UGF questions, please advise.

[KittenFishMom]

Sorry this post is so long, but it is a rather complicated problem due to a complicated design. The glass "ponds" won't have anything but water in them so light can shine up through the bottom of the tank to light the plants and fish from underneath, the way moon lit ponds light the under side of tress)

I am planning a sump for my 55 tank, but being a "belt and suspender" sort, I thought I would try to work as much UGF in around my glued in place glass "ponds" to help with the health of the talk. I found a UGF online with small plates that fit together nicely around my "ponds". The problem is that the plates only came with only one uplift tube. I was also able to get a Penn-Plax UGF plate in there, which has an uplift tube. This plate causes the other plates to be in 2 sections. I add some photos below.

Given the tank is 4 feet long. I don't think one uplift tube would be able to handle the whole job. I have order some more uplift tube with a different vendor name, but I think they are the same thing. (One is feneci, the other is XMHF) The other problem with the additional uplift tubes is they won't arrive until Sept 14-19. That is a minimum of 2 weeks, when I had hoped to pour substrate today.

I need to know if having the plates in place with out any uplift tubes (I believe this is called a plenum ) is good for the tank, or if it is apt to cause problems. Also I would like to get a feel for the benefit of waiting 2 plus weeks to set up the tank to get the extra uplift tubes vs taking the plates out of that area of the tank. I wanted to avoid a sponge filter because I am already working around the "ponds".

Front left of tank:

Front right of tank with black UGF without uplift tube:

Top view left of tank:

Top view right of tank with section of black UGF without uplift tube:

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by KittenFishMom
added photos

[BF McUmber]

I have been looking into these and other UGF quite a bit because I want to do them in my next tank. I have been working under the assumption that I'm going to put the UGF on half of the tank and let the other half collect mulm for more permanent plants. With the placement of your ponds I was wondering if you could employ a similar approach and only encompass the right most pond with the black modular plates with two lift stacks? 

I think I would want my uplift tube for my left plate to be on the left side of the pond. I think having my entire flow going through the end of one of the plates would be not the best. I would probably also take one of the plates and cut it on an angle to fill in the gap where the tank angles, again just to allow for more places for things to collect. 

I don't think I would think about the water trapped under the plate that does not have a uplift tube any more than I would think about the water trapped in decorations. I would probably be more concerned about actually getting the new tube in when it comes. 

Is the uplift tube that came with the feneci large enough to get an Ziss air stone in it? 

 

[KittenFishMom]

@BF McUmber HI, They way I understand UGF is that they suck mum and O2 and other good things from the water column into the gravel and plants do much better over UGF. So much so that the roots tend to clog the UGF space. I would think you would want your plant near the edge of the UGF, not on the other side of the tank. But then again, I am new at this, so maybe you don't want your plant in the way so you can do maintenance on the UGF.  I game plan is for the plants to benefit from the UGF and by the time the UG needs maintenance, I'll have my sump in full swing with the UGF as secondary. But who knows, I could have it all wrong.

Instead of an air stone, I am using @Tommy Vercetti jet lifters to make sure there is extra flow through the UGF. I have to stop the air when I feed the fish or the food gets sucked into the gravel faster than the fish can catch it. Tommy and I work together to make jet lifters that fit the 1 inch tube on the Lee's UGF. I'm hoping it will also fit the Penn-Plax 1 inch tubes. We are going to work together to make some that fit the tubes for the modular black plates you see in the tank. their uplift tube is much higher, and teamed with the jet lifter, should really help the flow in the black plates. To use the jet lifters, I cut about a 2 inch piece of the tube that goes in the adjuster, then put the jet lifter on, then the rest of the cut tube. He has even made airline clips and a plug for the top of the tube. 

I'm filling gallon jugs with RO water, so every 6 minutes I have to jump up and change the bottle. Please excuse the choppiness of this post.

Where I had to cut a plate for the UGF in my half cylinder tank, I cut a stiff piece of filter media sponge and put it across the opening to keep gravel and such out from under the UGF plate. If you get gravel under the plate is slows the flow and everything clogs sooner.

I have decided to wait until the new tubes and new jet lifters come before I add anything to the tank. Jumping over bucks of plants and maintaining QT tanks all over the living room has already gotten old, but such is life at times.

[BF McUmber]

From what I have read a plant can definitely benefit from being in/above an under gravel filter, I do not think you are wrong there. I am going to try it as a partial UGF for cleaning purposes. I'm going to follow a similar approach that "Fishman" does on youtube. 

[madmark285]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:47 PM, KittenFishMom said:

They way I understand UGF is that they suck mum and O2 and other good things from the water column into the gravel

What i remember from the old days, there would be tons of  crap in the gravel and even under the plates. So I believe you are correct.

 

On 8/31/2023 at 9:47 PM, KittenFishMom said:

I'll have my sump in full swing

Or you buying or building your own sump? I finally got my sump running for the barbs new home, a 40 gallon breeder tank. I call it the T-34. Here is a picture:

 

To eliminate the waterfall, I sloped the wall where the water exits the filter section to reduce noise. So I named it after the Soviet tank from WW2, it had sloped armor 🙂

This sump is still too complicated. When I rebuild my sump for my 75 gallon tank, it will have 4 filter socks and a fluidized bed bio filter, that's it.

