All my Neocardina Died! (I Think)

[NOLANANO]

I went on a beach vacation for 4 days and when I returned, all of my shrimp are dead. Well... I think they are all dead. I found a few dead ones and the rest are no where to be seen. I also had a single ram that was perfectly healthy (I think) before I left have severe fin rot. Like half of its dorsal fin was gone and it died the morning after I got back. I checked the parameters and everything looked ok except for a small amount of Ammonia. When I say small, I mean the test kit was a yellow with the slightest hint of green. I did a water change and the ammonia has not returned.  All other fish seem to be doing well.

My Questions:

1) What could cause an entire (seemingly healthy) shrimp colony (50-100 or so shrimp) to die off in 4 days?

2) Is it possible that they all died of predation? I find this one hard to believe.

3) Do I need to find the source of the ammonia or is it most likely that the dead shrimp caused the ammonia spike?

4) Did the Ammonia spike (possibly from the shrimp) cause the fin rot?

5) Does fin rot usually happen so fast? I also have other rams and fish and none of them seem affected.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:47 AM, NOLANANO said:

1) What could cause an entire (seemingly healthy) shrimp colony (50-100 or so shrimp) to die off in 4 days?

There is a such thing as a common "colony crash" unfortunately.  Let's say you have a tank of a certain size that can happily sustain 150 shrimp.  you have 100 shrimp and 20 of them drop shrimplettes.  That could easily turn to a few hundred shrimp and the tank isn't really viable to support that amount of food for the colony of that size.  This causes some to die off, causes ammonia / nitrates to spike, causing more deaths and cycle where the tank balances itself so to speak.

Causes for what you experienced could be as above, but I would think that it's much more likely that some form of contaminant caused the issues.  Then one shrimp died, then the next, etc.  If one shrimp died from a bacterial issue (you mentioned fin rot) then that could lead the next shrimp to be infected that eats on the dead shrimp and the cycle progresses. 
 

On 3/1/2023 at 9:47 AM, NOLANANO said:

3) Do I need to find the source of the ammonia or is it most likely that the dead shrimp caused the ammonia spike?

Likely due to shrimp, but you'd want to change water and use dechlorinator to keep the system free from ammonia.
 

On 3/1/2023 at 9:47 AM, NOLANANO said:

5) Does fin rot usually happen so fast? I also have other rams and fish and none of them seem affected.

Very well could.  If the fish is in high stress and the disease is very harsh / virulent strain of the bacteria than it can look pretty bad pretty quickly.

What kind of shrimp were involved, how long were they in the tank?
What is your maintenance regime for the shrimp and how much/often do you change water?
How often do you feed them, how much?
What is your filtration, how is it setup?

[NOLANANO]

They are neocardina shrimp and most were added about 2 months ago. I have a 75G heavily planted tank so I usually don’t do water changes all that often, maybe once or twice a month. The filter is a sun sun canister filter. And I feed the tank daily.

I did the water change like you suggested and now the water is cloudy and all my fish are breathing heavy. I used double the dechlorinator dose when I did the water change last night and added another dose this morning when the water was still cloudy and the fish looked to be struggling.

I’ve had issues with my tap water for the last several months but the air stone I added had been taking care of what I believe to be a gas exchange issue. Also I did a water change about 3 days prior to my vacation but all the fish seemed fine when I left. The air stone seems a bit clogged now as it only releases tinny bubbles instead of big ones. I may try to get another airstine this morning.
 

if it is bacterial, how do I treat it?

Edited March 2, 2023 by NOLANANO

[NOLANANO]

I got an air stone and the bubbles are big and we are gas exchanging like crazy now lol.

hopefully this is all a result of poor oxygenation/gas exchange since my air stone was clogged. 
 

will update in a few hours.

[Miska]

I would add some of the Co-Op sponge filters to move air and set the air stones in them like Cory recommends in 

 

 

Did you test your water? What are the values and what is the gh/kh? 

[NOLANANO]

So I believe that I figured out some if not all of the issue.  I put leaf litter in my tank a few months back and it has begun to decay. I think the leaf litter raised the ammonia level in the tank and also lowered my PH from about 7.4 to at least 6.  I have removed the leaf litter. Should I do another water change to try to get the PH up again? Or let it be and do smaller water changes over the next few weeks to gradually pick it back up?

[JettsPapa]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:23 AM, NOLANANO said:

So I believe that I figured out some if not all of the issue.  I put leaf litter in my tank a few months back and it has begun to decay. I think the leaf litter raised the ammonia level in the tank and also lowered my PH from about 7.4 to at least 6.  I have removed the leaf litter. Should I do another water change to try to get the PH up again? Or let it be and do smaller water changes over the next few weeks to gradually pick it back up?

Were the leaves dead and brown when you put them in the tank?  If yes, they shouldn't have released any ammonia in the process of decaying.

Adding tannin producing substances, like dead leaves, dry wood, etc, can lower pH, but for it to have been that drastic it's my understanding that your kh would have to be pretty low, which would be bad for neos anyway.

[NOLANANO]

My KH is basically zero according to test strips.😭

Yes the leaves were brown when I put them in and the ammonia honestly may have been me looking for something wrong. I only saw a VERY slight green to the test once and in all honesty it might not have actually had a green tint at all now that I think about it.

how do I fix my mistake and get my KH and PH back to normal?

[JettsPapa]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:36 PM, NOLANANO said:

My KH is basically zero according to test strips.😭

Yes the leaves were brown when I put them in and the ammonia honestly may have been me looking for something wrong. I only saw a VERY slight green to the test once and in all honesty it might not have actually had a green tint at all now that I think about it.

how do I fix my mistake and get my KH and PH back to normal?

