Apistogramma Breeding Tank

[tolstoy21]

I keep them in 20 gallon aquariums. I have spawned them in 10 gallons as well,  but  this works best if the pair get along and coparents without aggression.

Their preference (I believe) is to lay eggs in the underside of something, a leaf, driftwood, cave ceiling etc. Mine lay in apisto and pleco caves.

Edited March 28, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Is it an ok setup for a 3-4" pair of fish as opposed to a 6" fish? I believe that's the size for apisto, but as I said I'm just hear to learn!

What I'm confused about is, internet says apisto hongsloi reaches 7cm adult size. which means 2.75''. That's half of the size of my L199 living in a 60x40cm footprint tank but tall. If hongsloi is the biggest one between all of these, then it should be okay in terms of fish size I guess, as they are not really active swimmers. Like even a betta can reach 3'' size itself in some cases. @anewbie

If it has nothing to do with fish size but only potential agression then idk.

 

 

 

[tolstoy21]

On 3/28/2023 at 4:18 PM, anewbie said:

The problem is enough space to handle aggression between m/f - they need to be able to escape from each other or one will die.

Agreed.  Mine do kill one another from time to time. 

[jwcarlson]

On 3/28/2023 at 3:22 PM, Lennie said:

If it has nothing to do with fish size but only potential agression then idk.

It's this... 100%.  At least IMO.

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2023 at 3:22 PM, Lennie said:

What I'm confused about is, internet says apisto hongsloi reaches 7cm adult size. which means 2.75''. That's half of the size of my L199 living in a 60x40cm footprint tank but tall. If hongsloi is the biggest one between all of these, then it should be okay in terms of fish size I guess, as they are not really active swimmers. Like even a betta can reach 3'' size itself in some cases. @anewbie

If it has nothing to do with fish size but only potential agression then idk.

 

 

 

Who is suggesting hongsloi is ok? I certainly never suggested them and explicitly said the aquarium is too small for them. At this point I think i've said everything i can say and I'm just repeating myself...   and believe me i have made a lot of mistakes and i have seen other very experience fish keeper run into the same issue. While different individual have different aggression level don't underestimate the aggression and fishes know how to kill other fishes. You won't necessarily see rip fins or other obvious damage; you don't kill a fish by nipping at it.

Edited March 28, 2023 by anewbie

[Lennie]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:28 PM, anewbie said:

Who is suggesting hongsloi is ok? I certainly never suggested them and explicitly said the aquarium is too small for them. At this point I think i've said everything i can say and I'm just repeating myself...  

I never said someone has suggested a hongsloi. I said I checked their sizes online, due to it being mentioned as the biggest of them all previously. I was comparing sizes, as you mentioned only borelli was possible due to being on the smaller side in terms of size.

I understand the potential agression very well and I appreciate everyone sharing experiences. I read everything in detail, I wouldn't like to cause any repeating. I just don't wanna make a mistake.

I've read about their breeding report on the site you recommended to me in another thread. 

"I placed a pair of A. Hongsloi of unknown parentage in a homemade breeding tank of about 7 gallons. The tank measures about 23"L x 7"W x 8"H so it is quite long in relation to wide. I placed about 3/4" of fine sand on the bottom and place several broken pots for caves along with several large rocks placed to divide the sight lines in the tank. I added several water sprite plants anchored with small stones and several clumps of java moss. Finally I added a couple of handfuls of Oak leaves.

        It didn't take long for the pair to settle in and within a couple of days the female had nearly sealed herself into one of the caves. The male seemed oblivious and enjoyed the tank. After 8 days the female began to bring the fry out  of the cave. The first day they were still living on their yolk sacs and did very little swimming and made no attempt to feed. However by the second day mother was sheparding the fry around the tank under the close supervision of the male. He was an active partner in brood care and the female welcomed him into the shoal of fry. After several weeks the female began to make a few courtship displays to the male but never was their any aggression between them."

http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_hongsloi.php

So I'm just asking and trying to learn.

 

On 3/28/2023 at 11:25 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Agreed.  Mine do kill one another from time to time. 

