Nutrient Deficiency Help

[RadMax8]

Hello, and welcome to everyone's favorite gameshow... NAME THAT DEFICIENCY! I'm your host RadMax8. Please join along as I describe a tank and what's going into it, then show some photos and then you can NAME THAT DEFICIENCY!
Tank Equipment:
Aqueon 40b
Two Original Finnex Planted+ 24/7 set to run 8 hours a day
CO2 injection with a Griggs reactor and a Milwaukee controller
Fluval 407 Filter
Parameters:
Temp - 79F
pH - 7.0 dropping to 5.8 with full CO2
dGH - 12
dKH - 5
NO3 - 20 ppm
PO4 - 2 ppm
Fe - .58 ppm
Ca - 40-60 ppm (tap is about 40)
Dosing:
Macros and Micros dosed 3x per week alternating days. Values shown per dose.
CO2 - 30+ ppm
PO4 - 1.4 ppm
K - 9 ppm per does plus 40 ppm added at water changes
Fe - .12 ppm via Plant-Prod Micro Mix with trace amount of Mn added
Mg - 12 ppm added at water changes (Ca:Mg ratio is at about 3:1)

My plants show signs of Calcium deficiency (AR and Ludwigia) as well as Potassium (any Hygrophila and my Staur repens). My parameters and dosing seem to indicate otherwise. What is going on here? Thanks for your help!

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

I don't think you have a deficency based on the numbers you are saying but plants are showing it. I am wondering if you are getting an issue of nutrient uptake from another nutrient. Mulder's Chart is what I am referring to:

[Mmiller2001]

What’s the TDS?

[JoeQ]

As someone who recently abandoned retrying the 24/7 I'd blame the light!!! Lousy instructions, wayyyyyyy too much blue light (see all that black beard on lower leaves) and as a whole, not customizable enough.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @RadMax8

Looking at the pictures I agree that either the light intensity and/or the photoperiod needs to be reduced.

In addition, the cupping of leaves as they mature would indicate an issue with insufficient available magnesium.  The spots of necrosis on the older leaves of the S. repens would indicate an issue with insufficient available potassium.  And lastly the Green Spot Algae (GSA) indicates an insufficient available issue with phosphorus.  Notice I said "insufficient available " and not that the amount being dosed is inadequate.

This could all relate to the antagonistic relationship of calcium with all three of those nutrients.  In other words the excess calcium may be effecting the uptake of the other three nutrients.  Could you please give me the current dGH and ppm of calcium of your tap water?  Thank you, -Roy

[RadMax8]

On 8/7/2023 at 3:20 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

I don't think you have a deficency based on the numbers you are saying but plants are showing it. I am wondering if you are getting an issue of nutrient uptake from another nutrient. Mulder's Chart is what I am referring to:

That is quite the eye test. I will need to study that to understand it a bit better. Is there a link to an article that this came from? Thank you!

On 8/7/2023 at 3:30 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What’s the TDS?

Dug out my (nearly forgotten) TDS meter and it looks like I'm about 390 ppm in the tank, which seems a bit high. I think a full filter clean is due. The tap water measured at 140 ppm

On 8/7/2023 at 4:08 PM, JoeQ said:

As someone who recently abandoned retrying the 24/7 I'd blame the light!!! Lousy instructions, wayyyyyyy too much blue light (see all that black beard on lower leaves) and as a whole, not customizable enough.

I am looking to make a change; the light doesn't have the 680nm red LEDs that people seem to have nice success with, plus I'm not wild about the way the plants and fish look.

On 8/7/2023 at 5:37 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @RadMax8

Looking at the pictures I agree that either the light intensity and/or the photoperiod needs to be reduced.

In addition, the cupping of leaves as they mature would indicate an issue with insufficient available magnesium.  The spots of necrosis on the older leaves of the S. repens would indicate an issue with insufficient available potassium.  And lastly the Green Spot Algae (GSA) indicates an insufficient available issue with phosphorus.  Notice I said "insufficient available " and not that the amount being dosed is inadequate.

This could all relate to the antagonistic relationship of calcium with all three of those nutrients.  In other words the excess calcium may be effecting the uptake of the other three nutrients.  Could you please give me the current dGH and ppm of calcium of your tap water?  Thank you, -Roy

Recent measurement of my tap water was a GH of 7 and my calcium is between 38-43 ppm per the water department. I use 40 ppm as a good calculation that can be confirmed roughly by my API test kit.

