Theplatymaster Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 @TheSwissAquarist keep us update on the growth of this fish, id like to see what it looks like as it grows up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOtrees Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 Catching this thread late, but I've had endlers before and have seen occasional gold or blonde babies. Maybe 1 in 50 or 1 in 100? And it's definitely a yes or no, not a shades of grey scenario. My colony had a couple of tiger endlers in the mix (guppy genes), and was not pure wild-type. I wonder if that brightness from the tigers is what causes this switch to flip? @TheSwissAquarist does your group have the tigers? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 4:11 PM, TOtrees said: Catching this thread late, but I've had endlers before and have seen occasional gold or blonde babies. Maybe 1 in 50 or 1 in 100? And it's definitely a yes or no, not a shades of grey scenario. My colony had a couple of tiger endlers in the mix (guppy genes), and was not pure wild-type. I wonder if that brightness from the tigers is what causes this switch to flip? @TheSwissAquarist does your group have the tigers? My theory (definitely not a geneticist or even had a gold) but could it be recessive albinism or no/ low production of pigments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOtrees Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 6:14 PM, The endler guy said: My theory (definitely not a geneticist or even had a gold) but could it be recessive albinism or no/ low production of pigments? If @The endler guy said it, it must be true. They are the endler guy, after all. 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 6:25 PM, TOtrees said: If @The endler guy said it, it must be true. They are the endler guy, after all. 🤣 My self photo exposed!!!😱 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theplatymaster Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 7:16 PM, The endler guy said: My self photo exposed!!!😱 so the endler must shoot water out of its mouth like an archerfish to type... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 15, 2023 Author Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 10:11 PM, TOtrees said: Catching this thread late, but I've had endlers before and have seen occasional gold or blonde babies. Maybe 1 in 50 or 1 in 100? And it's definitely a yes or no, not a shades of grey scenario. My colony had a couple of tiger endlers in the mix (guppy genes), and was not pure wild-type. I wonder if that brightness from the tigers is what causes this switch to flip? @TheSwissAquarist does your group have the tigers? Nope. 😂 The dad: On 2/14/2023 at 9:49 PM, Theplatymaster said: @TheSwissAquarist keep us update on the growth of this fish, id like to see what it looks like as it grows up. You’re not the only one…😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 12:46 AM, TheSwissAquarist said: Nope. 😂 The dad: You’re not the only one…😁 Technically if albinism is a recessive trait then the dad could be heterozygous Aa and still not express the trait, kinda nullified the fact that the baby doesn’t have a red eye On 2/14/2023 at 7:18 PM, Theplatymaster said: so the endler must shoot water out of its mouth like an archerfish to type... Na I use my little pectoral fins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 15, 2023 Author Share Posted February 15, 2023 Did I mention? I’ve found a third one I think @Fish Folk did some guppy genetic thing a while back. Maybe this could be applied to Endlers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 5:53 AM, TheSwissAquarist said: Did I mention? I’ve found a third one I think @Fish Folk did some guppy genetic thing a while back. Maybe this could be applied to Endlers? Definitely could apply to endlers! I have ap bio today so I may ask my teacher about it (especially because we are doing genetics/ dna!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 15, 2023 Author Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 11:58 AM, The endler guy said: have ap bio today so I may ask my teacher about it (especially because we are doing genetics/ dna! Please do, my science teacher may have tested human meds on rats and monkeys; but knows nada on genes. 🧬 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 You also could try isolating the mother and father from the rest to determine the radio of gold to regular fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 15, 2023 Author Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 12:02 PM, The endler guy said: You also could try isolating the mother and father from the rest to determine the radio of gold to regular fry There’s about 5 or 6 females in that tank and I have no idea who the mother is. All I know is that the females are uniformly grey. I started this colony with 1 male, 2 females; and I think this is my 5th generation. Jeez they breed fast! P.S. Have fun at school @The endler guy. It’s the holidays over here. 