How long can bacteria/parasites last in a system with no fish?

[tolstoy21]

Just as the subject says . . .

If I let an aquarium, plants, substrate etc. sit for a certain amount of time with no life in it other than malaysian trumpet snails, how long \ would it be before it can safely consider it free from fish-related parasites/bacteria? This system also has a pretty beefy UV sterilizer in it, so anything waterborne should be nuked.

My goal is to not have to completely empty and reset the environment before repopulating it. 

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Guppysnail]

I looked into ich once. Some say 30 days some say 90. 
If you know what you are trying to eliminate *AND* its lifecycle requires a fish host to complete the cycle look to see how long its life cycle is for answers. 
Unfortunately there are things that can affect fish that do not require a fish host or even a host from my understanding. They simply feed on detritus in the substrate. 
Im not educated in the science fields though. That info just comes from things I’ve read over the years. 
 

@Odd Duck 

[Odd Duck]

This is nearly impossible to answer because bacteria tend to be very versatile little buggers and some can feed on nearly anything.  I don’t think you could say a system would ever be 100% pathogen free without disinfecting completely and starting over, then moving proven disease free eggs into the system and hatching them there, feeding sterilized foods using sterile gloves to handle the sterilized food, etc, and even then any new organisms you introduce have potential to bring nasty stuff along with them.

One of the “hot” areas of study is the “biome” of animals (and people).  There is solid information that a balance of organisms is more important for keeping the host healthy than any one exact organisms.  We know that a single bacterial, fungal, or viral organism is extremely unlikely to cause disease and many only cause disease once a certain total population or focal population density is reached.  Probiotics and prebiotics are being considered more and more important at staving off diseases.  Some of us have been fiddling around with using high doses or frequent doses of beneficial bacteria as part of treating some chronic issues, some acute issues, and various other things both as preventatives and as part of the treatment regimen trying to boost immune function and reduce stress.  Right now it isn’t anything that’s terribly scientific but we do have some pretty decent anecdotal results so far.

I think doing everything possible to minimize stress, keeping animals healthy overall, water changes on schedule, species appropriate water params, etc, is all you can do.  If there is a specific disease you’re concerned about I might be able to give you a more definitive answer as some can only survive under certain circumstances or conditions.  But even that information can be hard to determine, just like @Guppysnail mentioned about Ich. multifiliis, there is significant disagreement on how long it takes for this to be considered completely gone and the life cycle of it has been known for decades.  🤷🏻‍♀️ 

[tolstoy21]

@Odd Duck  Thanks for the long and thorough response. Very appreciated.

I guess I should clarify what I am trying to achieve.

One of my recent additions to my aquarium has brought in a parasite of some sorts. A bunch of my fish now have very sunken bellies, and I've lost a few.  I'm going to be moving them all to a separate tank and treating them in the next few days.

I was planning on adding discus to the aquarium, but this outbreak is throwing a wrench into the works.

Basically, I'm trying to avoid tearing down the entire tank, getting new substrate etc.  But I'm guessing that's the safest route if I want to add expensive fish to the environment and feel a little confident I'm not introducing them to a plague zone. My hope was to just run the system sans fish for a period, but if that's not the best path, then I guess it's time for a reset.

It's been a while, maybe 7 or 8 years, since I've set this aquarium up. It's probably time to tear it down and do some cleaning and maintenance.

-- Nicholas

Edited July 26, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Guppysnail]

You can safely clean your plants using Reverse Respiration. This will kill parasites and diseases from them. 

 

[tolstoy21]

@Guppysnail

I do have a large CO2 tank I use to make seltzer, so perhaps that's a no brainer for me. This aquarium is pretty much all anubias so it's easy to take out.

Edited July 26, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Guppysnail]

@tolstoy21 Something you may want to consider that we did not get the opportunity to test. 
Fill the tank with seltzer. @dasaltemelosguy can give more information but it’s something we looked into as an alternative to tearing down tanks. It did not seem feasible to buy that much seltzer but you having a co2 tank for making seltzer it may work out. 
 

