Would like some second opinions (bettas and corydora)

[KatGoneFishing]

A few months into the hobby and I've got a couple minor concerns about some of my fish that I can't quite figure out on my own and would appreciate some second opinions on what may be happening and what I might be able to do, if anything. Any insight would be appreciated!

All parameters are taken using the ACO test strips, API ammonia liquid test, and a meat thermometer. All tanks except the hospital and quarantine tank are planted, with snails (bladder and ramshorn), and shrimp.

First up is Teal'c, I've had him for about two months. When I got him, he had a few discolored scales and a damaged ventral fin, but was otherwise active and healthy-seeming. The pale spots weren't truly white in person, just a very pale blue, and there was no dimension to them, so they didn't seem to be a disease, just discolored scales. He went into a 10gal tank with 8 ember tetras that he was not super thrilled about, but has tolerated well enough. Over time he's developed more discolored scales and I caught him flashing last week, so he's currently in a 5gal hospital tank following a round of paracleanse, since I figured parasites of some sort might be the more likely suspect if it's not just irritation from the hair algae that I'm currently battling in the 10gal. Since then, I at least haven't caught him flashing. His activity and appetite have been great, but when he's not actively swimming, he's starting to tilt face up and he'll rest on the bottom of the tank in odd positions. He's a halfmoon plakat, so it shouldn't be an issue of fin weight pulling him down. The embers have not shown any sign of illness or discomfort besides being a little skittish in general, though I did suddenly lose one a few days after moving Teal'c to the hospital tank.

Original 10gal parameters:

Temp: 77/78F
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrtie: 0
GH: 300
kH: 120-180
pH: 7.2ish

Hospital tank parameters:

Temp: 83F* (now about 79F)
Ammonia: 0.25ppm (has been 0 previously, may be an effect of the paracleanse)
Nitrate: 0
Nitrtie: 0
GH: 300
kH: 120ish
pH: 7.2ish

*I'm so glad I just checked this, omg. My heated tanks usually use the ACO heaters, but this one was put together a bit last minute, so I just grabbed a preset Fluval heater from the LFS that supposed to be a 76-78F temp, which seemed perfect given the original tank is set at 77F. I wonder if the temp is part of why he's resting a lot, that was a bit warm even for a betta. Heater is now off and he'll just have to deal with room temp (74F avg) until I can get another Co-op heater.)

First and second pics are day of/day after I got him originally, you can see some of the discolored spots and the damaged ventral fin. Third pic is from yesterday.

These next two pics were taken about twenty seconds apart yesterday or the day before. He swam down, paused, went nose up/tail down, and just...listed into a curve and stayed there for a bit. I've never seen him do this in the 10gal, only in the hospital tank. I turned off the filter, wondering if it was too much flow in the smaller tank (it's a small sponge filter with an air stone). I turned it back on this morning and adjusted the airflow down a little bit more, since I didn't want the water to be still for too long, either. I'm now wondering if the heater had something to do with it, too.

 

Second betta is Beebles (short for Beelzebub, Destroyer of Worlds; a friend named him lol), a FB marketplace find that I've had for about three weeks. I wouldn't be concerned about him, except one of his gill covers, the operculum, is either swollen or being pushed out, so he's a bit lopsided looking. It doesn't seem to affect his activity, he eats like a pig, no problems swimming. He's currently in my 10gal quarantine tank alone. I can't see any growths or additional redness or anything, it's just sticking out. If it's something I can help him with, I'd like to, but I'm not sure what to try or if it's something that's not a concern so long as he's otherwise doing well.

Quarantine tank parameters:

Temp: 77/78F
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0-10
Nitrite: 0
GH: 300
kH: 80-120
pH: 7.2ish

 

And the last fish of concern is one of my albino cories. I have six, they were in the quarantine tank for about a month and a half before being moved to my 20gal community which already had three honey gourami in residence. In the quarantine tank, everyone was doing well, eating and active, fins looked great. After moving into the 20gal, though, there's one cory in particular that has developed a ragged dorsal fin and sits with fins somewhat clamped. Generally active, no issues swimming. I have seen him eat, but he's looking a lot skinnier than the others and I'm wondering if he's just not getting enough food, since the 20gal has a lot more snails than the quarantine tank does and they will mob the wafers I feed. The other possibility is just water quality, since this tank does need a water change. I had been holding off for a bit due to honey gourami fry, so it went longer than usual between water changes. So the water is a bit softer/lower pH than it usually is, it's normally more in line with the other tanks. 