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theplatymaster Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 @TheSwissAquaristwinter break? On 2/15/2023 at 6:05 AM, TheSwissAquarist said: Jeez they breed fast! thats livebearers for you when i first got platies, i didnt realize i bought i pregnant fish, 3days later, completely out of the blue i had fry. if you had the space/time it would be awesome if you could experiment with this. Take each female, isolate it for a few months, introduce it to one male, check the offspring, repeat for every female, crossing every female with every male, as i said tim consuming and space needing. On 2/15/2023 at 5:58 AM, The endler guy said: I have ap bio today so I may ask my teacher about it (especially because we are doing genetics/ dna!) lucky! i did "life science" last year, and am doing Biology next year, but this year im on chemistry 😒 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 6:16 AM, Theplatymaster said: @TheSwissAquaristwinter break? thats livebearers for you when i first got platies, i didnt realize i bought i pregnant fish, 3days later, completely out of the blue i had fry. if you had the space/time it would be awesome if you could experiment with this. Take each female, isolate it for a few months, introduce it to one male, check the offspring, repeat for every female, crossing every female with every male, as i said tim consuming and space needing. lucky! i did "life science" last year, and am doing Biology next year, but this year im on chemistry 😒 I did bio gt, chem gt and now physics ap and bio ap On 2/15/2023 at 6:05 AM, TheSwissAquarist said: There’s about 5 or 6 females in that tank and I have no idea who the mother is. All I know is that the females are uniformly grey. I started this colony with 1 male, 2 females; and I think this is my 5th generation. Jeez they breed fast! P.S. Have fun at school @The endler guy. It’s the holidays over here. 😂 Haha lol, I have science Olympiad from today to Saturday (I have to stay after and then come In Saturday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 I do not have enough experience with Poecilia genetics to be dogmatic here. But it’s a fun thing to find specially colored fry anywhere! (1) If it has a red eye, this is an occurrence of albinism. This does occur, and can be passed along. But may lie recessive and unexpressed for generations. (2) If it is white but without a red eye, this may be a form of leucism. I happen to have a Mountain Redbelly Dace with what appears to be leucistic coloration... Compared to normal fry… (3) Xanthism is a slightly different condition that renders fish bright yellow / gold. For example, I have a sport fish (largemouth bass) mounted on the wall of my fishroom — I caught it as a kid… Just in the news yesterday, I came across an article featuring a xanthic bass caught in a river in Virginia… (4) Golden body forms are reasonably common in the world of Guppies. Whether that is “xanthism” or just other genetic factors, I cannot say. Certain genetic traits are directly transferrable from parent to offspring. Other traits show up in 2nd generation offspring. (5) To bring out traits among Livebearers, I know that pulling, separating, snd culling is essential. I bought some guppies this past year… But once fry began to develop, the colors were all over the place… However, my son found a single pair of fry that express some nice colors we we aimed for. And he promptly stole them for his tank 😂 … (6) To begin down the road with Punnet Squares to predict genetic traits in offspring, you need to understand that this is just the very start of a much more complex puzzle. @Theplatymaster asked about platy genetics on another thread. I’ll start to answer here. Let’s say, for example, that you want to breed fish with blue fins. But you have one parent with blue fins and another with yellow fins. Fin color is just one trait among many variables. But when they cross, if mendellian genetics holds in its simplest form, the dominant / non-dominant traits could look like this: -1- let Yellow be a dominant color, and Blue be non-dominant -2- let one parent be: b / b — expressing Blue as both genetic fin color variables, and let the other parent be: Y / Y — expressing Yellow as both genetic fin color variables. (Note: typically this is _not_ the starting point, but for _simplicity_ this will be the easiest place to begin) -3- the crossing could be expressed like this (pardon the nasty hand-written graphic)… In this scenario, _all four quarters of the fry will _appear_ Yellow. But now, when these fry are crossed, the most basic expression looks like this… Here, the lower right square shows up as the desired: b / b. In other words, 25% of these fry will be blue-finned. But now if you cross these: b / b with each other, 100% of those fry (third generation from start) will be all blue-finned because… (7) This gets so, so complicated because female Poecilia hold onto milt from multiple males, and can mix those genes in along the way if they ever have been exposed to other lines. I’d explain more, but have to go care for kids just now. (They have my crazy genes 🤣🤣🤣) 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 8:12 AM, Fish Folk said: I do not have enough experience with Poecilia genetics to be dogmatic here. But