Yikes, that's sad.

Is there any calmer species out of the ones mentioned above, or? Are they all chiuahuas or is there any golden retriever there? 😄 Or are they like bettas and gouramis, rather than species, it is the fish's individual character?

I spent around some time in 3 different days at my lfs watching them. In terms of agression, I've witnessed borelli male chasing other males and female chasing other females, and ag. fire reds chasing literally everyone. Others all seemed docile and peaceful. But of course being juvenile and not in a breeding mood may have an impact on that one for sure as I understand.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lennie

[NOLANANO]

From my (limited) experience and from what I have read, the Borelli are one of the smallest and least aggressive Apisto species.  I did notice from your pictures that the female Borelli is bright yellow which is its breeding colors, that could be an explanation as to why those were a little more active.

[jwcarlson]

I struggle when reading reports about anything with fish.  When I first got my apistos I could have written a post that said I successfully spawned A. hongloi in a 55 gallon with three pairs in it.  While true, it's not necessarily... honest.  Not saying that the post you're referencing isn't honest.  But perhaps it's a one off?

[Lennie]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:07 AM, jwcarlson said:

I struggle when reading reports about anything with fish.  When I first got my apistos I could have written a post that said I successfully spawned A. hongloi in a 55 gallon with three pairs in it.  While true, it's not necessarily... honest.  Not saying that the post you're referencing isn't honest.  But perhaps it's a one off?

Oh definitely! 

I don't believe in black and whites in fishkeeping mostly. Also ones experience does not make something a fact or valid. For instance, personally, I have been keeping and breeding softwater acidic fish with my 20kh and 8.0/8.2ph tap water. That might have worked for me but may cause problems for someone else's fish for example, maybe lethal results! The experiences are very unique and far from stating facts in the hobby in general. But surely helps us to gain some information and see potential situations before they may happen. I believe that is very valuable.

That is the main reason why I created a topic tbh. If you wanna find a source to support your opinion, you can find a valid one online in a way. You can find a writing that supports keeping a goldfish in a 5 liter bowl is great. You get me?

So yea, I'm here trying to learn from you guys' experience the best I can. Has been ages, but I kept african cichlids and blood parrots long time ago. Now black rams. So when it comes to cichlid behavior, I understand what you guys really mean.

I'm not trying to force a bare minimum. I'm just trying to learn really, and I really feel like it is possible. Especially considering I have potential to seperate male and female if needed. Lots of breeders breed their fish in very small tanks without any plant, decoration, and so on. I am ready to provide them the best planted, driftwood, cave tank with lots of leaf litter, alder cones, RO water/if necessary and so on. 

Otherwise, I would just read a few care guides, watch 2 videos and buy the fish really. I just wanna hear you guys and get some opinion.

Oh also, to me personally, I believe fish breeding has nothing to do with being happy really. I don't think it indicates a fish's happiness by any means. I just think it is a survival instinct, and it can be even triggered by stress or so. 

I've already obtained lots of good info here and I'm glad I created the topic

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lennie

[tolstoy21]

On 3/28/2023 at 4:39 PM, Lennie said:

Are they all chiuahuas or is there any golden retriever there?

Chihuahua's are AWESOME! But like apistos, they are hit or miss in terms of aggression. The first dog pictured would tear off your face and wear it as a coat, while the second loves everyone and everything and is a gentle as a mouse.

[Lennie]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:40 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Chihuahua's are AWESOME! But like apistos, they are hit or miss in terms of aggression. The first dog pictured would tear off your face and wear it as a coat, while the second loves everyone and everything and is a gentle as a mouse.

Are those yours??

Cuties 😄

The first one gives a calmer vibe ngl.

I feel like the second one already teared off someones face and wearing it as a coat already!!! 🤣

[Lennie]

@cavdad45 I've seen you mentioned having an apisto pair! 

Please share your experience 🙂

[cavdad45]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:54 PM, Lennie said:

@cavdad45 I've seen you mentioned having an apisto pair! 

