggs from the parents. Plus, the shrimp can help keep the tank a bit cleaner in general.

Good luck!

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:01 AM, Fish Folk said:

For me personally, I'd try not to put all of my "eggs in one basket" so to speak. There are risks both ways at this point. I'd probably just leave the fry in the 2.5 gal. Once they're wrigglers, they rarely succumb to normal egg fungus -- unless you have a heavy, heavy infestation. What I'm seeing is pretty standard. I do not feed wrigglers until they are free-swimming. I also do not give up on them / suck them out unless they clearly fungus over.

You can probably shake the remaining wrigglers off the leaf, and remove the leaf and white funguses-over eggs now.

Fry are tiny balls of complex chems / salts. They open up, and are pretty good at surviving from their yolk sacs for a day or more once free swimming.

You could try some one way, some another. But there seem to be concerns both ways. Unless I could really look at your set up, I wouldn't want to rule out the 2.5 gal setup. Honestly, that sounds like it might work fine. You'll learn that breeding is a bit of trial-and-error at first. Fortunately, you have a healthy pair of brooders. You'll have more eggs in a month or so. Experiment with this one and you'll be better prepared next time around. Angels spawn on slate pieces very readily. IF you're feeding them some live foods, and meaty offerings, the female will develop roe quickly again.

Question about feeding fry when they’re free swimming! We have our first swimmer lol, do you wait until most are hatched ? I also see egg sack still should I wait until the sack looks smaller ? 

[Fish Folk]

On 9/23/2023 at 6:58 PM, Bettabythedozen said:

Question about feeding fry when they’re free swimming! We have our first swimmer lol, do you wait until most are hatched ? I also see egg sack still should I wait until the sack looks smaller ? 

Congrats! _wait_

When you feed, feed tiny amounts multiple times a day. Imagine how small their stomachs are. You do _NOT_ want to overfeed.

[Bettabythedozen]

Thank you so much for your response & reassurance!!

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:41 PM, Fish Folk said:

My son made these videos a few years ago. Hope this info helps! Glad to answer any questions...

 

What do you think about raising 2 batches a week apart together? I just worry the older babies may go after the wigglers since they’re decent hunters but would love to be able to optimize space 

[Fish Folk]

On 9/28/2023 at 10:17 PM, Bettabythedozen said:

What do you think about raising 2 batches a week apart together? I just worry the older babies may go after the wigglers since they’re decent hunters but would love to be able to optimize space 

You are on a learning curve. Here is what you'll likely discover: you can sell a bunch of these for awhile, 3-6 months from now. But unless you've mastered shipping and selling online, you'll be overrun . . . will have bought many small, or several large tanks to deal with your grow out issues, and that will pretty much have zeroed out your margin of profit. Angelfish are nice once in a while, but hundreds and hundreds can be very hard to move along. Additionally, the conditions they'll need to stay in will become rather brutally high in nitrates because of the volume of grow out juveniles. Once those fish hit the water of a LFS, they'll crash. Additionally, your brooders will continue to breed unless you prevent it. This is the learning curve for every angelfish breeder. Every. single. time. I've watched this story unfold a lot.

So, my recommendation is STOP the breeding until you can get a handle on the entire process, and have a very solid plan for everything from grow-outs to selling.

As for your question, you'll find that there will always be "runners" who grow faster than siblings. The danger they'll pose to juveniles whose fins have not opened up all the way is serious. "If it can fit in the mouth, it will eventually go in the mouth" applies to all fish. Always. But honestly, you can probably get away with it because of how small they are, and how non-agrgessive they are in a huge colony / school.

Here's the last of our Koi Angel fry just before we sold them off to our LFS. I was _so_ happy to be done with them...

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Fish Folk

[Bettabythedozen]

On 9/28/2023 at 10:47 PM, Fish Folk said:

You are on a learning curve. Here is what you'll likely discover: you can sell a bunch of these for awhile, 3-6 months from now. But unless you've mastered shipping and selling online, you'll be overrun . . . will have bought many small, or several large tanks to deal with your grow out issues, and that will pretty much have zeroed out your margin of profit. Angelfish are nice once in a while, but hundreds and hundreds can be very hard to move along. Additionally, the conditions they'll need to stay in will become rather brutally high in nitrates because of the volume of grow out juveniles. Once those fish hit the water of a LFS, they'll crash. Additionally, your brooders will continue to breed unless you prevent it. This is the learning curve for every angelfish breeder. Every. single. time. I've watched this story unfold a lot.

So, my recommendation is STOP the breeding until you can get a handle on the entire process, and have a very solid plan for everything from grow-outs to selling.

As for your question, you'll find that there will always be "runners" who grow faster than siblings. The danger they'll pose to juveniles whose fins have not opened up all the way is serious. "If it can fit in the mouth, it will eventually go in the mouth" applies to all fish. Always. But honestly, you can probably get away with it because of how small they are, and how non-agrgessive they are in a huge colony / school.

Here's the last of our Koi Angel fry just before we sold them off to our LFS. I was _so_ happy to be done with them...

 

Definitely keeping that in mind , also keeping in mind this is our FIRST TIME raising angelfish fry , but not fry in general! I just like to ask questions and do extensive research before doing anything, I have always been a worry wort especially when it comes to my animals! Most breeders reported a survival rate of only 30%… 80% for more experienced breeders. I’m definitely keeping odds in my favor! The last batch was of unknown genetics whereas this will be our first true line. I also have atleast 2-3 store fronts waiting, I’ve been personally selling and donating fish and entire tank set ups to the community for quite some time. I’m a teacher and set up tanks for other classrooms , I help maintain them and teach about animal care! I have dozens of local aquatic hobbyists waiting for babes and getting the licensing and registration to sell these guys for real!! I’ve worked with aquatic plants and live bearers then worked aquatic retail to get my name out in the community! I also have extensive experience shipping and have the capability to print labels from home with immediate pick up from postal services ! I appreciate the caution and it’s definitely something we’ve kept in mind , even leaving partial batches for the parents so they don’t go on full rampages after removing the eggs lol. Your fry are beautiful! I enjoy the process of raising , breeding and selling fish. I run an aquatic rehabilitation and rescue with over 20  active tanks in 2 locations !