20gal parameters:

Temp: unheated, currently about 73/74F
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0-5
Nitrite: 0
GH: 75-150ish
kH: 40
pH: 6.4ishish

October 1st, five of them a few days after being moved into the 20gal, you can already see the ragged dorsal on the one at the bottom of the pic.

October 5/6th.

And this was just now.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by KatGoneFishing
duplicate pics

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:50 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

20gal parameters:

Temp: unheated, currently about 73/74F
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0-5
Nitrite: 0
GH: 75-150ish
kH: 40
pH: 6.4ishish

Parameters for the corydoras seem very solid.  If anything, it could be a feeding issue (not getting enough of some type of nutrient) or it could just be something that is lingering and been bothering the fish for a while now.  I would suggest treating for bacterial and dosing in some aquarium salt (if possible) for that tank.  One treatment and then monitor to see if you have any improvement.

Verify that the tank itself doesn't have sharp edges on hardscape and particularly keep an eye on the belly, barbels, and parts of the fish that will most commonly be dragged along the substrate and hardscapes.

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/15/2022 at 6:25 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Parameters for the corydoras seem very solid.  If anything, it could be a feeding issue (not getting enough of some type of nutrient) or it could just be something that is lingering and been bothering the fish for a while now.  I would suggest treating for bacterial and dosing in some aquarium salt (if possible) for that tank.  One treatment and then monitor to see if you have any improvement.

The wafers I'm feeding are the Bug Bites algae crisps, which are at least decently high in protein content and seem to be marketed towards cories and such. I have Repashy Grub Pie and Soilent Green on hand, as well.

I do have Maracyn on hand and can dose that. Aquarium salt I'm a bit unsure of, since the tank is pretty well planted. If a mild dosage might be alright for the plants, I can give that a try, as well.

 

On 10/15/2022 at 6:25 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Verify that the tank itself doesn't have sharp edges on hardscape and particularly keep an eye on the belly, barbels, and parts of the fish that will most commonly be dragged along the substrate and hardscapes.

There isn't much that would constitute a sharp edge in the tank, just a couple of tight squeeze spots that they seem perfectly willing to wedge themselves into, which I thought might be the cause except that it wouldn't explain the skinniness. I am planning to adjust those spots the next time I get my hands in there. But they are currently on mostly Seachem flourite black, which I know is a bit debated on whether it's good for cories or not. I hadn't been noticing any barbel damage so far, but looking at them again, the one I'm concerned about does have some - he seems to be missing a set. Going back through pics, it looks likes he may have been missing them the whole time, or at least for longer than he's been in the 20gal, though. I have a pic of them in the quarantine tank and there is one with minimal barbels and the pic in my original post from Oct 1 shows the lack of full barbels, as well, just days after moving them over. At least four of the other five have good looking barbels, though, so he's either unlucky or something may have happened with him specifically.

Bellies seem to be clear on the ones I could see.

I did see that of the five I was seeing just now (number 6 was tucked into one of the favored hiding spots) that three of them, including the one I'm worried about, seem to have smaller/stunted/damaged? pelvic and anal fins. Two of them have fins that are much larger. I actually had to go back to the day I got them to find a picture that gave me a decent idea whether they came like that or if it's something that's happened since I've had them and, at the very least, some of it's happened since I got them. From today's member guest speaker, I have to wonder if it may be because the quarantine tank was a bare bottom tank or if it's something that's only happened since they went on the flourite. I'm not looking to breed them, at least, but it's not great thinking I may have been the cause of at least some of the damage. Not sure if those fins can regrow at all, either. 😕

Today:

The day I got them (I suspect the one in the upper middle of the pic is the one I'm currently worried about, the barbels don't seem as full):

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:10 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

I do have Maracyn on hand and can dose that. Aquarium salt I'm a bit unsure of, since the tank is pretty well planted. If a mild dosage might be alright for the plants, I can give that a try, as well.

Some plants won't do well at all but some wi tolerate it. I don't know which will be ok with the treatment.  On the last time I had to dose it the hairgrass didn't like it one bit.

Bug bites is good for them. They also like the soilent green and can lean more towards the omnivore foods. They like to graze and it sounds like the foods you have work well for them.

On 10/15/2022 at 8:10 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

But they are currently on mostly Seachem flourite black, which I know is a bit debated on whether it's good for cories or not.

That is what mine are one, it's ok for them. It's a clay based substrate and not sharp.

On 10/15/2022 at 8:10 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

just a couple of tight squeeze spots that they seem perfectly willing to wedge themselves into, which I thought might be the cause except that it wouldn't explain the skinniness.

