Lowering PH in established aquarium

[Desktop Aquatics]

I am acquiring a new pair of Ivanacara Adoketa and I know very well that they need to be at least in 6.2ph and currently my tanks PH is sitting around 7.6. I plan on starting to use RO water from a local store and eventually getting an RODI system. Will this lower my PH switching from my tap to RO water and using a large amount of botanicals? I already use leaf litter, is there other tricks to lower this PH safely? I will be updating as I start switching to RO water but will be happy receiving any tips and tricks to tackle this problem!

[itsfoxtail]

I'd have two initial questions:

Do you know what your KH is?

Are there any fish currently stocked in the tank?

 

[Desktop Aquatics]

@itsfoxtail I currently have a pair of apistos and cardinal tetras, however they are going to be rehomed soon since I am acquiring these Ivanacara Adoketa and will be only them in this tank. My KH is 140ppm or 8 drops of the API test kit, I figured the RO water would also decrease this.

[tolstoy21]

The RO water will reduce the KH via dilution which should start to influence your Ph downward.

I keep my adoketa in straight RO water with leaf litter and peat moss. In my experience they can handle a Ph down into the 4s.

I would do a big water change with RO water and add your botanicals before you receive them to at least get the Ph down into the 6 range and just acclimate them as you’d acclimate any fish.  Then continue to change out water till you hit your target Ph.

I’m not sure what their upper range limit is in terms of Ph, but they do like to breed in very acidic conditions with little to no mineral content in the water. 

[itsfoxtail]

@tolstoy21 Couldn't have said it any better myself! Have you ever had any problem long-term not re-mineralizing at all? I've seen a slow decline in fish in pure RO all the time unless I add just a tad of minerals here and there. 

On 11/13/2022 at 7:47 PM, Desktop Aquatics said:

@itsfoxtail I currently have a pair of apistos and cardinal tetras, however they are going to be rehomed soon since I am acquiring these Ivanacara Adoketa and will be only them in this tank. My KH is 140ppm or 8 drops of the API test kit, I figured the RO water would also decrease this.

I'd just be careful to make sure the other fish are either already rehomed if you do a massive water change, or do several smaller ones to bring down the ph just so you don't send them into shock. Apistos and tetras wouldn't mind/would like the lower ph but I'd still do it at least remotely gradual if they're in there. (i.e. several 15%-20% instead of a large 80%). 

[Desktop Aquatics]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:04 PM, tolstoy21 said:

The RO water will reduce the KH via dilution which should start to influence your Ph downward.

I keep my adoketa in straight RO water with leaf litter and peat moss. In my experience they can handle a Ph down into the 4s.

I would do a big water change with RO water and add your botanicals before you receive them to at least get the Ph down into the 6 range and just acclimate them as you’d acclimate any fish.  Then continue to change out water till you hit your target Ph.

I’m not sure what their upper range limit is in terms of Ph, but they do like to breed in very acidic conditions with little to no mineral content in the water. 

Thank you! I kinda expected that and glad to have that confirmed! these are captive bred so I am sure they can tolerate slightly higher PH's but I did plan on keeping them in the 5-6 range! 

On 11/13/2022 at 7:12 PM, itsfoxtail said:

@tolstoy21 Couldn't have said it any better myself! Have you ever had any problem long-term not re-mineralizing at all? I've seen a slow decline in fish in pure RO all the time unless I add just a tad of minerals here and there. 

I'd just be careful to make sure the other fish are either already rehomed if you do a massive water change, or do several smaller ones to bring down the ph just so you don't send them into shock. Apistos and tetras wouldn't mind/would like the lower ph but I'd still do it at least remotely gradual if they're in there. (i.e. several 15%-20% instead of a large 80%). 

Totally Agree, I wasn't going to be make the swing into this with the fish in the tank. I had  more or less planned on getting them out and rehomed then worrying about the water and trying to nail that in before I receive them! Thank you guys for the helpful tips! I will keep everyone posted on how this goes! super excited for these little guys I have wanted them since I laid eyes on them a few years ago!

[itsfoxtail]

@Desktop Aquatics They are absolutely stunning fish! Probably nothing I'd ever keep but I can live vicariously through you! Can't wait to see pics!

[tolstoy21]

On 11/13/2022 at 9:12 PM, itsfoxtail said:

@tolstoy21 Couldn't have said it any better myself! Have you ever had any problem long-term not re-mineralizing at all? I've seen a slow decline in fish in pure RO all the time unless I add just a tad of minerals here and there. 

I haven't seen a decline yet. For the Adoketa, I have read that their typical environment is full of decaying leaves and twigs and has a natural Ph of between 3 and 4 and a dGh of 0 to 1.  The specific fish I have are F1 from wild caught and as far as I could tell the breeder kept them in very soft water.

I had them in the 6s for a short spell and they were fine, but I am trying to breed these so I have their Ph bottomed out and have been running their water pretty pure. It wouldn't be too hard, and perhaps not a bad idea, for me to periodically give them a touch of mineral hardness. 

