Urgent: Swim Bladder Disease? Next Steps?

[Troy328]

Water Parameters:

• pH - 7.8
• Nitrates - almost 40ppm-ish?
• Hardness - don't remember sorry can test it soon if it's relevant
• Nitrite - 0 ppm
• Ammonia - 0 ppm
• KH/Buffer - also don't remember sorry
• Water Temperature 78F 

First time dealing with what I suspect is swim bladder disease! One of my platies has the signs. I have admittedly fallen behind on some tank maintenance in my platy quarantine tank which has 9 platies plus some babies in there. Initially saw fish at bottom, motionless, inside cave and thought it was dead, but then it started swimming upside down. Seems to be gasping a bit. First thought was Ammonia poisoning, so began a water change, but then slowed down and decided to test first. Came up 0, maaaaybe the smallest trace? But 0 nitrites and higher Nitrates than usual.

What should the next steps be? Do I just do a water change and watch and wait? If so, how big? Should I medicate the tank, and if so, with what? it's already a quarantine tank. I could separate her into an even smaller quarantine tank? Could the nitrates themselves be the cause, or is it an infection? Sorry for so many questions. I Should also mention that I already had to treat the tank for ich, but all signs of that have been gone for two weeks. I was actually getting ready to add these fish to the display tank in two days, but here is yet another setback. Really hoping i can tackle this and keep everyone else healthy. All other fish seem completely fine, even small babies.

 

Thanks in advance. Pictures attached, video will be coming soon

[Troy328]

https://imgur.com/a/iMui9ea

Here is the video link. Most of the time she just rests upside down but in this video she tries to get back upright a bit.

[Colu]

If it's swim bladder that can be caused by the fish overeating and the stomach putting pressure on the swim bladder injury or bacterial infection  high levels of nitrates and ammonia can also effect the swim bladder  if it's the swim bladder what I would do is fast it for a couple of days and do Epsom salt baths 1 table spoon for 2 gallons for no more than 15 minutes as Epsom salt acts as a muscle relaxant to relieve pressure on the swim bladder @Troy328

[Troy328]

Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to try the epsom salt, she did not make it through the night. May she rest in peace.

Everyone else looks healthy. I did a 50% water change last night when I originally posted. Should I preventatively treat the tank with anything at this point? I have already had to treat the tank for ich once, so I am a bit worried about this being a possible secondary infection? But I am also worried about overmedicating if it is not necessary. Also curious how long this should prolong the quarantine process, as they have already been in there six weeks total. (I got the fish Jan 14th, treated for ich Jan 19th-24th, dealt with a brief second treatment for ich from Feb 9th-11th, which could have just been stress ich, last sign of ich was Feb 12th.) Thoughts, anyone? @Colu

[Colu]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:31 PM, Troy328 said:

Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to try the epsom salt, she did not make it through the night. May she rest in peace.

Everyone else looks healthy. I did a 50% water change last night when I originally posted. Should I preventatively treat the tank with anything at this point? I have already had to treat the tank for ich once, so I am a bit worried about this being a possible secondary infection? But I am also worried about overmedicating if it is not necessary. Also curious how long this should prolong the quarantine process, as they have already been in there six weeks total. (I got the fish Jan 14th, treated for ich Jan 19th-24th, dealt with a brief second treatment for ich from Feb 9th-11th, which could have just been stress ich, last sign of ich was Feb 12th.) Thoughts, anyone? @Colu

What I would do is add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending on the quality of the leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a beneficial effect and I would keep your nitrates below 40ppm and monitor if you notice any rapid breathing listlessness hanging near the surface loss of colour then give us an update 

[Troy328]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:10 PM, Colu said:

What I would do is add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending on the quality of the leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a beneficial effect and I would keep your nitrates below 40ppm and monitor if you notice any rapid breathing listlessness hanging near the surface loss of colour then give us an update 

Update: 5 days later and everyone still seems to be doing ok. I had to do daily 25-50% water changes to get back down to a little under 20 ppm. I have noticed just a little bit of breathing at the surface, but it seems to be occasional, and only for 3-5 seconds at a time. Color and activity levels are good. Seems like maybe I'm in the clear? How much longer should I continue to observe them?