I don't think that would cause an issue, not generally. By skinniness what do you mean? Sunken belly or just generally not looking stuffed to the gills? In terms of activity is the one that is skinny not moving around at all?  Is that the one with the damaged fins?

Barbels could have received damage for a variety of reasons, like you mentioned the bare bottom tank can irritate their mouths. Depending on how damaged they are it could've happened long before they arrived in your care and were at a point where they couldn't regrow.

I will grab the laptop and try to zoom in and examine all the photos closely to see.  Simple things like ammonia burn and nitrites can cause the same types of things your seeing and as mentioned, it could be something lingering that they never fully recovered from.  It is the type of situation where I view it as the meds won't hurt or harm anything and it's a possible solution to the injury and get them over the hump to be able to recover.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:10 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

I'm just guessing that the one we're looking at here is the one on the far right of this photo.  It looks like it might be the smaller male of the group and literally could just be one that has to get a bit of courage to get some food.  Some things that help is when you feed repashy, wafers, etc. try to break it up slightly so that 2-3 different spots in the tank can have some.  Especially with wafer type of foods, if you see a non-dominant fish unable to eat that usually helps.  When you're feeding something like the bug bites, feed the group, then try to target feed in the spot where you see the lethargic fish and then observe if he eats. 

The fin damage could be from breeding, but what catches my eye is simply the clamped fins and the lethargy.  When Corydoras aren't feeling all too great and they hide in that fashion it's a concern.  Something as simple as temp, an airstone, salt, or a food could perk them back up.  It could be a bacterial thing (wounds from mating) or it could be an internal parasite.

You can run the fish through meds in a seperate tub / tank if that's an option, or you can treat the whole tank.  You can also simply observe it and keep an eye on things.  Something like a salt bath might be a great way to handle it as well if you are comfortable moving the fish when need be.  (do a ton of research on how to do this, but it's generally a very safe thing to do with aquarium salt, especially in lower levels).  I have given my corydoras the dose Cory recommended in his 800G ich video without any issues.  As he mentions, it's the dose the store uses and it's right around the "level 2" dose in the blog article below.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish

This is for dosing a tank, not necessarily a salt bath for the fish.

If you aren't running an airstone in the tank already, I would add one.  The corydoras do really well with them and you might get some fun behavior of them playing in the flow / oxygenation.

EDIT:  Sorry, I forgot to mention.  I do not see severe damage to the barbels on any of the corydoras in the photos. Some might be shorter or longer, but the damage (if that's what you mean) shouldn't be permanent and they should recover.

From elsewhere, regarding the pectoral fin damage:
 

Quote

If the soft area in the fin is damaged, it will grow back. It is called the leading ray. However, if the hard part of the fin, the leading spine, is damaged, it will not grow back.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:30 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

That is what mine are one, it's ok for them. It's a clay based substrate and not sharp.

I was seeing mixed feedback on it, but yeah, haven't really seen much damage that I can attribute directly to the flourite, so I'm not terribly concerned in that aspect, at least.

On 10/15/2022 at 8:30 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

By skinniness what do you mean? Sunken belly or just generally not looking stuffed to the gills? In terms of activity is the one that is skinny not moving around at all?  Is that the one with the damaged fins?

Definitely not as fat as the others. Actual sunken belly is difficult to determine, since I don't get to see their bellies as much, but what I'm seeing is more from the top down: where the others' sides are gently curved from tip to tail, this one gets skinnier past the main head/gills area. I'll see if I can manage a decent pic that shows it. Activity-wise, he doesn't seem to be too much less active than the others, just different when he's at rest, since he's got more clamped fins and such, but he does tend to be one of the ones tucking himself into the protected areas more. He does have the smaller/damaged pelvic and anal fins along with the ragged dorsal, yes. At least two of the others have the same pelvic/anal fin issue, but are otherwise looking plump, being active, no barbel issues.

On 10/15/2022 at 8:50 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'm just guessing that the one we're looking at here is the one on the far right of this photo.  It looks like it might be the smaller male of the group and literally could just be one that has to get a bit of courage to get some food.  Some things that help is when you feed repashy, wafers, etc. try to break it up slightly so that 2-3 different spots in the tank can have some.  Especially with wafer type of foods, if you see a non-dominant fish unable to eat that usually helps.  When you're feeding something like the bug bites, feed the group, then try to target feed in the spot where you see the lethargic fish and then observe if he eats. 