How long was it before you noticed decline in your blackwater species? What did that decline look like? I've had my adoketa for probably a year now.

The only other blackwater species I have is also an F1 from wild caught. Apistogramma Abacaxis.  I have read they will only breed in a Ph near 4, but I do not know if this is just a seasonal thing or a long term preference for this species.

Supposedly Abacaxis are tolerant of higher Ph ranges and water hardness and I do have plans of acclimating my current batch of fry to more 'typical' planted aquarium parameters once they are a little older. I could probably do the same with the parents in the tank, if in fact, their blackwater preference is simply rainy season breeding preference. 

Anyway, thanks for the 'heads up' in sharing your experience.

@Desktop Aquatics Good luck with these!  I absolutely love this species!  Feel free to ask me any questions about them. I'm no expert, that's for sure, but if I have anything helpful to share, I'd be glad to do so.

[itsfoxtail]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:36 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I haven't seen a decline yet. For the Adoketa, I have read that their typical environment is full of decaying leaves and twigs and has a natural Ph of between 3 and 4 and a dGh of 0 to 1.  The specific fish I have are F1 from wild caught and as far as I could tell the breeder kept them in very soft water.

I had them in the 6s for a short spell and they were fine, but I am trying to breed these so I have their Ph bottomed out and have been running their water pretty pure. It wouldn't be too hard, and perhaps not a bad idea, for me to periodically give them a touch of mineral hardness. 

How long was it before you noticed decline in your blackwater species? What did that decline look like? I've had my adoketa for probably a year now.

The only other blackwater species I have is also an F1 from wild caught. Apistogramma Abacaxis.  I have read they will only breed in a Ph near 4, but I do not know if this is just a seasonal thing or a long term preference for this species.

Supposedly Abacaxis are tolerant of higher Ph ranges and water hardness and I do have plans of acclimating my current batch of fry to more 'typical' planted aquarium parameters once they are a little older. I could probably do the same with the parents in the tank, if in fact, their blackwater preference is simply rainy season breeding preference. 

Anyway, thanks for the 'heads up' in sharing your experience.

I've never kept a species that needed quite that low of ph so that could definitely be why mine didn't do as well. (And I'm definitely no pro so take my experiences with a grain of salt.) I tried an experimental blackwater setup for more common fish: rams, cardinal tetras, and rummynose (nothing too crazy; right around 5-5.5 ph or so). They did fine for about a year but I noticed one day they seemed to be slowly becoming more sluggish. They would go after the food just a tad less voraciously. Maybe it was my imagination but I swore they were breathing a little more labored. 

Nothing super obvious or out of the ordinary but I think most fishkeepers just kind of ... idk "feel" it when something is off. I tested just about everything, tried little changes here and there of things that I wondered if it was: maybe the new food? too much flow? needed more leaf litter? Finally I threw in just a little tiny pinch of Seachem Equilibrium into a water change. Within an hour they were all back to their old selves, rummynose zoomin' around, rams being feisty as ever.

The TDS for the tank was somewhere around 35 or so and with the minerals it only bumped it up to like 50 before it dropped over the coming days/weeks but I swear by it now. Once a month I just throw in a little pinch and I've seen no decline since. It definitely could be my own imagination or the fact that these fish are probably multiple generations away from their wild counterparts but I suppose whatever works, right? Makes me wonder if it's beneficial to mimic rainy/off seasons in the aquarium. Or more likely I'm thinking way too far into this, lol.

I won't lie I had to google the Abacaxis because I've never heard of it and it is a beaut! I swear I see a new Apisto almost every day now, haha!

[Johannes]

I have had good succes keeping adoketas between 6.5-7.5ph but have had no breeding.

[tolstoy21]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:24 PM, itsfoxtail said:

Finally I threw in just a little tiny pinch of Seachem Equilibrium into a water change.

Cool. I have some Equilibrium laying around. I'll try putting a pinch in next time I change water. I also have SaltyShrimp Gh+ on hand which could work as well. Neither of these move the needle on Kh, so acidity won't be affected. 

On 11/15/2022 at 3:30 PM, Johannes said:

I have had good succes keeping adoketas between 6.5-7.5ph but have had no breeding.

Yeah to keep and enjoy as a species, I believe they do fine at something closer to a neutral Ph.

Edited November 15, 2022 by tolstoy21

[itsfoxtail]

On 11/15/2022 at 5:22 PM, tolstoy21 said:

 I also have SaltyShrimp Gh+ on hand which could work as well. Neither of these move the needle on Kh, so acidity won't be affected. 

 

I've been curious about using the SaltyShrimp minerals on a "regular fish" aquarium. If you do so let me know how it goes!

[tolstoy21]

@itsfoxtail

Chickend out and just used Equilibrium.  But I can't imagine a reason why one couldn't use it.