 

[KittenFishMom]

@madmark285 I am buy parts and putting them together. My husband calls 1/4ed chickens "chicken kits" and complain that they never include the needed feathers. I don't know what my "sump kit" will be missing. I chickened out and bought an expensive siphon with a built in restart vacuum. I bought a 10 gallon kit of a some walls and a sock hanger. I bought some socks. Need to research pumps. I have a few, but am not sure they will be right. Then I need to do the math etc so the siphon doesn't out pace the pump and the sump overflows and the pump doesn't outpace the siphon and the tank overflows. I also want the power out/restores to be graceful. This project should keep my too busy to get introuble, except for sump troubles.

[madmark285]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:57 PM, KittenFishMom said:

Then I need to do the math etc so the siphon doesn't out pace the pump and the sump overflows and the pump doesn't outpace the siphon and the tank overflows.

You cannot exactly match the flow rate of a full siphon and water pump. The flow rate of the siphon should far exceed the flow rate of your water pump, your tank should never overflow. To be safe, most sumps system have 2 drain lines just in case on become plugged.  FYI, for a 1" PVC pipe, the full siphon flow rate is ~800 gph. For siphons, the flow rate increases as the height increases ie: the opposite of water pumps. 

To prevent the sump from overflowing, you need to use an overflow box. This is not optional. When the water level in the aquarium drops to a certain level, the water flow stops.

Now this means your siphon drain is constantly stopping and restarting and will turn into a gurgling monster. To make a quiet system, you need a Herbie drain system. I learned this the hard way and had to rip out the plumbing and start over. Here is a picture:

To make this system work, you need a gate value. Once again I learn the hard way and use a cheap ball value which didn't work very well. With a gate value, you can tune the system where the siphon flow rate exactly matches the water pump. This is so easy to do with a gate value. 

My apologies if I am coming across as an expert, I am not. I just did everything wrong and did not listen to the experts.

 

[madmark285]

One more on sump system. My plan was to do a write up on my T-34 sump but once again, I screwed up. First, here is a side view of my sump:

 

I just used 4" thin wall PVC pipe for my filter socks, this worked perfectly. The red pipe is the main siphon drain, the other pipe is  the emergency drain for the Herbie system. By using 4" pipe for the filter socks, I can combine the fluidized bed and the filter socks in one chamber. This saves space for the reservoir section and was cheap to build, the 4" PVC pipe cost $20 and is 10' long. 

Where I screwed up, the fluidized bed/filter sock chamber should have been bigger. Here is a top view:

 

A truly brain dead decision,  the primary bio filter for this sump was going to use SeaChem Matrix and foam filter in the filter box shown above. I vastly underestimated how much this would back up the water, it just overflowed the filter box and went directly into the reservoir section. But the big screw up was, I don't need the filter box.  The sump has a fluidized bed for bio filter. And finally, look at this top view closely:

Instead of the elebrate wall system I built, I should have just glue in another piece of 4" PVC pipe between the filter sock pipes. To reduce splashing noise, put plastic scrub pads in this pipe. This would have been so easy to build if you can cut 4" PVC pipe, let the pipes create the walls.

So if I could do this over, I would have just used 3 pieces of 4" PVC pipes.

My opinion, a fluidized bed filter with filter socks is the ultimate filter for aquariums. The fluidized bed is maintenance free and just toss the filter socks in the washing machine with a little bleach, they will come up perfectly clean.

I strongly suggest that you use a 20 gallon tank for your sump. The reservoir section on my sump can hold ~11 gallons of water. For water changes, I can just drain the reservoir section and fill it with cold water directly from the tap. I just let it sit for a hour or so and let the heater warm it up.  I put the heater in a small coffin like box just in case I forget to unplug it. But once again, this is so easy to maintain. 

Anyways, I hope this is helpful. Going to a wedding, will be back in a couple days. 

[Odd Duck]

I’m no expert on sumps or UGF’s but I have a question for you, @KittenFishMom.  What exactly are the pools for and why don’t you just set the containers on top of the UGF’s directly and fill in your substrate around them?

[KittenFishMom]

@Odd DuckThe "ponds" are lit from below the bottom of the tank. The are suppose to look like moon lit ponds when all the other lights are out. You see the under side of the plants and fish that swim over them and the silhouettes fish as they swim by. It is even more relaxing to watch than the fish in day light. The UGF plate would block the light from below the tank if I put the ponds on top of the plates. I had it set up, but never got any good photos to post.  It is magical looking with white lights and even more magical looking when the lights are set to drift from one color to the next. The hill stream loaches love going up and down and round and round in the ponds, which is fun to watch day or night. I only set it up with the "moon light when I have time ti sit and watch the tanks after "lights out". usually only 20 minutes or so now and then, not every night. It was just a fun idea. I have air stones in the 2 deeper "ponds" to keep the water moving and for a cool visual effect.

[Odd Duck]

Ah!  Now I see what you’re going for.  Makes perfect sense now.