it’s a fun thing to find specially colored fry anywhere! (1) If it has a red eye, this is an occurrence of albinism. This does occur, and can be passed along. But may lie recessive and unexpressed for generations. (2) If it is white but without a red eye, this may be a form of leucism. I happen to have a Mountain Redbelly Dace with what appears to be leucistic coloration... Compared to normal fry… (3) Xanthism is a slightly different condition that renders fish bright yellow / gold. For example, I have a sport fish (largemouth bass) mounted on the wall of my fishroom — I caught it as a kid… Just in the news yesterday, I came across an article featuring a xanthic bass caught in a river in Virginia… (4) Golden body forms are reasonably common in the world of Guppies. Whether that is “xanthism” or just other genetic factors, I cannot say. Certain genetic traits are directly transferrable from parent to offspring. Other traits show up in 2nd generation offspring. (5) To bring out traits among Livebearers, I know that pulling, separating, snd culling is essential. I bought some guppies this past year… But once fry began to develop, the colors were all over the place… However, my son found a single pair of fry that express some nice colors we we aimed for. And he promptly stole them for his tank 😂 … (6) To begin down the road with Punnet Squares to predict genetic traits in offspring, you need to understand that this is just the very start of a much more complex puzzle. @Theplatymaster asked about platy genetics on another thread. I’ll start to answer here. Let’s say, for example, that you want to breed fish with blue fins. But you have one parent with blue fins and another with yellow fins. Fin color is just one trait among many variables. But when they cross, if mendellian genetics holds in its simplest form, the dominant / non-dominant traits could look like this: -1- let Yellow be a dominant color, and Blue be non-dominant -2- let one parent be: b / b — expressing Blue as both genetic fin color variables, and let the other parent be: Y / Y — expressing Yellow as both genetic fin color variables. (Note: typically this is _not_ the starting point, but for _simplicity_ this will be the easiest place to begin) -3- the crossing could be expressed like this (pardon the nasty hand-written graphic)… In this scenario, _all four quarters of the fry will _appear_ Yellow. But now, when these fry are crossed, the most basic expression looks like this… Here, the lower right square shows up as the desired: b / b. In other words, 25% of these fry will be blue-finned. But now if you cross these: b / b with each other, 100% of those fry (third generation from start) will be all blue-finned because… (7) This gets so, so complicated because female Poecilia hold onto milt from multiple males, and can mix those genes in along the way if they ever have been exposed to other lines. I’d explain more, but have to go care for kids just now. (They have my crazy genes 🤣🤣🤣) Yay punett squares!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 15, 2023 Author Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 12:16 PM, Theplatymaster said: Take each female, isolate it for a few months, introduce it to one male, check the offspring, repeat for every female, crossing every female with every male, as i said tim consuming and space needing Could work, but the amount of time I would spend doing water changes would be phenomenal 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theplatymaster Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 10:19 AM, TheSwissAquarist said: Could work, but the amount of time I would spend doing water changes would be phenomenal 😂 i never said this was a good idea, just if you REALLY wanted to test it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 15, 2023 Author Share Posted February 15, 2023 Thanks for typing all that out @Fish Folk! Really appreciate you taking the time to explain it all. All I need to do now is wait for the gold fry to be big enough to tell if they’re Xanthic or Leucistic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 My teacher is leaning more towards xanthism over the other option, due to the fact it is more yellow than no pigmentation, then again as she said she doesn’t know much about the fish in general 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theplatymaster Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/15/2023 at 12:14 PM, The endler guy said: then again as she said she doesn’t know much about the fish in general who does? unless they are a fishkeeping hobbyist, some sort of biologist, or a conservationist 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 Todays pic: 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theplatymaster Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) nice! looking healthy! Edited February 19, 2023 by Theplatymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwissAquarist Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 4:21 PM, Theplatymaster said: eat the algae little endler! Watch it! 😤😜 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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