The fin damage could be from breeding, but what catches my eye is simply the clamped fins and the lethargy.  When Corydoras aren't feeling all too great and they hide in that fashion it's a concern.  Something as simple as temp, an airstone, salt, or a food could perk them back up.  It could be a bacterial thing (wounds from mating) or it could be an internal parasite.

That's the one, yep. I'll try adjusting the feeding to give him more chances at it, though he hasn't seemed too shy about at least going to the food. Maybe he's getting pushed out by either the others or the snails when he does go for it. A single wafer seemed to be enough in the quarantine tank, but in the 20gal, I might need to feed more to ensure everyone's getting enough. The snails in there are bigger and more numerous than they were in the quarantine and between that and the general dynamics, it can't hurt. At the very least, feeding in different spots is a good idea, thank you.

I do have an airstone in the sponge filter, but I can add a second to the tank easily enough. You did say that the parameters looked good, but they are currently different from what is normally in there and what they got used to in the quarantine tank, so I wonder if he just had a bad reaction to the change, as well. Temp should be about the same, since both tanks were/are unheated. I did have a bit of an ammonia issue in the quarantine tank when I initially brought them home and while that's been fixed for a while, it may be a contributing factor, too, even if the others don't show any lingering issues.

I'll work on the food and water first, with maybe a second airstone, then try meds if I'm not seeing any improvement. I have some Maracyn on hand, but I'll pick up another pack of it, since what I have won't do a full course on a 20gal tank. I don't have another spare tank at the moment to dose him separately, unless I pop him back into the quarantine tank and the betta that's in there gets a med bath along with the cory (not the worst idea, tbh). I've never had to do salt baths, but the concept seems simple enough. Getting a single cory out of a 20 high would probably be the hardest part of that, lol. Internal parasite is my current worst case cause, even though it seems like it should be unlikely, given that I've only seen the lethargy and skinniness since the move to the 20gal and they were in the quarantine tank for a month and a half before that.

 

And when I say the snails may be part of the issue if it's food related... There is a wafer under this pile. Somewhere.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/15/2022 at 9:35 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

Snails sometimes. @Chick-In-Of-TheSea



 

 

On 10/15/2022 at 9:35 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

I did have a bit of an ammonia issue in the quarantine tank when I initially brought them home and while that's been fixed for a while, it may be a contributing factor, too, even if the others don't show any lingering issues.

I'll work on the food and water first, with maybe a second airstone, then try meds if I'm not seeing any improvement. I have some Maracyn on hand, but I'll pick up another pack of it, since what I have won't do a full course on a 20gal tank. I don't have another spare tank at the moment to dose him separately, unless I pop him back into the quarantine tank and the betta that's in there gets a med bath along with the cory (not the worst idea, tbh). I've never had to do salt baths, but the concept seems simple enough. Getting a single cory out of a 20 high would probably be the hardest part of that, lol. Internal parasite is my current worst case cause, even though it seems like it should be unlikely, given that I've only seen the lethargy and skinniness since the move to the 20gal and they were in the quarantine tank for a month and a half before that.

 

And when I say the snails may be part of the issue if it's food related... There is a wafer under this pile. Somewhere.

Yeah, totally could be a contributing factor.  They generally seem healthy. Generally seem like they are doing ok.  The hiding and clamped fins like that, I have one of my pandas that got the worst of an illness and he has the same behavior.  I know he's miles better than he was.  I had some corydoras with some lethargy and they were a new variety to me.  I didn't QT them (they went into a tank by themselves) and it was a situation where I did the basic method that ACO does for the QT Trio, but not full treatment for something like internal parasites....

Meaning, after about a year or 18 months or so I opted to treat the tank for parasites finally.  It's been about 2 months after treatment, a lot of stress on the tank, but everyone is doing fine and they finally perked up a bit.  It might be a situation where that cory does perfectly fine for years, and then you decide to run through meds with the group and go through a few rounds of internal meds for worms. 

Considering the mass of snails, I would definitely recommend breaking up the wafers into 1/2 or 1/4's

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/15/2022 at 10:30 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yeah, totally could be a contributing factor.  They generally seem healthy. Generally seem like they are doing ok.  The hiding and clamped fins like that, I have one of my pandas that got the worst of an illness and he has the same behavior.  I know he's miles better than he was.  I had some corydoras with some lethargy and they were a new variety to me.  I didn't QT them (they went into a tank by themselves) and it was a situation where I did the basic method that ACO does for the QT Trio, but not full treatment for something like internal parasites....