[JoeQ]

On 8/7/2023 at 8:52 PM, RadMax8 said:

That is quite the eye test. I will need to study that to understand it a bit better. Is there a link to an article that this came from? Thank you!

No link, it's just from experience.  One of the common complaints with the 24/7 is it's ability to grow some pretty nice BBA (Blue light being a major contributor). I think it took 3 days for some to show up on a crypt in my 10 gallon before I swapped it out for my Aquasky.

[RadMax8]

@JoeQ The eye test was referring to the chart that @SkaleyAquatics provided.

I'm growing major BBA on my snails, so I can definitely agree there. And I always get BBA on my rocks in there, too. How do you like your Aquasky?

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:52 PM, RadMax8 said:

I think a full filter clean is due.

Yes. Try to get the mulm and junk off the substrate too. Looks a bit messy in there.

[JoeQ]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:13 PM, RadMax8 said:

@JoeQ The eye test was referring to the chart that @SkaleyAquatics provided.

I'm growing major BBA on my snails, so I can definitely agree there. And I always get BBA on my rocks in there, too. How do you like your Aquasky?

My bad, I blame my reading comprehension skills, which are a product/reflection of the public education system!!!!

As per the Aquasky (before I get myself banned) I like it, and my plants seem to like it! Its basically a bare-bones 3.0 with a few gimmicky features but unlike the 3.0 its made for a shallow(er) tank. I like how it is fully customizable thru an app but all tolled Im not sure if it grows plants better than a simple, inexpensive stingray.

Edited August 8, 2023 by JoeQ

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 8/7/2023 at 8:52 PM, RadMax8 said:

That is quite the eye test. I will need to study that to understand it a bit better. Is there a link to an article that this came from? Thank you!

I actually was given the chart by @gjcarew. Though I think @Seattle_Aquarist also is seeing what I am seeing and will get you sorted out. He has much more experience with this than I do.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:52 PM, RadMax8 said:

I am looking to make a change; the light doesn't have the 680nm red LEDs that people seem to have nice success with, plus I'm not wild about the way the plants and fish look.

Recent measurement of my tap water was a GH of 7 and my calcium is between 38-43 ppm per the water department. I use 40 ppm as a good calculation that can be confirmed roughly by my API test kit.

Hi @RadMax8,

I agree that I like the look that a few deep red LEDs add to a tank but it will do little to deal with the plant issues that are occurring.

I did some 'quick and dirty' calculations and if the water out of the tap has a dGH@7 and the calcium is about 40 ppm then the amount of magnesium in the water is 6.10 ppm.  With the tank having a dGH@12 and a calcium concentration of 40 - 60 ppm (50 avg) then the magnesium concentration is about 21.8 ppm or about the 3:1 you indicated.  If the numbers are accurate then you should have adequate magnesium in your tank.

If this were my tank I would do the following:
1)  Clean it up (as suggested) and remove as much excess algae as possible and any plants with heavy algae infestation
2)( Reduce the photoperiod by 1/3, this will lessen the demand for nutrients and slow down the algae growth - we may need to reduce further but let's start here

I believe in only changing one nutrient parameter at a time.  We already determined that you should have sufficient magnesium (Mg) in the tank but the symptoms of insufficient Mg uptake still persist.  There is also the Green Spot Algae (GSA) a strong indicator of insufficient available phosphorus / phosphate (PO4).  Estimative Index (EI) dosing range is between 1.0 - 3.0 ppm so I would suggest increasing the PO4 dosing to reach a testing level in your tank of 3.0 ppm.  This should not only address the formation of new GSA (no existing GSA will not disappear) but if you look closely at Mulder's Chart you will see there is a synergy between phosphate and magnesium.  In other works increasing the phosphate level should help improve the magnesium uptake.

Do the increased PO4 dosing for four (4) weeks with the reduced photoperiod and look at the new growth of the plants.  Does it appear healthier, are the leaves less deformed?  If so you are on the right path.  Let us know how things progress! -Roy

Edit:  There was one thing that slipped by me "pH - 7.0 dropping to 5.8 with full CO2".  Is there a particular reason you drop your pH so much, is it for a fish species?  The reason I ask is the availability of nutrients can be effected by pH and with a pH of 5.8 during the 'day' when photosynthesis is occurring and the plants are utilizing the nutrients in your tank the magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus / phosphate availability is being impacted by the low pH.  Note in the chart below that phosphorus begins to become less available at a pH of 6.5 availability and is substantially less available at a pH of 6.0.  Possibly either reduce the amount of CO2 or add some sodium bicarbonate (baking soda / NaHCO₃) to increase the buffering capacity of the tank so the pH does not drop as low during CO2 injection.  -Roy

pH and nutrient availability


Bacopa colorata

Edited August 8, 2023 by Seattle_Aquarist

[RadMax8]

@Seattle_Aquarist Thanks for confirming my calculations on my calcium and magnesium... I was going off a German-language site and doing my best to understand the translation.