We know using co2 tanks that inject co2 into aquariums and just upping the output did not get to the pressure etc needed but your seltzer making ability poured right in just might 
 

[tolstoy21]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:00 AM, Guppysnail said:

Fill the tank with seltzer.

125 gallons of seltzer?  That's a lot of seltzer! Should I add a twist of lime?  😛

[Guppysnail]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:00 AM, tolstoy21 said:

125 gallons of seltzer?  That's a lot of seltzer! Should I add a twist of lime?  😛

Oh my. I missed how big your tank was 🤣

[dasaltemelosguy]

Hi @tolstoy21, we were exploring ways to make higher volumes of seltzer for this very purpose. It requires some initial investment that may be prohibitive but if you’re cleaning plants at high volume or with some regularity, it reduces the cost and increases the volume of seltzer dramatically. 

Bottled seltzer seems to run around $1/liter. Seltzer made with a SodaStream averages about 25c/liter but with the SodaStream adaptor, a common SodaStream device makes seltzer for only 5c/liter. 

Basically, you can either use a kegging setup or use a SodaStream adaptor (or other brands-see the catalog link below). A keg setup requires $200-$300 initially but can create 5 gallons of seltzer in minutes at a cost of 5c/gallon. The SodaStream (or other) adaptor setup is $100-$200. 

These people make an adaptor to attach much larger CO2 tanks to an existing home carbonation device like a SodaStream:

SodaMod | SodaStream CO2 Adapters and Sodamod Beverage Grade Tanks enable Cheap Sodastream CO2 Refills

Typically, people swap out the SodaStream or similar cartridge for Paintball CO2 cartridges. These are available at any sporting goods stores or sporting goods departments (like Walmart) and may be refilled there as well. 

This adapts a SodaStream in this example to make as much as 250 gallons of seltzer for 5c – 8c per gallon, but in 1-liter increments. 

For high volumes, kegging is more efficient. A 5-gallon keg setup is described here. An initial investment of $100-$200 produces 5-gallon kegs of seltzer at a cost per gallon of just pennies:

KOMOS® Homebrew Kegging Kit | Ball Lock Keg | Slimline Torpedo Keg | Premium Dual Gauge Regulator | Easy Push Connect Fittings | MoreBeer

This article has links for quite a few higher volume seltzer creation options:

Best Ways to Make Carbonated Water - $0.08 - $0.5 / gallon (tasteofartisan.com)

We abandoned the idea because of the initial costs and the tedium of needing to create multiple, smaller volumes.

But even when making 5-gallon kegs, that’s a lot of seltzer for a 125!
 

[tolstoy21]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:04 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

Basically, you can either use a kegging setup or use a SodaStream adaptor (or other brands-see the catalog link below). A keg setup requires $200-$300 initially but can create 5 gallons of seltzer in minutes at a cost of 5c/gallon. The SodaStream (or other) adaptor setup is $100-$200.

Already ahead of ya on that front.  I've been using SodaMod's stuff for a while now and refilling canisters from a 20lb CO2 tank.  

I think I'd need to inject CO2 directly into the aquarium sump to pull this off without a lot of labor on my end.

I do have an unused CO2/solenoid/diffuser setup for planted tanks on hand.  Any advice on using something like that to jack the CO2 through the roof?

On 7/26/2023 at 10:34 AM, Guppysnail said:

Oh my. I missed how big your tank was 🤣

I probably didn't mention it.

Edited July 26, 2023 by tolstoy21

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 7/26/2023 at 8:18 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Already ahead of ya on that front.  I've been using SodaMod's stuff for a while now and refilling canisters from a 20lb CO2 tank.  

I think I'd need to inject CO2 directly into the aquarium sump to pull this off without a lot of labor on my end.

I do have an unused CO2/solenoid/diffuser setup for planted tanks on hand.  Any advice on using something like that to jack the CO2 through the roof?

I probably didn't mention it.

As for the whole tank, unfortunately, you can't get the CO2 high enough to effect Reverse Respiration unless it's pressurized. You need at least 3X atmospheric pressure for RR to occur and without it being sealed pressurization and with an open tank, you can't exceed 1X. You can get more CO2 saturation if the water is 40*F but still not nearly enough.