Meaning, after about a year or 18 months or so I opted to treat the tank for parasites finally.  It's been about 2 months after treatment, a lot of stress on the tank, but everyone is doing fine and they finally perked up a bit.  It might be a situation where that cory does perfectly fine for years, and then you decide to run through meds with the group and go through a few rounds of internal meds for worms. 

Considering the mass of snails, I would definitely recommend breaking up the wafers into 1/2 or 1/4's

Sorry for the snails. 😅 I forget sometimes just how many are in there and then something like that happens. I really ought to pull some. There are enough people locally with loaches and puffers, someone will take 'em.

Yeah, I didn't do any medications at all, just relying on observation, but some meds might have been a good option in retrospect. I'll do what I can for now, might end up doing a round of medications at some point. The honeys in the tank haven't given me any problems at all so far (unless a surprise spawn counts as a problem lmao) but it can't hurt. Thank you so much for your help with this.

[KatGoneFishing]

@nabokovfan87got a decent pic that shows the skinniness. One of the plump boys to the left, skinny boy to the right.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/16/2022 at 2:39 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

@nabokovfan87got a decent pic that shows the skinniness. One of the plump boys to the left, skinny boy to the right.

Yeah, I definitely would be using Expel-P.

What do you think, is this likely physical damage or a deformity or is this from specifically internal issues? @Colu

[Colu]

On 10/17/2022 at 1:39 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yeah, I definitely would be using Expel-P.

What do you think, is this likely physical damage or a deformity or is this from specifically internal issues? @Colu

It doesn't look like a damage or a deformity I think it's more than likely internal parasites it's also possible something else is going on  I would treat with Expel p Once a week for 3 week 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Colu

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:11 PM, Colu said:

It doesn't look like a damage or a deformity I think it's more than likely internal parasites Expel p it's also possible something else is going on  I would treat with Expel p 1 week for 3 week 

@nabokovfan87Yeah, I was looking at it more this morning and was coming to a similar conclusion after reviewing the various medications and what they treat. I'll see if my LFS has Expel-P tomorrow and get it ordered if not. Thank you both.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:22 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

@nabokovfan87Yeah, I was looking at it more this morning and was coming to a similar conclusion after reviewing the various medications and what they treat. I'll see if my LFS has Expel-P tomorrow and get it ordered if not. Thank you both.

There's a schedule that I have to give huge props to @Odd Duck every time we use it!  Essentially, you're treating with two meds, several times a week for 2-3 weeks.  I'll grab the text and post it here for you.  

I know levamisole is listed, that is Expel-P
Prazi is listed, referring to prazipro (hikari) which is similar to Paracleanse

Quote

Week 1: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout, siphon and WC, prazi.

Week 2: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout, siphon and WC.

Week 3: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout, siphon and WC, prazi.

Week 4: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout, siphon and WC.

Week 5: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout, siphon and WC, prazi (or can do only prazi this week and skip 5th treatment of levamisole).

Week 6: WC and siphon, then back to routine maintenance.

You would treat the fish for a minimum of 2 weeks, 3 is recommended.  I will link a video from Cory with details on why and his method.  The key points here is that when you use Expel-P you need to turn off lights, black out the tank for 24 hours.  At that point, you'd siphon to remove any parasites (try to siphon well!) and then go ahead and dose in the second med and wait the remainder of the week.  I believe the box states 5 days, then WC.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask and talk through it, but this is what I used and the fish were ok with it.  I was treating for internal parasites with breaks for ~2 months and this schedule is what I did for the second month for 3-4 weeks.

 

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:10 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You would treat the fish for a minimum of 2 weeks, 3 is recommended.  I will link a video from Cory with details on why and his method.  The key points here is that when you use Expel-P you need to turn off lights, black out the tank for 24 hours.  At that point, you'd siphon to remove any parasites (try to siphon well!) and then go ahead and dose in the second med and wait the remainder of the week.  I believe the box states 5 days, then WC.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask and talk through it, but this is what I used and the fish were ok with it.  I was treating for internal parasites with breaks for ~2 months and this schedule is what I did for the second month for 3-4 weeks.

Oh, this is fantastic, thank you. If I'm understanding right, I'll do the first dose of Expel P after a WC, then blackout the tank for 24 hours. Then I'll do another WC, siphoning well, and dose the Prazipro or Paracleanse (I have some Paracleanse on hand, but can get Prazipro if that's better for this regimen?). I let things sit with the meds for the remainder of the week - so the Expel P is there for 7 days, the Prazipro for 6? - before starting again and doing that for 3 weeks.

