Backup power

[WhitecloudDynasty]

I only use this setup if the power is going to be off for more than 12 hours. I also use this setup for other reason also.

I use 2 deep cycle battery connected to an 100w inverter ( doesn't have to be 100w for the fishroom)

With that setup I can run my Diaphragm Air Pump 96 LPM plus charge my phone for atleast 7 hours..draining it just down to 50%.

Deep cycle battery  should only be drain down to 50% to be on the safe side..20% is the lowest itll go before it lose its voltage.

I thought I share since I had to bring it out yesterday for the storm

Edited October 1, 2022 by WhitecloudDynasty

[Pepere]

On 10/1/2022 at 1:32 PM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

I only use this setup if the power is going to be off for more than 12 hours. I also use this setup for other reason also.

Might I suggest if you have not done so to add a beefy fuse to the positive post of the battery.

 

https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/fuse-terminal-75a-2746.html

 

mounted on a terminal fuse block such as;

 

https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/fuse-block-terminal-30-300a-2743.html

 

I am an ABYC marine electrician who has taught classes on boat electrical systems.  I subtitled my class, “how to not burn down your boat or electrocute people.

 

here is the short version of this segment.  Fuses protect the wiring, not the appliance it is wired to.  Two group 29 deep cycle batteries connected together hold a fair amount of power.  It can easily cause cables attached to glow red hor and shed the insulation and start a fire.

 

adding an in,ine fuse on a big battery bank is not really job done.  Let me introduce you to a concept most people have never heard about.

 

AIC rating.  Ampere interupt capacity.  Ie the fuse is rated for 75 amps it will reliably blow at 75 amps.  An AIC rating of 10,000 amps means that in the event of a dead short between the conductors, the fuse will prevent arcing over the gap up to 10,000 amps…

little inline fuses just dont cut it on battery banks.  You need more than that.

 

and you really do want to buy a few spare fuses at the same time. Because you want to keep it running in a power outage situation.

I have a similar set up myself as what you discussed with 4 deep cycle batteries.  I can run my boiler and indirect hot water tank for 3 days when it is zero degrees outside with this setup and no generator.

 

i practice what I preach.  I have this very fuse block and 3 fuses on hand with it.

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:26 PM, Pepere said:

Might I suggest if you have not done so to add a beefy fuse to the positive post of the battery.

 

https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/fuse-terminal-75a-2746.html

 

mounted on a terminal fuse block such as;

 

https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/fuse-block-terminal-30-300a-2743.html

 

I am an ABYC marine electrician who has taught classes on boat electrical systems.  I subtitled my class, “how to not burn down your boat or electrocute people.

 

here is the short version of this segment.  Fuses protect the wiring, not the appliance it is wired to.  Two group 29 deep cycle batteries connected together hold a fair amount of power.  It can easily cause cables attached to glow red hor and shed the insulation and start a fire.

 

adding an in,ine fuse on a big battery bank is not really job done.  Let me introduce you to a concept most people have never heard about.

 

AIC rating.  Ampere interupt capacity.  Ie the fuse is rated for 75 amps it will reliably blow at 75 amps.  An AIC rating of 10,000 amps means that in the event of a dead short between the conductors, the fuse will prevent arcing over the gap up to 10,000 amps…

little inline fuses just dont cut it on battery banks.  You need more than that.

 

and you really do want to buy a few spare fuses at the same time. Because you want to keep it running in a power outage situation.

I have a similar set up myself as what you discussed with 4 deep cycle batteries.  I can run my boiler and indirect hot water tank for 3 days when it is zero degrees outside with this setup and no generator.

 

i practice what I preach.  I have this very fuse block and 3 fuses on hand with it.

I have thought of that before when I first bought this setup, just never got around to it

[meadeam]

Great thread.  I don't lose power often, and luckily the last time it was out long enough to matter was during a time of year where heaters weren't necessary, and I had enough USB power to keep some sponge filters running for quite awhile.   I need to come up with a contingency for cold weather outage.

[TOtrees]

I don’t experience power outages often, but one back in May of this year came very close to seriously impacting my fish room. My job occasionally takes me out of the house during storm events, if I am on call. On this occasion, I had to leave just as the power went out and I didn’t have time to do anything in the fish room before I had to go. Nor did I know how long power would be out (it turned out to be a day and a half). 