[Colu]

On 3/3/2023 at 1:33 AM, Troy328 said:

Update: 5 days later and everyone still seems to be doing ok. I had to do daily 25-50% water changes to get back down to a little under 20 ppm. I have noticed just a little bit of breathing at the surface, but it seems to be occasional, and only for 3-5 seconds at a time. Color and activity levels are good. Seems like maybe I'm in the clear? How much longer should I continue to observe them?

 it looks like it might have been a case of swim bladder if you not seeing any symptoms in your other fish I think you should be fine now 

[Scapexghost]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:31 PM, Troy328 said:

Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to try the epsom salt, she did not make it through the night. May she rest in peace.

Everyone else looks healthy. I did a 50% water change last night when I originally posted. Should I preventatively treat the tank with anything at this point? I have already had to treat the tank for ich once, so I am a bit worried about this being a possible secondary infection? But I am also worried about overmedicating if it is not necessary. Also curious how long this should prolong the quarantine process, as they have already been in there six weeks total. (I got the fish Jan 14th, treated for ich Jan 19th-24th, dealt with a brief second treatment for ich from Feb 9th-11th, which could have just been stress ich, last sign of ich was Feb 12th.) Thoughts, anyone? @Colu

I was going to say that once it gets this bad its probably too late. If its an isolated incedent it couldve been organ failure. I suggest just monitoring for now

[Troy328]

I have an unfortunate update to add to this saga.

I now suspect a parasitic infection or fish TB.

Recap of timeline:

• Jan 14th - New platies, began quarantine
• Jan 19th-24th - Treated for ich
• Feb 9th-11th - Second bout of ich, but could have just been stress ich.
• Feb 24th - Posted thus topic, platy having trouble swimming.
• Feb 25th - Platy passes away

Updates to timeline:

After waiting to see if any new signs or symptoms developed in the otherwise healthy fish, I decided to add them to the display tank with cherry barbs on March 5th, having not seen anything concerning. The transfer process went almost painlessly, although I had one of my male platies jump out of the bucket I was drip acclimating them in. The bucket was on a table, so he jumped off the table and onto the carpeted floor, a big fall for a tiny fish, maybe 4 feet. I picked him up and added him back in to the bucket and he seemed to be completely fine. I decided to pay extra close attention to him and did not notice anything unusual.

 

On March 25th, I noticed the same male platy was swimming slightly slower than the other fish. Small but noticeable difference in activity. I noted that he looked a little bit skinnier than the other fish, and decided once again to keep watching him closely. I fed the tank that day and was relieved to see he was still very interested in food.

On March 26th, I noticed another small drop in activity. Occasionally hanging at the surface, not swimming very much, splitting off from the rest of the fish more often. Fins were a bit clamped. At other times, looked 

On March 27th, I noticed him sitting at the bottom of the tank. He would occasionally swim up to the top of the tank, or swim in the mid-level for a brief period of time, but would always return to rest at the bottom, but he remained completely motionless.

Which brings us to today, March 28th. (coincidentally, my birthday.) Woke up to seeing him on his side at the bottom, occasionally attempting to swim up, but only seems capable of swimming in circles. Body seems to be stuck slightly curved. Seems noticeably skinnier now, especially when compared to pictures of him when I originally got him. Video here: https://imgur.com/a/I4KDUex

 

Not sure what to do at this point. It could be related to when he jumped out, if there was an injury. Skinniness and listlessness seems to point towards parasite to me, but difficulty swimming and curved posture points towards TB. Slow progression of disease, if this is indeed related to the first death, points towards both. I have some of the platy fry in their former quarantine tank, so I will likely be getting myself a new 5/10 gallon tank today as a new quarantine. I don't think he has much longer, but I might need it for some of the other fish, though.

 

Also, I am thinking about getting him sent in to a lab for tests if he passes to determine the cause. If fish TB is probable, I'd like to know sooner rather than later. But if it's not TB, that means it's likely treatable or preventable. Anyone ever have experience with sending fish in before? What would I need to do?

 

Any thoughts/suggestions welcome. Tagging the always-helpful and super responsive @Colu, thank you all in advance!

[Colu]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:53 PM, Troy328 said:

I have an unfortunate update to add to this saga.