Please share your experience 🙂

I love them. They do well in a community and are not the bully fish I was worried about. They do add that centerpiece to the tank

[tolstoy21]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:44 PM, Lennie said:

Are those yours??

Cuties 😄

Yeah. The first passed away a few years ago. The second is the 'replacement'.  Honestly though, I don't think I'll ever own another dog species. Love Chis!

As for apistos, like everything else, it's a bit of trial and error. I could tell you what works for me, but really, I'd just be describing one possible route to success amongst many.  

I breed mine in bare-bottom 20 gallons. I keep the water slightly acidic for most of the species I've bred, but that's really because my tap water is acidic. (It's actually simultaneously acidic and hard -- Kh 0, Gh 9).

In each, I put a cave, some driftwood, some java fern, and I arrange things so that the cave is bordered on three sides by those items. Sometimes I leave the male in, sometimes I take him out. Sometimes they kill one another, sometimes they don't. 

Right now, the three species I keep that co-parent peacefully are -- agassizii, baenschi, and abacaxis. But I have two other agassizii females (fire reds) who both murdered their husbands recently.

You can successfully breed in a ten gallon aquarium. However, the biggest challenge with smaller aquariums is that they don't work as well as growouts, especially if you have a large spawn.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Lennie]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:55 AM, cavdad45 said:

I love them. They do well in a community and are not the bully fish I was worried about. They do add that centerpiece to the tank

What's the tank size and the stocking you keep your pair with? only guppies?

 

On 3/29/2023 at 12:56 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Yeah. The first passed away a few years ago. The second is the 'replacement'.  Honestly though, I don't think I'll ever own another dog species. Love Chis!

I'm sorry to hear that. It is so hard to get over when you lose a family member.

 

On 3/29/2023 at 12:56 AM, tolstoy21 said:

As for apistos, like everything else, it's a bit of trial and error. I could tell you what works for me, but really, I'd just be describing one possible route to success amongst many.  

I breed mine in bare-bottom 20 gallons. I keep the water slightly acidic for most of the species I've bred, but that's really because my tap water is acidic. (It's actually simultaneously acidic and hard -- Kh 0, Gh 9).

In each, I put a cave, some driftwood, some java fern, and I arrange things so that the cave is bordered on three sides by those items. Sometimes I leave the male in, sometimes I take him out. Sometimes they kill one another, sometimes they don't. 

Right now, the three species I keep that co-parent peacefully are -- agassizii, baenschi, and abacaxis. But I have two other agassizii females (fire reds) who both murdered their husbands recently.

You can successfully breed in a ten gallon aquarium. The biggest challenge with smaller aquariums is that they don't work as well as growouts, especially if you have a large spawn.

fire reds look very wild at my lfs too!!! Maybe they are more agressive than normal agassiziis? Like normal german blue rams and black rams. Black rams having reputation of being more agressive. Who knows! Pretty sure one female killed another in my lfs too.

So from your "peaceful" experience, the only option I have is alenquers. Which is way too expensive for a reason.

The thing is, putting a female and male together does not guarantee breeding or pairing up right? Even if I decide to be willing to pay for a pair.

 

Are females generally yellow-ish or all yellowish ones are ready to breed?

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lennie

[cavdad45]

Lennie, I keep them in a 20 high with 5 albino cories and a half dozen or so Endlers

[tolstoy21]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:06 PM, Lennie said:

The thing is, putting a female and male together does not guarantee breeding or pairing up right? Even if I decide to be willing to pay for a pair.

 

Are females generally yellow-ish or all yellowish ones are ready to breed?

Yeah, I have to switch fish around from time to time to find the ones that want to pair.

In general, I find the the females will get a brighter yellow when they are in spawning mode. But, with some variants, like fire reds, they don't change color at all.

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2023 at 3:39 PM, Lennie said:

I never said someone has suggested a hongsloi. I said I checked their sizes online, due to it being mentioned as the biggest of them all previously. I was comparing sizes, as you mentioned only borelli was possible due to being on the smaller side in terms of size.