In regards to reducing my photoperiod, I would be taking it from 8 hours a day to 5 and a half... That seems awfully short to me. Or am I just putting too much light in?

I will look to increase my PO4 dosing and see if I can stop the GSA. It's not awful in the tank, but it's not great either.

The reason I am pushing so much CO2 is because certain people in the planted tank realm are really subscribed to the "never enough CO2" theory *cough tom barr cough*  and so I thought, ok I'm getting weird growth and BBA, must increase CO2. My fish are ok with that much gas, so I guess I thought more is better. pH drop is a way to control how much CO2 you have in solution, right?

Thanks for taking the time to work through this with me!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @RadMax8

Glad to confirm your calcium / magnesium calculations.  I run a 'split photoperiod' on my four (4) tanks of 9:00 - 11:00 in the morning and 7:00 - 9:30 in the evenings for a total of 5-1/2 hours with no plant growth issues, and I only have one light per tank not running at full output.  It's only been been a week but how are your plants looking?  I usually only make an adjust one a month and then judge the results.

As for measuring my CO2 I use a drop check with a 4.0 dKH indicator solution.  I've used several types of drop checkers over the years my current favorite is the Fluval shown below.  I run my CO2 24/7 and maintain a range of 20 - 30 ppm of CO2.  Hope this helps! -Roy

[RadMax8]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:02 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @RadMax8

Glad to confirm your calcium / magnesium calculations.  I run a 'split photoperiod' on my four (4) tanks of 9:00 - 11:00 in the morning and 7:00 - 9:30 in the evenings for a total of 5-1/2 hours with no plant growth issues, and I only have one light per tank not running at full output.  It's only been been a week but how are your plants looking?  I usually only make an adjust one a month and then judge the results.

As for measuring my CO2 I use a drop check with a 4.0 dKH indicator solution.  I've used several types of drop checkers over the years my current favorite is the Fluval shown below.  I run my CO2 24/7 and maintain a range of 20 - 30 ppm of CO2.  Hope this helps! -Roy
 

Roy, so funny enough, I hit a bit of a busy patch (three kids five and under will do that...) and I didn't get to refill my fertilizer reservoir. I had initially calculated my ferts would run out around July 30th, with probably a week or so in reserve. Well, it's been three weeks and I think a few of my plants are actually reacting better to more lean nutrients. All my hygro still looks like I'm low on potassium (still dosing 40ppm at water changes though... go figure!), but my bacopa, ambulia, and blyxa have all been growing well, and my GDA has seemed to clear up a bit (it was not really too noticeable except in that closeup to me!). My plan is to cut back on other nutrient this next batch, likely iron because I never have iron levels below 0.50ppm before water changes. I have also made another change to a different light setup. I know, changing more things than once. I do use a drop checker to monitor CO2... I think I was at a higher range than you but I've backed down a bit.

On 8/17/2023 at 5:20 AM, Pepere said:

It bears mentioning that there are four different variations of the Finnex Planted Plus 24/7 with very different intensities and even wavelengths. As well as a planted plus without the 24/7 timer.  The 24/7 timer is a hot mess…

And using the 24/7 timer on it is abysmal with a 3 hour ramp from setting to setting.  Running these lights in 24/7 mode with a Split photoperiod is an exercise in futility with the three hour ramp period.

 I have 1 KLC that I bought by accident before I understood the differences and the light output is anemic compared to my ALCs, and the red is truly disappointing…

I do not use the 24/7 timer included with the lights.  I set a programmed lighting setting with 100% red, 50% green 20% blue and then bring the whites up to desired intensity.  

Pepere, I had two of the Finnex lights on my tank, it was purchased before there were four options! The light would be analogous to the KLC... No 660nm lights, regular housing, 24/7 timer. I learned long ago to ditch the 24/7 mode and instead I used a smart outlet to control my photo period. Shocked the fish a bit, but it worked.