Your pH should go back up with water changes.

I'm probably not the best one to ask about getting your kh up, since my water is very hard, so the pH is stable, but I believe you can mineralize the water for your neocaridinas with one of several products made for that purpose.  Salty Shrimp is one I've heard of, but I'm sure there are others.

Hopefully someone else will be able to offer more help.

[knee]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:36 AM, NOLANANO said:

My KH is basically zero according to test strips.😭

Yes the leaves were brown when I put them in and the ammonia honestly may have been me looking for something wrong. I only saw a VERY slight green to the test once and in all honesty it might not have actually had a green tint at all now that I think about it.

how do I fix my mistake and get my KH and PH back to normal?

Have you tested the KH of your tap? Regular water changes can help with this. 

The acids in the leaf litter must've consumed whatever carbonates you have left and caused the PH to crash.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/2/2023 at 6:18 AM, NOLANANO said:

if it is bacterial, how do I treat it?

if there is only shrimp in the tank you'd treat it differently.  I would suggest starting with erythromycin / maracyn (same thing) and following the directions on the package.

If you have fish at the surface gasping, you'd likely want to add an airstone and verify filtration/equipment is functioning.

 

On 3/2/2023 at 12:09 PM, JettsPapa said:

I'm probably not the best one to ask about getting your kh up, since my water is very hard, so the pH is stable, but I believe you can mineralize the water for your neocaridinas with one of several products made for that purpose.  Salty Shrimp is one I've heard of, but I'm sure there are others.

I use seachem alkalinity buffer.  I use a 1/8 tsp scoop. 3 per 5g during a water change.

 

[Mojie]

Did you introduce any new shrimp, fish, or inverts recently? I had a bad experience previously with some sort of bacterial infection absolutely ravaging my tank after introducing a few new shrimp without quarantine (never again). I couldn’t figure it out until I noticed one of the resident guppies had also developed severe fin rot despite seemingly great parameters, presumably caused by whatever bacteria was running amok. I’m in Canada where antibiotics aren’t available OTC so I resorted to several high doses of hydrogen peroxide over a few days and big water changes, which saved the fish and the small handful of surviving shrimp.  

ETA: I pulled my nerites before treating the tank because I can’t find consistent info about their hydrogen peroxide tolerance. 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Mojie
Add info

[NOLANANO]

On 3/2/2023 at 2:14 PM, knee said:

Have you tested the KH of your tap? Regular water changes can help with this. 

The acids in the leaf litter must've consumed whatever carbonates you have left and caused the PH to crash.

I did and my KH of my tap is 80-120 ppm (hard to tell as the colors on the test strip are similar. This is where my tank used to sit. The GH of both the tank and the tap are at 120-180 ppm according to the test strip which also is the same as it has been historically.

[knee]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:10 PM, NOLANANO said:

I did and my KH of my tap is 80-120 ppm (hard to tell as the colors on the test strip are similar. This is where my tank used to sit. The GH of both the tank and the tap are at 120-180 ppm according to the test strip which also is the same as it has been historically.

If your KH reached 0 then you need to do more frequent water changes. Your tap KH is 4.5 - 6.5 which is good for neos. 

Is the tank planted? 

[NOLANANO]

Yes its planted. I have been doing monthly water changes for a while and never had any issues until I added the leaf litter.  I removed it all this morning, am I wrong to think this is the culprit?

The shrimp were reproducing and thriving before the leaves began to breakdown. I noticed a lot more decaying in the last few days than I had previously seen.

Edited March 2, 2023 by NOLANANO

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:50 PM, Mojie said:

Did you introduce any new shrimp, fish, or inverts recently? I had a bad experience previously with some sort of bacterial infection absolutely ravaging my tank after introducing a few new shrimp without quarantine (never again). I couldn’t figure it out until I noticed one of the resident guppies had also developed severe fin rot despite seemingly great parameters, presumably caused by whatever bacteria was running amok. I’m in Canada where antibiotics aren’t available OTC so I resorted to several high doses of hydrogen peroxide over a few days and big water changes, which saved the fish and the small handful of surviving shrimp.  

Id recommend aquarium salt. Very tough situation. 😞

On 3/2/2023 at 1:26 PM, NOLANANO said:

Yes its planted. I have been doing monthly water changes for a while and never had any issues until I added the leaf litter.  I removed it all this morning, am I wrong to think this is the culprit?

The shrimp were reproducing and thriving before the leaves began to breakdown. I noticed a lot more decaying in the last few days than I had previously seen.

How much water? Sounds like OTS.

On 3/2/2023 at 1:24 PM, knee said:

If your KH reached 0 then you need to do more frequent water changes. Your tap KH is 4.5 - 6.5 which is good for neos. 

100%

[knee]

Decaying leaves from the plants also consume carbonates in the water. You can do every other week (or every week) water changes to make sure that your KH doesn't reach 0 and to prevent ph swings.

[Mojie]

On 3/2/2023 at 4:36 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Id recommend aquarium salt. Very tough situation. 😞

I appreciate the sympathy - it was a tough, guilt-inducing reminder to quarantine everything, especially if you live somewhere that makes meds hard/impossible to come by. Salt is definitely a good call, but luckily for me the h2o2 did the trick in my case. Hopefully if OP *is* dealing with something bacterial they’ll have similar luck turning it around. 

[NOLANANO]

I think at the moment I am going to keep an eye on the fish and do weekly 10-15% water changes until my PH and KH are back to normal.