And I am definitely going to do this proactively in the future, oof. Much less of a pain to do it in a fairly bare ten gallon, I'm sure. I'm already not looking forward to navigating hardscape and plants with the siphon in a 20 high.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:37 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

so the Expel P is there for 7 days, the Prazipro for 6? - before starting again and doing that for 3 weeks.

The directions for paracleanse are what you'd follow.  It would just be after the siphon and WC following 24 hours of expel-P

Quote

Day One: Add contents of one packet per 10 gallons of water to be treated.

Day Three: Add contents of one packet per 10 gallons of water to be treated.

Day Five: Perform a 25% water change.

 

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The directions for paracleanse are what you'd follow.  It would just be after the siphon and WC following 24 hours of expel-P

Got it, thank you. Would I start week 2 on day 7, then or give a day of rest and just start again a whole week after the first Expel-P?

[KatGoneFishing]

Alright, Expel-P and Prazipro acquired (LFS was out of Paracleanse, so I figured I'd at least do the regimen with the same meds from start to finish and got the Prazipro). I'll start treatment tomorrow. Just need to figure out a decent way to blackout the tank. 

My teal betta is now worrying me the most, ugh. He's laying on the bottom more often, his chin/belly has become discolored over the last few days, and he's taken to wedging himself down next to the heater. He came out to greet me and was decently active for a few minutes before just abruptly flopping over on the bottom for a minute, but he just spat out his food this evening and didn't actually eat it, which is a first. I've got a 50W ACO heater on order, just going to try to keep the water somewhat heated without getting too warm until it gets here. And I do have aquarium salt on the way, as well, to have that on hand, at least. But I can't see any particular symptom that will give me a more direct indication of what's wrong with him. He's having trouble staying level when not moving and doing the curling lay down, but no pineconing of his scales or noticeable bloat. No white dots all over, no fungus, no popeye. No fin rot that I can see, no visible parasites on his scales. His scales are discolored, but not yellow/rust. The previous tankmates, the ember tetras, are active and healthy-seeming, no sign of a transmissible disease that lingered in that tank so far, at least. Ugh.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:41 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

Just need to figure out a decent way to blackout the tank. 

I just use two big towels. Sometimes 3. Worst case with some decent box tape.

On 10/17/2022 at 9:41 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

My teal betta is now worrying me the most, ugh. He's laying on the bottom more often, his chin/belly has become discolored over the last few days, and he's taken to wedging himself down next to the heater.

Could he be hiding from the flow or trying to get warm?  The mouth discoloration, as long as it's not fuzzy you'd want to treat with salt (again, optional, but helps) level 2 and bacteria meds for open wounds.

Edited October 18, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:41 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

but he just spat out his food this evening and didn't actually eat it, which is a first

This is his way of basically saying he's having internal issues.

On 10/17/2022 at 9:41 PM, KatGoneFishing said:

He's having trouble staying level when not moving and doing the curling lay down, but no pineconing of his scales or noticeable bloat. No white dots all over, no fungus, no popeye. No fin rot that I can see, no visible parasites on his scales. His scales are discolored, but not yellow/rust.

Hm. I would fast for ~3 days. Then try to feed. If he eats well on that day, then that's a great sign. You'd normally do this for meds anyways to prevent internal impaction and give the fish time to relieve the stress from swim bladder or excess fluid issues. The symptom is that he is having trouble staying upright. So that's why he's laying down a lot. It's very likely a swim bladder thing or bloating that's causing discomfort and balance issues and the excess fluid needs to be relieved. 

The best way to take pressure off is to make sure stress isn't too much. Have clean water, good oxygenation, and then use something that can keep the fish towards the surface of the tank. The fish has less pressure internally on himself the closer to the surface he is. This also helps him to not exhaust himself if he is having any issues swimming to the surface.

Lastly. Avoid protein right now with that Betta. You'd want something with some ruffage like brine shrimp or spirulina/omnivore foods to help with passing anything internally out of his system.

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/18/2022 at 12:48 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I just use two big towels. Sometimes 3. Worst case with some decent box tape.

*puts down the cardboard and scissors and looks at the blankets and towels in the hutch under the tank*

Towels, right, I was definitely thinking towels, too.

On 10/18/2022 at 12:48 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Could he be hiding from the flow or trying to get warm?  The mouth discoloration, as long as it's not fuzzy you'd want to treat with salt (again, optional, but helps) level 2 and bacteria meds for open wounds.