I didn’t get home until around 10 hours later. Fish room had zero power during that time. No filtration, no heat, no air. Most of my tanks are not too too heavily stocked (for a fishroom set up) and most weathered the disturbance well. My multifasciatus shelldweller tank however is heavily stocked, and has a massive additional bioload of MTS in the substrate. When I got home, I encountered the first of what turned out to be half a dozen fish that died in that tank that day, I suspect due to low oxygen and possibly also consequences of no filtration. I was able to stabilize things ASAP by doing a 50% water change using water that was slightly warmer than the tank, and trickling the water in from a decent height to generate bubbles. I was then able to connect an inverter like the one mentioned in this thread to one of our cars in the driveway which got me through the night. The fish room has central air requiring only 46 watts so I didn’t have any run time issues, plus since the car battery was the power source it can be turned on to recharge. 

Since that time, I have improved my no-power setup by making one simple change: I bought a LiFePO4 12V 100 amp-hour battery. Fully charged, I can get about a day of power to my air pump through the inverter. Or, I can power the inverter and my modem/router and get a bit less. No cords outside to the car, sets up in the basement, deploys in moments. I love it. Also, this type of battery doesn’t lose performance if discharged below 50%. 100% to 0%, back up and back down again as many times as you like. I also splurged last year and bought a 3500 W generator. For the most part, these purchases were funded or partly funded through fish room sales. In the event of an extended power outage, I can run the generator for parts of the day to power the fish room directly (plus things like refrigerator and furnace blower AND COFFEE MACHINE), as well as charge the battery. Then I can run the battery overnight and not enrage my neighbors.

The generator will ultimately get me through longer outages, should they occur. But the battery and inverter see far more use, and I think are ultimately the better investment in most cases.

[Pepere]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:49 PM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

have thought of that before when I first bought this setup, just never got around to it

And, I noticed I posted a link to a 75 amp fuse, you would of course want a higher rated fuse assuming the wires are big enough for it to get full use of the inverters capacity.  I was just trying to show a fuse type that fits on a terminal fuse block that is really slick…

 

 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/1/2022 at 10:54 PM, TOtrees said:

I don’t experience power outages often, but one back in May of this year came very close to seriously impacting my fish room. My job occasionally takes me out of the house during storm events, if I am on call. On this occasion, I had to leave just as the power went out and I didn’t have time to do anything in the fish room before I had to go. Nor did I know how long power would be out (it turned out to be a day and a half). 

I didn’t get home until around 10 hours later. Fish room had zero power during that time. No filtration, no heat, no air. Most of my tanks are not too too heavily stocked (for a fishroom set up) and most weathered the disturbance well. My multifasciatus shelldweller tank however is heavily stocked, and has a massive additional bioload of MTS in the substrate. When I got home, I encountered the first of what turned out to be half a dozen fish that died in that tank that day, I suspect due to low oxygen and possibly also consequences of no filtration. I was able to stabilize things ASAP by doing a 50% water change using water that was slightly warmer than the tank, and trickling the water in from a decent height to generate bubbles. I was then able to connect an inverter like the one mentioned in this thread to one of our cars in the driveway which got me through the night. The fish room has central air requiring only 46 watts so I didn’t have any run time issues, plus since the car battery was the power source it can be turned on to recharge. 

Since that time, I have improved my no-power setup by making one simple change: I bought a LiFePO4 12V 100 amp-hour battery. Fully charged, I can get about a day of power to my air pump through the inverter. Or, I can power the inverter and my modem/router and get a bit less. No cords outside to the car, sets up in the basement, deploys in moments. I love it. Also, this type of battery doesn’t lose performance if discharged below 50%. 100% to 0%, back up and back down again as many times as you like. I also splurged last year and bought a 3500 W generator. For the most part, these purchases were funded or partly funded through fish room sales. In the event of an extended power outage, I can run the generator for parts of the day to power the fish room directly (plus things like refrigerator and furnace blower AND COFFEE MACHINE), as well as charge the battery. Then I can run the battery overnight and not enrage my neighbors.

The generator will ultimately get me through longer outages, should they occur. But the battery and inverter see far more use, and I think are ultimately the better investment in most cases.

Has anyone thought about just plain old backup power like solar panels? It means you’re less reliant on local power stations.

[Patrick_G]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:26 PM, Pepere said:

am an ABYC marine electrician who has taught classes on boat electrical systems.  I subtitled my class, “how to not burn down your boat or electrocute people.