Even less carbonated waters won't work.  I once tried using Perrier and the snails walked around like nothing had changed. With seltzer, pretty much all oxygen-breathing creatures are extinguished in 30 minutes or so. 

I want to get that very rig you have too, but more to drink it than for my aquariums!

 

[tolstoy21]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:43 AM, dasaltemelosguy said:

I want to get that very rig you have too, but more to drink it than for my aquariums!

I got mine because 1) I love seltzer and drink it all day long instead of water 2) Was making too much aluminum and plastic waste buying cases of it from the store 3) It's not cost effective if you refill the co2 canisters one-at-a-time through the traditional means.

The initial outlay is a tad pricey, but in the long run I feel it's well worth it if you drink/use a lot of seltzer.  Refills of my 20lb tank are about $40, whereas the refill price of a 12oz canister through SodaStream is like $17 a pop!

I personally use the Aarke Carbonator 3 and cannot recommend it highly enough. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Odd Duck]

On 7/26/2023 at 6:42 AM, tolstoy21 said:

@Odd Duck  Thanks for the long and thorough response. Very appreciated.

I guess I should clarify what I am trying to achieve.

One of my recent additions to my aquarium has brought in a parasite of some sorts. A bunch of my fish now have very sunken bellies, and I've lost a few.  I'm going to be moving them all to a separate tank and treating them in the next few days.

I was planning on adding discus to the aquarium, but this outbreak is throwing a wrench into the works.

Basically, I'm trying to avoid tearing down the entire tank, getting new substrate etc.  But I'm guessing that's the safest route if I want to add expensive fish to the environment and feel a little confident I'm not introducing them to a plague zone. My hope was to just run the system sans fish for a period, but if that's not the best path, then I guess it's time for a reset.

It's been a while, maybe 7 or 8 years, since I've set this aquarium up. It's probably time to tear it down and do some cleaning and maintenance.

-- Nicholas

If you’ve determined what the parasite is, then we can determine best med to use.  If you don’t know for certain the parasite, then you can treat the whole tank if necessary.  You can get this product (Levamisole) for very reasonable price and it will make enough for just under 1/2 ounce of medicated food (12 grams food) at 4 mg/g of food.  Mix it into some yummy Repashy that everybody likes.  It can knock out snails, but in food it’s a bit less likely to knock out snails if the fish eat it all.  Still a risk for snails even if it’s in fish food.

[tolstoy21]

@Odd Duck

I have two medicated food on the way from Angels Plus. One is praziquantel based, the other levamisole based. 

I think at this point I'm going to just break down the tank and start anew, and will treat the fish separately, in different aquariums. 

I've had a lot of different fish in this tank over the years and haven't changed the substrate since I set it up (Seachem Black Fluorite Sand).

What fish recover I plan on breeding (cardinal tetras, silver tipped tetras, some cories, etc.). Then I'll move their young back to this system. 

There isn't a ton of fish in it now as I was gearing up for discus. Just the last round of fish I got from my LFS seem to have brought in the plague with them despite my efforts to quarantine them. 

[Odd Duck]

On 7/26/2023 at 3:03 PM, tolstoy21 said:

@Odd Duck

I have two medicated food on the way from Angels Plus. One is praziquantel based, the other levamisole based. 

I think at this point I'm going to just break down the tank and start anew, and will treat the fish separately, in different aquariums. 

I've had a lot of different fish in this tank over the years and haven't changed the substrate since I set it up (Seachem Black Fluorite Sand).

What fish recover I plan on breeding (cardinal tetras, silver tipped tetras, some cories, etc.). Then I'll move their young back to this system. 

There isn't a ton of fish in it now as I was gearing up for discus. Just the last round of fish I got from my LFS seem to have brought in the plague with them despite my efforts to quarantine them. 

Glad you have the antiparasitics on the way.  Sorry for the plague.  It’s happened to me before, too.  I quarantined some CPD’s for almost 3 months because one of them was geriatric and didn’t look great but never showed signs of anything contagious.  Put them in my nano 100 G and had an Ich breakout.  Salt, heat, and a UV filter did the trick, but I was stressing for a while.