I understand the potential agression very well and I appreciate everyone sharing experiences. I read everything in detail, I wouldn't like to cause any repeating. I just don't wanna make a mistake.

I've read about their breeding report on the site you recommended to me in another thread. 

"I placed a pair of A. Hongsloi of unknown parentage in a homemade breeding tank of about 7 gallons. The tank measures about 23"L x 7"W x 8"H so it is quite long in relation to wide. I placed about 3/4" of fine sand on the bottom and place several broken pots for caves along with several large rocks placed to divide the sight lines in the tank. I added several water sprite plants anchored with small stones and several clumps of java moss. Finally I added a couple of handfuls of Oak leaves.

        It didn't take long for the pair to settle in and within a couple of days the female had nearly sealed herself into one of the caves. The male seemed oblivious and enjoyed the tank. After 8 days the female began to bring the fry out  of the cave. The first day they were still living on their yolk sacs and did very little swimming and made no attempt to feed. However by the second day mother was sheparding the fry around the tank under the close supervision of the male. He was an active partner in brood care and the female welcomed him into the shoal of fry. After several weeks the female began to make a few courtship displays to the male but never was their any aggression between them."

http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_hongsloi.php

So I'm just asking and trying to learn.

 

The fellow breeding them is extremely knowledgeable - hongsloi is one of those quasi-pair forming species and so the m/f aggression is lower for a time once they accept each other - though they can break up and some individual males end up being far more aggressive (macs are another such species). I suspect he kept them in  a larger aquarium and placed them in the 7 to breed them. This is a bit different than your configuration. i strongly suspect he is using the 7 to 'breed' them but they are not in their full time - in addition his aquarium has a lot of length so the separation area is much larger. You are welcome to try a pair of hongsloi in your aquarium but i would not recommend it - also upon purchase you need to make sure you have a pair as the tank is not large enough for normal courtship and bonding. They are not a small fish so you will need to do large frequent water changes. There is more to size than length. They are not super active but mine did use the full 29. 

On 3/28/2023 at 5:06 PM, Lennie said:

 

 

fire reds look very wild at my lfs too!!! Maybe they are more agressive than normal agassiziis? Like normal german blue rams and black rams. Black rams having reputation of being more agressive. Who knows! Pretty sure one female killed another in my lfs too.

So from your "peaceful" experience, the only option I have is alenquers. Which is way too expensive for a reason.

 

 

alenquers and fire red are equally aggressive.

[tolstoy21]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:06 PM, Lennie said:

fire reds look very wild at my lfs too!!! Maybe they are more agressive than normal agassiziis?

I just think its probably luck and comes down to the specific fish. But I could be wrong.  People tag me a lot in 'apisto breeding' threads because I do breed them quite a lot (and I don't mind being tagged at all), but I'm by far no expert. i just know what I've personally done (successfully and unsuccessfully) and have experienced (good and bad).

That being said, I am always happy to share my experiences, setups, etc.  But I reserve the right to be doing everything totally wrong and give terrible advice!  🙂

I would vote @anewbie as probably the most knowledgable apisto person on this forum. They seem to have some pretty deep knowledge about many apisto species, habits, habitats, etc.  The habitat I'm most knowledgable about is my basement fish room!

I'll also shamelessly share a pic of my recent fire red spawn, Just snapped this the other day. Future RAOK candidate?  

Edited March 29, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Lennie]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:12 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I just think its probably luck and comes down to the specific fish. But I could be wrong.  People tag me a lot in 'apisto breeding' threads because I do breed them quite a lot (and I don't mind being tagged at all), but I'm by far no expert. i just know what I've personally done (successfully and unsuccessfully) and have experienced (good and bad).

That being said, I am always happy to share my experiences, setups, etc.  But I reserve the right to be doing everything totally wrong and give terrible advice!  🙂

I would vote @anewbie as probably the most knowledgable apisto person on this forum. They seem to have some pretty deep knowledge about many apisto species, habits, habitats, etc.  The habitat I'm most knowledgable about is my basement fish room!

