Betta with assumed swim bladder disease not fully recovering

[Zesul]

I first noticed my betta start to swim funny a little over 3 weeks ago then he took a drastic turn right after I noticed it and started spinning every time he was trying to swim. It took me a while to set up a quarantine tank for him so it wasn't ready till the next day and I thought he was close to death at that point he kept trying to swim and it lead to him corkscrewing until he had completely exhausted himself and I thought he was just going to die from that and stress. I finally got him in the sick tank with aquarium salts and anti -bacterial. I than fasted him for 3 days trying to clear his system I was fully prepared to have him not eat on the 4th day and that was going to be my indication to humanely euthanize him, but I was so happy when he ate (I've been feeding freeze dried daphnia). He got more active when it was feeding time but mostly stayed behind his heater for hours. After about 3 weeks of no more real improvement I decided to put him back in his tank (he seemed to hate the quarantine tank since it was empty besides the equipment). He moved around more but still was not his active self lying down for hours on end and sometimes in weird positions. He still swims slightly sideways and he is very floaty seeming to float upwards on his tail end so a lot of the times he'll end up vertical. He barely uses his tail fins to swim anymore mostly just using his pectoral fins to due everything. When he goes up to gulp air I've noticed instead of the one time he usually gulps he'll take 2 and the air seems to push right out of his gills as he gulps it which never happened before. Another thing is all throughout quarantine he never pooped a lot maybe once every couple days so I'm not sure if he's really clearing his system. The last thing that's really worrying me is I've noticed he has started to lose scales on his head and I have no idea what's causing it. Please anyone who has more experience dealing with sick bettas I could really use some help.

There might be and underlying cause with my cycle but I don't know what's causing it nothing I look up helps, I can't seem to get my nitrites down. I have 0ppm ammonia and 5.0ppm nitrates but .25ppm nitrite. Here's everything I add to my tank Easy green fertilizer, Flourish excel, Fritz Zyme trace elements, and a wonder shell once a month for my snail. The Excel and wonder shell are the most recent additions so I'm not sure if they are the ones breaking my cycling. Last water change I added more beneficial bacteria to try and help the cycle. 

[Colu]

Seachem Excel can be toxic if over dosed if you have add more then the recommend amount that could be the cause of the symptoms your seeing I can't say for sure that the cause if it is suffering from swim bladder you want to do Epsom salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days as Epsom salt acts as a muscle relaxant to help relieve pressure on the swim bladder @Zesul

[BAT]

@Zesul i have been having similar issues with my betta

almost exactly as you describe. 
I just posted about it

i am going to try Epsom salts

let me know if you find anything else that works

i have found adding aquarium salt to the tank has helped a bit

[Zesul]

@BAT I'm sorry to hear you are having the same issue I'll be sure to let you know if anything I try helps. 

@Colu Thank you for the advice about the Excel I'll be lowering my dosage and as for the Epsom salt I've been a little nervous about using it. Should I put a heater in the Epsom salt bath so I don't shock him with the different temp ( I have to use RO water from my fish store cuz my tap water isn't good for aquariums) and would it be ok to use that same salt bath for multiple days or should I mix it fresh every time?

[Colu]

On 4/25/2023 at 8:25 PM, Zesul said:

@BAT I'm sorry to hear you are having the same issue I'll be sure to let you know if anything I try helps. 

@Colu Thank you for the advice about the Excel I'll be lowering my dosage and as for the Epsom salt I've been a little nervous about using it. Should I put a heater in the Epsom salt bath so I don't shock him with the different temp ( I have to use RO water from my fish store cuz my tap water isn't good for aquariums) and would it be ok to use that same salt bath for multiple days or should I mix it fresh every time?