I now suspect a parasitic infection or fish TB.

Recap of timeline:

• Jan 14th - New platies, began quarantine
• Jan 19th-24th - Treated for ich
• Feb 9th-11th - Second bout of ich, but could have just been stress ich.
• Feb 24th - Posted thus topic, platy having trouble swimming.
• Feb 25th - Platy passes away

Updates to timeline:

After waiting to see if any new signs or symptoms developed in the otherwise healthy fish, I decided to add them to the display tank with cherry barbs on March 5th, having not seen anything concerning. The transfer process went almost painlessly, although I had one of my male platies jump out of the bucket I was drip acclimating them in. The bucket was on a table, so he jumped off the table and onto the carpeted floor, a big fall for a tiny fish, maybe 4 feet. I picked him up and added him back in to the bucket and he seemed to be completely fine. I decided to pay extra close attention to him and did not notice anything unusual.

 

On March 25th, I noticed the same male platy was swimming slightly slower than the other fish. Small but noticeable difference in activity. I noted that he looked a little bit skinnier than the other fish, and decided once again to keep watching him closely. I fed the tank that day and was relieved to see he was still very interested in food.

On March 26th, I noticed another small drop in activity. Occasionally hanging at the surface, not swimming very much, splitting off from the rest of the fish more often. Fins were a bit clamped. At other times, looked 

On March 27th, I noticed him sitting at the bottom of the tank. He would occasionally swim up to the top of the tank, or swim in the mid-level for a brief period of time, but would always return to rest at the bottom, but he remained completely motionless.

Which brings us to today, March 28th. (coincidentally, my birthday.) Woke up to seeing him on his side at the bottom, occasionally attempting to swim up, but only seems capable of swimming in circles. Body seems to be stuck slightly curved. Seems noticeably skinnier now, especially when compared to pictures of him when I originally got him. Video here: https://imgur.com/a/I4KDUex

 

Not sure what to do at this point. It could be related to when he jumped out, if there was an injury. Skinniness and listlessness seems to point towards parasite to me, but difficulty swimming and curved posture points towards TB. Slow progression of disease, if this is indeed related to the first death, points towards both. I have some of the platy fry in their former quarantine tank, so I will likely be getting myself a new 5/10 gallon tank today as a new quarantine. I don't think he has much longer, but I might need it for some of the other fish, though.

 

Also, I am thinking about getting him sent in to a lab for tests if he passes to determine the cause. If fish TB is probable, I'd like to know sooner rather than later. But if it's not TB, that means it's likely treatable or preventable. Anyone ever have experience with sending fish in before? What would I need to do?

 

Any thoughts/suggestions welcome. Tagging the always-helpful and super responsive @Colu, thank you all in advance!

With the symptoms your describing and the weight loss that point's to a parasitic infection @Odd Duckhas a good treatment protocol for parasitic infections  that I would follow 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Colu

[Troy328]

On 3/28/2023 at 1:58 PM, Colu said:

With the symptoms your describing and the weight loss that point's to a parasitic infection @Odd Duckhas a good treatment protocol for parasitic infections  that I would follow 

This is great stuff, thank you so much! But I have a few questions:

 

I only have ParaCleanse on hand (Praziquantel) and do not have access to Levamisole today, unless Petco surprises me (LFS closed today.)

Will that be enough? Should I just go with that?

Also, should I be treating the whole tank for suspected parasites? Or just any symptomatic fish? I am nervous about my plants, snails, and beneficial bacteria, I don't want to crash the tank by overmedicating, but don't want to take all of the fish out to be quarantined, either. But obviously don't want to lose any more fish, either! Just a bit unsure how to proceed.

[Colu]

If it

On 3/28/2023 at 7:37 PM, Troy328 said:

This is great stuff, thank you so much! But I have a few questions:

 

I only have ParaCleanse on hand (Praziquantel) and do not have access to Levamisole today, unless Petco surprises me (LFS closed today.)

Will that be enough? Should I just go with that?

Also, should I be treating the whole tank for suspected parasites? Or just any symptomatic fish? I am nervous about my plants, snails, and beneficial bacteria, I don't want to crash the tank by overmedicating, but don't want to take all of the fish out to be quarantined, either. But obviously don't want to lose any more fish, either! Just a bit unsure how to proceed.