I'll also shamelessly share a pic of my recent fire red spawn, Just snapped this the other day. Future RAOK candidate?  

They look amazing! 

Is a ph of 7.5 too high for some time? I will be decreasing it gradually when I setup their new tank. MY LFS keeps them all around this ph, none gets any special treatment. So all borellis, alenquer, elizabethae and hongsloi are being kept at around this ph at the store.  I got medication doses from Odd duck based on 7.5gr of food, so rather than throwing the food to trash and wasting it, I thought maybe I should treat my all tanks and fish all together, as I've never medicated them before. So that means keeping apistos in the 50cube during the treatment process, and moving them to their own tank later on, probably based on their potential agression too.

What do you think?

 

Also I've listened the podcast @Fish Folk recommended. It was very helpful! During the podcast, he mentioned that borelliis have the biggest spawn compared to other apistos. Probably that is the reason why they are the cheapest I guess.

[Lennie]

Okay, as the fish room is done, and I have spare cycled sponges and empty tanks for some breeding projects, it is time to resurrect this one.

Rn I have empty custom made shallow tanks with the size of:

• 50cm x 40 cm x 25 cm high. 50 liters. Just a lil bit bigger than what I created this topic for, so I pass that one I believe.
• 110cm x 40cm x 25cm high. 110 liters. (43.3" x 15.7''x 10"high, 29g) That is a long shallow tank. Im sharing my BN breeding project to give an idea about the tank size:

 

Based on the previous conversations, this tank size with lots of cover and some caves should be the best idea I believe.

 

I have been searching for some apistos and the ones I liked so far from people who breed them close to me are as follows:

Apisto Macmasteri ( the guy said they are red neck but looks like gold to me?)

-The parents are sold. So he has his batch growing. He said he is waiting for the females to be certainly distinctable which would take around 15 more days.

The parents of potential juveniles I can get are:

 

Apisto ag. fire red pair:

 

Apisto Alenquers:

Young pairs (his words):

 

 

Trifasciata:

 

 

So, the questions:

1) the new tank size I have is good enough to set an apisto tank for a 1m:1f? Would it worth trying to go for 1m: 2+ female on anyone I shared above?

2)Given the pictures above, which one(s) would be a better option as an apisto entry drug, and which ones look healthier to you? As a person who LOVES orangeish colors on fish, I liked macmasteri and ag. fire reds much more than other two. Also according to my observations, my lfs never carries macmasteri, however, fire reds sell the best compared to any other apisto they have.

3) If I get juveniles, approximately how long does it take for them to reach sexual maturity?

 

Thanks for the help.

@tolstoy21 @anewbie could you guys please check when you have a free time? Thanks

 

 

 

 

[tolstoy21]

On 6/28/2023 at 6:40 AM, Lennie said:

So, the questions:

1) the new tank size I have is good enough to set an apisto tank for a 1m:1f? Would it worth trying to go for 1m: 2+ female on anyone I shared above?

2)Given the pictures above, which one(s) would be a better option as an apisto entry drug, and which ones look healthier to you? As a person who LOVES orangeish colors on fish, I liked macmasteri and ag. fire reds much more than other two. Also according to my observations, my lfs never carries macmasteri, however, fire reds sell the best compared to any other apisto they have.

3) If I get juveniles, approximately how long does it take for them to reach sexual maturity?

 

Thanks for the help.

@tolstoy21 @anewbie could you guys please check when you have a free time? Thanks

1) I would imagine that a trio would be fine in there so long as you set it up to create one territory for either female. I tend to not breed anything other than pairs, but that's just a choice of mine, not any sort of rule, so I don't have a ton of experience with anything other than pairs.

2) I am partial to the alenquers and the trifaciata, but those are personal preferences. I also really like the fire reds because of all the apistos I have, as they are the most personable (my double reds also act the same so I'll just say that I find agassizii in general personable and curious). The juveniles will come up to the glass in a big school to greet me and to beg for food while other species will immediately hide when I come near the tank and wait for me to leave to eat (yeah I'm talking about you Baenschi!). All the pics look good to me except the top two alenquers both look male to me.  Hard to say with the bottom two.