I thought maybe the difficulty swimming was flow related (he was in a 10 gallon with a decent amount of plants before, currently in a fairly bare 5 gallon), so I turned that down a few days ago, but didn't seem to make much difference in his activity level and I ended up turning it back up to at least make sure the water wasn't too still for oxygenation. I did turn the heater back on for a while today, but he's still doing it, so I'm not sure if it's temperature or it just feeling better than being in the open.

The discoloration isn't fuzzy, just as if the scales have gone a brown-gray. I'll definitely try the salt when it arrives. Would the bacteria meds be helpful before that? I do have both maracyn and ich-x on hand.

On 10/18/2022 at 12:53 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

and then use something that can keep the fish towards the surface of the tank. The fish has less pressure internally on himself the closer to the surface he is. This also helps him to not exhaust himself if he is having any issues swimming to the surface.

There are a couple of fake plants with leaves broad enough for him to rest on at different levels in the tank, but I can get one of those floating logs to give him a more enclosed option closer to the surface, as well. I have one in the 10gal that he seemed to like, but one of the ember tetras also really likes it, too, and I can't quite bring myself to take it away from her.

Now that I'm thinking about it again, though, I wonder if maybe he's also just...sleeping/resting a lot because he's not well? My other betta seems to have taken to sleeping in a brick thing with holes that I originally got for the cories while they were in the quarantine tank, tucking himself into a small, enclosed space. Maybe the heater is just providing the closest thing to that in the hospital tank.

Thank you again for all your help with this, by the way, I really appreciate it. It's felt a bit like a three ring circus the last while, between the cories and this betta and life in general. (Why did the towels not even occur to me, that's honestly kind of embarrassing 😅)

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:22 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

Would the bacteria meds be helpful before that? I do have both maracyn and ich-x on hand.

In terms of the trio:

Bacterial: Maracyn

Fungal: Ich-X

External Parasites/Tapeworms: Salt+Para cleanse

Internal parasite: Expel-P

On 10/18/2022 at 1:22 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

My other betta seems to have taken to sleeping in a brick thing with holes that I originally got for the cories while they were in the quarantine tank, tucking himself into a small, enclosed space. Maybe the heater is just providing the closest thing to that in the hospital tank.

Very likely. Fish do that when sleeping, especially Bettas. They need little hammocks every night. 🤩Fac

On 10/18/2022 at 1:22 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

There are a couple of fake plants with leaves broad enough for him to rest on at different levels in the tank, but I can get one of those floating logs to give him a more enclosed option closer to the surface, as well. I have one in the 10gal that he seemed to like, but one of the ember tetras also really likes it, too, and I can't quite bring myself to take it away from her.

The big box stores should have anubias, which generally does well and likely doesn't even need a light on the tank if the room has some halfway decent ambient lighting. That might be a great place to start for either fish. Lightly dose easy green once a week and off you go.

The floating logs can cause a ton of damage. There's been a few that can attest to this and have been tracking down things like 3D printed floating items as better options. Suction cup leaves also work too. @Goldie Blue

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:22 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

I thought maybe the difficulty swimming was flow related (he was in a 10 gallon with a decent amount of plants before, currently in a fairly bare 5 gallon), so I turned that down a few days ago, but didn't seem to make much difference in his activity level and I ended up turning it back up to at least make sure the water wasn't too still for oxygenation. I did turn the heater back on for a while today, but he's still doing it, so I'm not sure if it's temperature or it just feeling better than being in the open.

Keep in mind flow vs. oxygenation. Surface agitation can be gentle (fine bubble ziss airstones) or can be harsh.  You can get a baffle for your filter from a place like Etsy and that should give the Betta everything they need in terms of a comfortable tank at any size. There's also videos out of people making these with water bottles too. Tons of great options. Oxygenation helps the fish with energy. Temperature helps with or causes stress (when not right) and flow helps with other things like pushing water through the gills, moving heat around, and helping to push waste away from the fish. I'm sure someone else can explain that better but hopefully that helps.

I would make sure any sick fish, ESPECIALLY once you add meds, has an airstone to help increase oxygenation.

[Goldie Blue]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:22 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

There are a couple of fake plants with leaves broad enough for him to rest on at different levels in the tank, but I can get one of those floating logs to give him a more enclosed option closer to the surface, as well. I have one in the 10gal that he seemed to like, but one of the ember tetras also really likes it, too, and I can't quite bring myself to take it away from her.