Nice to see another marine tradesman on here. I do mostly wooden boat work and wood parts of fiberglass boats but I'll do systems work for long term customers. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Patrick_G

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:58 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Has anyone thought about just plain old backup power like solar panels? It means you’re less reliant on local power stations.

Solar panels still need to store the energy into a battery and still need and inverter to convert DC to AC

[Pepere]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:42 AM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

Solar panels still need to store the energy into a battery and still need and inverter to convert DC to AC

And to account for days without sun you need to size panels and battery bank to be able to provide power for up to three days without sun.

 

in practice, most people who have off grid solar power with battery banks also keep a generator on hand to account for extended cloudy weather.  Much cheaper than paying for extra capacity that is not used often…

[TeeJay]

Ok so I'm a noob to all the power stuff what if I were to get something like this to just run air pumps to my 3 tanks. The 3 tanks run off of 2 co op air pumps. Roughy what kind of time would I get out of it.

Jackery Portable Power Station Explorer 300, 293Wh Backup Lithium Battery, 110V/300W Pure Sine Wave AC Outlet, Solar Generator (Solar Panel Not Included) for Outdoors Camping Travel Hunting Blackout https://a.co/d/9BuGrMZ

 

 

[Pepere]

Give a man a fish and he has it for a while.  Give him a breeding pair and teach him how to breed them he might be set for life….

 

To that end, rather than give you just the answer, let me give you information on how to figure it out…

 

look at the bottom of your air pumps. It should list their wattage.  If not, 3 watts is a good guess.

that is your consumption.  Than you figure your duty cycle.  How many hours a day it runs…. Heaters, have significant draw but somewhat lowered run time.  HOBs and Air pumps are typically 24/hour cycle..

 

A 100 watt heater that runs 10% of the time consumes 10 watt hours per hour…. Or rouhly 240 watthours per day.   A 35 watt light that runs 8 hours per day consumes 12 watthours per hour over a 24 hour period. 280 watt hours per day.

 

In your case, 2 air pumps if they consume 3 watts each and do not have a power save mode that runs them and stops them and restarts etc, will consume 144 watt hours a day.

 

ok, so the device you are looking at has capacity of 293 watt hours.  Assuming of course it is fully charged before using..  keeping Lihium Ion batteries stored at 100% charge capacity is not great for them.  80% is usually reccomended.  And you can deplete it to about 20%… so that sort of leaves you at 60% usuable capacity, roughly 175 watt hours
 

this unit has an inverter that produces pure sine wave.  Drastic overkill for an air pump. Modified sine wave would be perfectly fine.  The inverter consumes a certain amount of power just to maintain that wave form, typically on the order of 2-3%, but, that is 2-3% of rated output, not of consumption.  Rated output is 300 watts. So figure 9 watts for housekeeping….  So you might be consuming roughly 10 watts per hour of run time usage….  17 hours between recharge maybe…

 

I am not a huge fan of all in one units like these. It is a battery a charger and an inverter in a single package. It limits you to a very specific battery that may not be available for long. And if the battery is still good but the inverter dies, it is still useless. If the charger dies, same outcome.

A 100 amp hour Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) battery can be had for about $220.00 

A low cost 300 watt modified sine wave inverter can be had for under $30.00.

 

likewise a 10 amp battery charger with setting for AGM can be had around $30.00.

AGM batteries are sealed so no worries of spilling electrolyte. The glass matt reinforces and supports the battery plates meaning antimony is not needed to strengthen the plates and vastly reduces self discharge. I just replaced the original AGM starting battery in my 2004 Toyota Prius this summer.. ie it lasted 18 years!

Single battery the need for a fuse with a high AIC rating is not needed. An inline fuse remains a good idea, but most inverters have them.

 

for about the same cost you now have roughly 600 watt hours of usable capacity, and you only replace what fails.  The inverter and charger works on any battery.. 

No it is not as easily portable and as light weight, and it takes up more space, but, now you can determine what makes most sense for you based on what is important to you…

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

A nano air pump on a 20000 mAh power bank ran for 52 hours for me. Maybe a little more because it was still running when I left the house, but 52 hours confirmed. Whereas my cyber power, which was like $175, ran for 15 minutes for 3 tanks- air pumps and heaters only. CyberPower was such a letdown, but it is good for brownouts because it protects from surges and you don’t have to be there to prime the HOB.

[Pepere]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:24 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

nano air pump on a 20000 mAh power bank ran for 52 hours for me.