3) I'm going to say its about 6 - 8 months to reach sexual maturity, but honestly, I never keep track. That's just a gut feeling.

Edited June 28, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Lennie]

On 6/28/2023 at 2:41 PM, tolstoy21 said:

1) I would imagine that a trio would be fine in there so long as you set it up to create one territory for either female. I tend to not breed anything other than pairs, but that's just a choice of mine, not any sort of rule, so I don't have a ton of experience with anything other than pairs.

2) I am partial to the alenquers and the trifaciata, but those are personal preferences. I also really like the fire reds because of all the apistos I have, as they are the most personable (my double reds also act the same so I'll just say that I find agassizii in general personable and curious). The juveniles will come up to the glass in a big school to greet me and to beg for food while other species will immediately hide when I come near the tank and wait for me to leave to eat (yeah I'm talking about you Baenschi!). All the pics look good to me except the top two alenquers both look male to me.  Hard to say with the bottom two.

3) I'm going to say its about 6 - 8 months to reach sexual maturity, but honestly, I never keep track. That's just a gut feeling.

Well besides loving their color, now I am even more interested of the “character” of the ag. Fire reds🙂 

The problem with trifasciata, legitimately, every single picture in google seems different. This is kinda weird. It does not seem like light difference or so. They all look like different fish, or is it me?

Look:

+ the pictures I shared above from the guy.

Do you have any clue why is it like that? 
 

[anewbie]

If the ones you chose are pair forming like nijjensi complex then i think the tank is fine; but if a polygamous species i would have more barriers for the fishes to hide. Also color morph like red neck, gold, ... are completely arbitrary. There is no species like 'gold' mac - a mac is a mac is a mac and one can assign the colour to it as they see fit. Having said that you might ask the seller why they look gold - if it is a small breeder he might have red neck but when bred they produced a gold and he is using the name that was assigned to the parent (not saying this is the case). 

Some names are not colour but actual species or catch location - like netz.

 

Some species require the water be lower ph and lower tds for the eggs to hatch than other species. I didn't see your water parameters. If this is your first time i'd start with a more docile species like mac or borelli over trifs or agasizz which can be quite aggressive with regards to m/f behavior. Having said that even a female borelli might kill the male if there isn't enough cover for him to hide.

[Lennie]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:45 PM, anewbie said:

If the ones you chose are pair forming like nijjensi complex then i think the tank is fine; but if a polygamous species i would have more barriers for the fishes to hide. Also color morph like red neck, gold, ... are completely arbitrary. There is no species like 'gold' mac - a mac is a mac is a mac and one can assign the colour to it as they see fit. Having said that you might ask the seller why they look gold - if it is a small breeder he might have red neck but when bred they produced a gold and he is using the name that was assigned to the parent (not saying this is the case). 

Some names are not colour but actual species or catch location - like netz.

 

Some species require the water be lower ph and lower tds for the eggs to hatch than other species. I didn't see your water parameters. If this is your first time i'd start with a more docile species like mac or borelli over trifs or agasizz which can be quite aggressive with regards to m/f behavior. Having said that even a female borelli might kill the male if there isn't enough cover for him to hide.

That tank belongs to my bristlenoses, I just shared it to show the what tank diameters look like irl. I will setup a different one for apistos, it is just I have the same tank empty on hand

 

I have tap and RO options.

Tap: 8.0ph, 20kh, 0gh(due to softener), tds ~370. I buff this for my livebearers and snails with gh+ and mineral powder.

RO: 6.0 ph, 0kh, 0gh. Tds 24-25. I only use RO to mix to reach aimed ph like 7 for my bettas. I have never used full RO water in a tank before. Only planning to use something like full RO for my black ram breeding setup when I remove them from my community tank.

The guy who sells the all fish above except the fire reds said he keeps and breeds them all in his 6.0 ph RO water. So same with mine

The person who is selling fire reds haven’t contacted me yet

Edited June 28, 2023 by Lennie