Yeah, after MONTHS of  battling fin rot, I realized those logs were causing it to linger on for both my bettas, in two separate tanks. There were other factors with one of them, but I'd highly suggest staying away from the logs. I loaded both of mine with 3D printed tubes from Etsy (multiple different shops) and SeeShelters, along with live plants. I wouldn't even put the leaf suction cup thing in my tank if I were you. They will wedge themselves between leaves of real plants to sleep, and go into the smoothed out tubes for naps. 

Other things some might not think of is reflection (this stressed my one betta out so bad I literally just can't have light on in his tank anymore), and water flow. My betta Goldie Blue is in a setup where I had to stifle all the flow with prefilter sponges (A Fluval Flex 9). In both cases my bettas were so stressed out they were just laying on the ground and hiding by heaters etc, just as you describe. Stress will mess a betta up fast, add in their fins are like tissue paper, and you have a very sensitive situation on your hands. 

Aquarium salt and airstones work wonders if you want to start off with something more gentle before moving to meds.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Goldie Blue

[KatGoneFishing]

On 10/18/2022 at 2:30 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

The big box stores should have anubias, which generally does well and likely doesn't even need a light on the tank if the room has some halfway decent ambient lighting. That might be a great place to start for either fish. Lightly dose easy green once a week and off you go.

The floating logs can cause a ton of damage. There's been a few that can attest to this and have been tracking down things like 3D printed floating items as better options. Suction cup leaves also work too.

On 10/18/2022 at 7:36 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Yeah, after MONTHS of  battling fin rot, I realized those logs were causing it to linger on for both my bettas, in two separate tanks. There were other factors with one of them, but I'd highly suggest staying away from the logs. I loaded both of mine with 3D printed tubes from Etsy (multiple different shops) and SeeShelters, along with live plants. I wouldn't even put the leaf suction cup thing in my tank if I were you. They will wedge themselves between leaves of real plants to sleep, and go into the smoothed out tubes for naps. 

The 10gal does have live plants, including an anubias. I haven't had any issues yet with the log, but I'll definitely keep an eye on it and possibly remove it if the betta does go back to the 10gal. The ember doesn't rest on it, at least, I think she just likes having a cave to hang out in. I'll look into options for the 5gal, thank you!

On 10/18/2022 at 2:38 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would make sure any sick fish, ESPECIALLY once you add meds, has an airstone to help increase oxygenation.

On 10/18/2022 at 7:36 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Other things some might not think of is reflection (this stressed my one betta out so bad I literally just can't have light on in his tank anymore), and water flow. My betta Goldie Blue is in a setup where I had to stifle all the flow with prefilter sponges (A Fluval Flex 9). In both cases my bettas were so stressed out they were just laying on the ground and hiding by heaters etc, just as you describe. Stress will mess a betta up fast, add in their fins are like tissue paper, and you have a very sensitive situation on your hands. 

Aquarium salt and airstones work wonders if you want to start off with something more gentle before moving to meds.

This guy did occasionally flare at his reflection in the 10gal, but I haven't noticed it being more than an occasional thing, and the 5gal doesn't have a light on it, at least. I have sponge filters with airstones on all but one of my tanks (and that tank has white clouds), so I'm hopefully good there, though I do have extra airstones on hand if needed. I don't have salt on hand, at the moment, it's on its way, but I'll be giving that a go as soon as I can.

Morning update: checked the tank this morning and he's out front resting on the bottom of the tank instead of behind the heater, which is a change I appreciate, if only to save myself the tiny heart attacks of looking in the tank and not seeing him right away. He's at least alert enough with enough energy to see me and swim up to the surface, even if he does go back down pretty quickly.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:21 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

I haven't had any issues yet with the log, but I'll definitely keep an eye on it and possibly remove it if the betta does go back to the 10gal.

Sandpaper, fine grit should help if you need to smooth it out. I've never had one, but even on 3d printed things, rocks, etc. That's one thing a lot of people don't do and is critical for some fish species.

On 10/18/2022 at 11:21 AM, KatGoneFishing said:

Morning update: checked the tank this morning and he's out front resting on the bottom of the tank instead of behind the heater, which is a change I appreciate, if only to save myself the tiny heart attacks of looking in the tank and not seeing him right away. He's at least alert enough with enough energy to see me and swim up to the surface, even if he does go back down pretty quickly.

What was the tank on the temp? Sorry about asking again, you may have already answered. I know you have several fish in several tanks and all of them with some issues, I just wanted to confirm that variable for what you're trying to keep them at temp wise.  You mentioned a heater is on the way too. 🙂