Nothing brilliant to add for you but I would agree to make certain that each section of plates has an uplift tube, which it sounds like that’s what you’re aiming for already.

[KittenFishMom]

@Odd Duck yes I am waiting for them to arrive. there will be 5, so I could have a forest of them in the tank. I might plant a bit of val in front of each one to hide them a bit. I'm not sure I will use all 5.

[Tanked]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:16 AM, KittenFishMom said:

@Odd DuckThe "ponds" are lit from below the bottom of the tank. The are suppose to look like moon lit ponds when all the other lights are out. You see the under side of the plants and fish that swim over them and the silhouettes fish as they swim by. It is even more relaxing to watch than the fish in day light. The UGF plate would block the light from below the tank if I put the ponds on top of the plates. I had it set up, but never got any good photos to post.  It is magical looking with white lights and even more magical looking when the lights are set to drift from one color to the next. The hill stream loaches love going up and down and round and round in the ponds, which is fun to watch day or night. I only set it up with the "moon light when I have time to sit and watch the tanks after "lights out". usually only 20 minutes or so now and then, not every night. It was just a fun idea. I have air stones in the 2 deeper "ponds" to keep the water moving and for a cool visual effect.

I knew that was what you are going for and look forward to seeing pictures.  I've played with up-lighting in other situations, but it never occurred to me to try it in the aquarium. 

I briefly lit my 65 with a single 24"tube light in the center.  It was inadequate in power as well as size.  At night however, is was mesmerizing to watch the moonlight Gourami cruising in and out of the "moonlight" above the other fish.

 

[KittenFishMom]

@Tanked Was your 24' light above or below the water. My idea was to produce something that looked like moon light reflective off the ponds in the still of the night.

"Remember, the North wind drops at sunset"

 

[gardenman]

Just a heads up on lighting a tank from the bottom. You may see some behavioral changes in your fish. I had a nightlight under a goldfish tank and the goldfish tried to swim upside down thinking the light was up, as all light in nature is. The sun, moon, and stars in nature are all up, and my goofy goldfish assumed the light coming up from the bottom of their tank was up and they tried to orient themselves to the light. If you notice your fish swimming weirdly at night in a tank with bottom lighting, don't worry too much. The fish are probably fine, just confused as to which way is up. Their swim bladder says one thing and their eyes another.

[Tanked]

I think that a partially lit display tank at night is an effect that most people overlook. The evenly lit blue moonlight aquarium has never looked natural to me

My light was above the tank. This was an adopted setup that had been badly neglected.  I scrapped the full hoods and began playing with the lights in different positions on top.  The light colored gravel reflected some light. Ultimately I settled for placing just one of the 22" lights off center in the middle. The lighting trailed off to darkness on either side of the aquarium, and the closer to the surface, the brighter the fish/plants became.  

Your project offers some interesting possibilities; experimentation is in order.  While the glass ponds will mostly disappear underwater, they will collect algae. 

You said you were going for moonlight.  The empty glass and light combo might be quite bright.  Unless that is a desired effect, I would suggest some sort of diffuser, a smaller light under the tank, or not placing the light directly under the pond.  You might consider going to the craft store or amazon for flat polished glass marbles.  They will allow most of the light to pass through and are relatively easy to remove or clean. It is possible but they may even resemble ripples on the pond.   A plastic barrier between the substrate and the pond will allow for the inevitable removal and cleaning.

Have fun with it.  Its not the destination, its the journey.

[KittenFishMom]

@Tanked I do use dim lights, so I haven't gotten good photos. I've played with different colors and brightness. I only have it on for 15 or 20 minutes before bed, and only now and then, not every evening. I'll turn it on and tinker with it and watch and turn it off and go to bed. It is very much a journey. The tall ripple glass shows light at each ripple. the middle was just a tad above the black sand. the one on the right was about an inch and a half. They really disappear in the day light. The snails and the hill stream loaches kept the algae off. The ponds are small compared to the tank, so the fish swim through the light and back out in just a few moments. What was really fun to watch was the cories "hopping" in and out of the low ponds. They made it look like a steeple chase. They were always checking to see if something yummy got traps in the bowls. if one went in often others would follow. They did this day and night, but it was hard to see why they were jumping and disappearing if you watched at eye level(on a low foot stool)

Edited September 6, 2023 by KittenFishMom

[Tanked]

I did not realize that you already had this tank up and running.  Hopefully we will see pictures someday.  It sounds like it is entertaining for you and the fish. 

[KittenFishMom]

@Tanked Yes, it was up and running. Then I added seaweed from the lake and it got leeches. Now the fish are in QT tanks all over the living room and the plants have been treated with RR twice and are in buckets. The substrate is in the garden. The tank has been clean with salt and vinegar and then rinsed and treated with peroxide. I'm planning to bring it up with UGF once I get the uplift tubes I need. After the tank is up and stable, I'll start on the sump set up. I figure the plants will clog the UGF over time, but the sump should take over be then and I can remover the uplift tubes. I'm crossing my fingers and toes that it all works.

Edited September 6, 2023 by KittenFishMom