I would treat all your fish What I would do is start treating with paracleanse instead of prazipro as you have it to hand if you can get levamisole that the active ingredient in Fritz Expel p I would definitely follow @Odd Ducktreatment protocol Expel p is  safe to use with invertebrates I have used praziquantel and levamisole in the past and never had it kill my beneficial bacteria 

[Odd Duck]

Some snails are more sensitive than others and levamisole can really take out snails. I’ve not treated a tank with snails with praziquantel but it is known to affect some snails. The same can be said about shrimp - some appear to be more sensitive than others both by species and by individuals.

I remove snails if I can. I haven’t tried to treat any shrimp tanks but I would be wary of treating all shrimp. Consider removing shrimp and snails as much as possible before deworming.

It is very possible your fish has “TB” AKA Mycoplasmosis infection. Might be more likely with the spinal deformity you’re seeing. 

Unfortunately there isn’t much to be done for Mycoplasma in fish. 

[Troy328]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:14 PM, Odd Duck said:

Some snails are more sensitive than others and levamisole can really take out snails. I’ve not treated a tank with snails with praziquantel but it is known to affect some snails. The same can be said about shrimp - some appear to be more sensitive than others both by species and by individuals.

I remove snails if I can. I haven’t tried to treat any shrimp tanks but I would be wary of treating all shrimp. Consider removing shrimp and snails as much as possible before deworming.

It is very possible your fish has “TB” AKA Mycoplasmosis infection. Might be more likely with the spinal deformity you’re seeing. 

Unfortunately there isn’t much to be done for Mycoplasma in fish. 

Well, now I'm torn. I was considering doing a course or two of paracleanse on my 55 gallon to see if that does anything, but if it kills snails (I have a colony of bladder snails that were  originally an accident that I've grown fond of) AND it has a chance to knock down my beneficial bacteria (says so on the box), AND it might not even actually be parasites causing the problem, AND it would be expensive to treat the whole tank, it makes me a bit hesitant. But I suppose it would be better to do something rather than nothing? I don't even know.

 

Maybe it would be best to get some diagnostic tests done on the little guy if he ends up passing. Once again, I'm curious, does anyone have experience with getting lab tests/autopsies done on a fish? Would they at least be able to rule out mycoplasmosis?

[Troy328]

The fish ended up passing. I have decided to do a round of paracleanse, despite some of my concerns. Doing the first dose today. Will post updates if anything happens.

 

Attached are some pictures that show the difference in the condition in the fish from when I first got him, when I first added him to the tank, and then shortly before his passing (which was quite blurry, but if you look at the belly across the pictures I think it's very noticeable)

[Odd Duck]

I’m sorry for your loss.

I know this might be too late, but the least expensive and most helpful way to get information from a post-mortem exam of your fish would be to submit it to a veterinary university lab for testing.  I don’t know how much it would be, but you should be able to reach out directly to your nearest veterinary school to find out.  The fish should ideally be refrigerated and submitted as quickly as possible after death.  If the fish has already been frozen, it may not be very helpful to send for necropsy.

[Troy328]

Completed second dose of ParaCleanse today, per instructions on the box (dose, 48 hours, dose, 48 hours, water change).

 

Everyone seems to be mostly the same, except now a new platy has a clamped dorsal fin. I could just be paranoid, and maybe it's just stress from pressure from the males, but I'm on high alert now.

 

If I do not see any improvement in her, I will try Expel-P next, will probably try to save a bunch of snails before I do, I don't want the potential of a mass die off to spike my ammonia, even if it's not guaranteed to happen. @Colu seemed to suggest running both more or less at the same time, and doing multiple courses of each medicine.

So if I complete this course of ParaCleanse, and then do a course of Levamisole, should I repeat the process, or is it more likely to be something else at that point?

 

[Troy328]

 

This is the newest patient as of today. Hangs near the top, no gasping. Gills appear red in the picture, but the yellowish platies have always had visibly red gills, especially in certain lighting. Moves less than the other fish, all who are behaving completely normally. Sometimes keeps fins clamped, just like yesterday.

Tests are coming back 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, ~10ppm nitrates.