What I do is add one gallon of tank water to a bucket that way it has the same temperature and water parameters as his main tank the temperature won't fluctuate much in 15 minutes  and top of his tank i wouldn't keep the same bath I would make up fresh Epsom salt bath every  

[Zesul]

@Colu Guess I'll have to go to my fish store and stock up on a few gallons of RO water 😄 thanks again for the advice

[BAT]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:40 PM, Colu said:

What I do is add one gallon of tank water to a bucket that way it has the same temperature and water parameters as his main tank the temperature won't fluctuate much in 15 minutes  and top of his tank i wouldn't keep the same bath I would make up fresh Epsom salt bath every  

@Colu can you use the tank water if you have salt in it? Is it a problem to have aquarium salt and add epsom salt? Ie too much salt?

[Colu]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:47 AM, BAT said:

@Colu can you use the tank water if you have salt in it? Is it a problem to have aquarium salt and add epsom salt? Ie too much salt?

You can use Epsom salt and aquarium salt together they won't have a negative interaction as long as you don't go above 1 table spoon for 1 gallon combined salt concentration you should be fine 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Colu

[Zesul]

@Colu First Epsom salt bath went well ( I measured everything out to make sure I got the dose right) until I put him back in the tank he kinda sunk to the bottom and was unresponsive for about a minute or so besides him breathing. He has moved around a little bit since ( it's only been about 10 minutes since I put him back) so I'm not sure if it was just mild shock from being moved a lot or a bad reaction to the salt. Would it still be ok to proceed with daily salt baths and if so how long should I be giving them to him?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

This can happen, what they usually suggest is make a 2nd bath with half as much salt and put them in there as a transition. You can make a 3rd bath with a quarter or less if you think it might be less stressful just in case after observing the 1st transition. 

You might even consider having to use less salt for future baths. 

[Zesul]

@xXInkedPhoenixX Yeah he seems even more out of it since the bath only really moving around when I come up to the tank to see him, so I'm nervous to try another bath.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

While treating with epsom is a legit treatment if the effects are too much I would consider using another med. What might you have on hand?

And, have you gotten your nitrites down yet?

[Colu]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:49 PM, Zesul said:

@xXInkedPhoenixX Yeah he seems even more out of it since the bath only really moving around when I come up to the tank to see him, so I'm nervous to try another bath.

I would lower the dose of Epsom salt to 1 table spoon for 3 gallons as he's had  negative reaction to the higher dose 

[Zesul]

Another thing that's really concerning me is the scale lose on his head has gotten worse ( picture of him facing left is when he was healthy and the other two are him now) and I'm not sure if it's another disease or injury should I put him back in the quarantine tank and treat with aquarium salt and melafix? 

[Colu]

That looks like hole in the head disease the most effective treatment is metronidazole that the active ingredient in metroplex adding it to food feeding a small amount twice a day for upto 3 weeks @Zesul

[Zesul]

@Colu I've heard of that before but never seen it in person thanks so much I'm going to call my lfs and ask if they have any metroplex so I don't have to wait on shipping hopefully he can hold out until I can start him on treatment.

[Zesul]

@Colu Ok got the medication and fed him his first dose he has a harder time taking pellets now cuz he seems uncoordinated but the enthusiasm is there so he gets it eventually ( with a little help). He seems a little more alert today which is good hoping that Epsom salt soak helped him a little. 

[Zesul]

He's been on the treatment for about 3 days and it's been a huge improvement he is way more active and actually uses his tail fins to swim instead of just his pectoral fins. He still tends to start floating vertical if he is moving up and stop using his fins and has a harder time grabbing food but this is the closest he been to his usual self in over a month so I'm super happy. Going to continue the treat for at least 2 weeks and see how he is then. Thank you everyone for your advice I'll keep you posted.

[Zesul]

Treatment for my betta is going well he is way more active and swimming around the tank. Still pretty uncoordinated when trying to eat food but with help he gets it eventually. My concern now (since they never seem to end with this fish) his right gill has started to stick out slightly and I can't see him breathing (no visible movement) with it so I'm not sure if its working don't know if he has something stuck under it or something else. His other gill appears perfectly fine and I don't see any labored breathing or him going up to the surface for air a lot.