Here is a picture of the same platy when they were in quarantine:

Really not much ot a difference? Still not sure what to make of this. At a loss.

[Colu]

On 4/2/2023 at 4:48 PM, Troy328 said:

 

This is the newest patient as of today. Hangs near the top, no gasping. Gills appear red in the picture, but the yellowish platies have always had visibly red gills, especially in certain lighting. Moves less than the other fish, all who are behaving completely normally. Sometimes keeps fins clamped, just like yesterday.

Tests are coming back 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, ~10ppm nitrates.

Here is a picture of the same platy when they were in quarantine:

Really not much ot a difference? Still not sure what to make of this. At a loss.

I still think it would be worthwhile treating with Expel p once a week for 3 weeks inbetween treatments of paracleanse 

[Troy328]

New update today:

Female platy that was displaying symptoms is doing simultaneously better and worse. She is showing more signs of activity and fins are less clamped, but she has more rapid gill movement even when hovering in place.

I fed the tank after doing the recommended water change after paracleanse treatment, and noticed she seems very interested in food, but is not swallowing any of it. She keeps trying over and over to eat, but spits it out instantly every time.

Every day, this fish (and really the whole tank) gives me a new surprise. Is this another indication of parasites? Not sure why the breathing now appears labored?

[Colu]

On 4/3/2023 at 5:31 PM, Troy328 said:

New update today:

Female platy that was displaying symptoms is doing simultaneously better and worse. She is showing more signs of activity and fins are less clamped, but she has more rapid gill movement even when hovering in place.

I fed the tank after doing the recommended water change after paracleanse treatment, and noticed she seems very interested in food, but is not swallowing any of it. She keeps trying over and over to eat, but spits it out instantly every time.

Every day, this fish (and really the whole tank) gives me a new surprise. Is this another indication of parasites? Not sure why the breathing now appears labored?

Spitting out food can be a sign of wasting disease that caused by nematode worms that caused irritation to the throat causing the fish to spit food out that why I would treat with Expel p inbetween treatments of paracleanse 

[Troy328]

On 4/3/2023 at 3:48 PM, Colu said:

Spitting out food can be a sign of wasting disease that caused by nematode worms that caused irritation to the throat causing the fish to spit food out that why I would treat with Expel p inbetween treatments of paracleanse 

Alright, good stuff, thank you. I tried the closer of my 2 local fish stores, but they didn't have it. I'll call to see if the other one has it, otherwise I'll just order it online. How long should I let the fish rest between treatments? Or should I just start Expel-P right away?

[Colu]

Finish the first course of paracleanse do a 50% water change add Expel p  week 2 just add Expel p 50% water change week 3 do a course of paracleanse then 50% water change add Expel p week 4  Expel p 50% water change week 5 paracleanse 50% water change  make sure you do a thorough gravel vac after each treatment of Expel p to remove as many  eggs and expelled parasites as you can @Troy328

[Troy328]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:10 PM, Colu said:

Finish the first course of paracleanse do a 50% water change add Expel p  week 2 just add Expel p 50% water change week 3 do a course of paracleanse then 50% water change add Expel p week 4  Expel p 50% water change week 5 paracleanse 50% water change  make sure you do a thorough gravel vac after each treatment of Expel p to remove as many  eggs and expelled parasites as you can @Troy328

Perfect, thank you! I did the Paracleanse water change this morning, so I will try to start Expel-P pretty much as soon as I get it.

 

I have been doing research and seen the drug fenbendazole mentioned for treatment as well. Is that also something to consider if Paracleanse + Expel-P does not work?

 

Thank you again for all of your help thus far 👍

[Colu]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:35 PM, Troy328 said:

Perfect, thank you! I did the Paracleanse water change this morning, so I will try to start Expel-P pretty much as soon as I get it.

 

I have been doing research and seen the drug fenbendazole mentioned for treatment as well. Is that also something to consider if Paracleanse + Expel-P does not work?

 

Thank you again for all of your help thus far 👍

Fenbendazole treats the same types of parasites as levamisole it's needs to be added to food it doesn't have any effect on internal parasites when added to the tank if your seeing no improvement after the treatment of Expel p and paracleanse then I would consider treating with fenbendazole