Into a glass of water, or into the bottom of an aquarium?

 

as load increases power consumption increases as well.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

48 hr in the aquarium, then the power came back on and I wanted to open and close my lid so I moved it out to the glass to see how long it would go.

[TOtrees]

@Pepereand I were chatting offline about this stuff, they are vastly more qualified than me. 

However, in my opinion the lithium iron phosphate batteries are an excellent choice for short or medium time frame back up power. Lithium iron phosphate (lifepo4) is not the same as lithium ion. I am prepared to be proven wrong here but it’s my understanding that they will tolerate storage storage at 100% and use right down to 0% quite well. 100 or even 200 amp hour batteries are not that expensive, relative to the peace of mind they provide and the ease with which they deploy. Inverters and chargers like those are linked above are also required. Don’t do like I did: make sure you research proper circuit/fuse protection for your battery and devices. 

[Pepere]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:55 PM, TOtrees said:

However, in my opinion the lithium iron phosphate batteries are an excellent choice for short or medium time frame back up power. Lithium iron phosphate (lifepo4) is not the same as lithium ion. I am prepared to be proven wrong here but it’s my understanding that they will tolerate storage storage at 100% and use right down to 0% quite well.

You may well be right on that.  I have not kept quite up to date with all of the lithium variants out there. That being said the technology remains new, and I retain a healthy concern over them. Thermal runaway, dendritic bridging and shorting, controllers needing to keep tight parameters on charge acceptance and temperature compensation… electrolytes that burn intensely…

AGM, Absorbed Glass Matt batteries have a proven track record in many respects for safety, longevity and compared to the lithium variants low cost per unit of capacity.  The Lithium variants have the advantage in lower weight and amount of energy capacity for a given footprint.

[TOtrees]

 

On 10/4/2022 at 1:28 PM, Pepere said:

That being said the technology remains new, and I retain a healthy concern over them. Thermal runaway, dendritic bridging and shorting, controllers needing to keep tight parameters on charge acceptance and temperature compensation… electrolytes that burn intensely…

I hear you on all those concerns (though  I cannot claim to understand them all 😕), and in many areas I’m a wait and see, late adopter. I did a fairly decent amount of research into how these batteries are suited to my particular situation, and the pros and cons related thereto. LiFePO4 has been generally embraced by rv and off road community, and a lot of off-grid folks as well. There are a lot of reviews from very knowledgable folks in those circles. These batts almost always come with an on board bms or battery management system that takes care of a lot of the charging and balancing issues, making them accessible to ignoramuses like myself (for better or worse). Some have integrated Bluetooth support for wireless monitoring and control. 

I’m not saying they’re perfect, or foolproof. And I can’t claim too fully understand the depths of each and every risk (though I would also point out that most risks associated with these types of batteries also exist to greater or lesser extent for any similar batteries). In the end I’m confident they are a good choice for me and my situation. 

And I’m certainly not saying that everyone should go out and buy one. But include them as an option when you do your own research.

[Pepere]

https://dakotalithium.com/product/dakota-lithium-12v-100ah-deep-cycle-marine-trolling-motor-battery/
 

12 volt 100 amp hour lithium phosphate battery, $900.00.  Includes a compatible battery charger.  2000 cycles assuming 80% depth of discharge before recharging.

https://theinverterstore.com/product/12-volt-100-amps-agm-deep-cycle-maintenance-free-battery-heavy-duty/?msclkid=b6d0cf47d2c6157f3e45ac7b65b8f3e0&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ECI - Google Shopping - All Products [Smart]&utm_term=4577129472229552&utm_content=All Products Smart
 

12 volt 100 amp hr AGM battery, $230.00 500 cycles at 50% depth of discharge.

 

doing the math the Lithium phosphate is the better deal over its lifetime… if you plan on having 2,000 power outages…

 

you need to consider rapid advances in battery technology to, that the AGM might get you 10 to 15 years on standby service with a few power outage uses per year.  There could be a breakthrough in batteries that makes for a superior lower cost replacement in 5 years that would mean the expensive lithium phosphate battery today never pays off.

 

I would hesitate to spend the money for the liphosphate unless I was using that capacity daily.  It would be attractive in an off grid storage situation…

 

 

 

And you can get a standard flooded deep cycle 100 amp hour battery 12 volt for under $140.00.  It will have similar cycle life and depth of discharge, but it has continual parasitic self discharge from lead alloy use in plates. You need to keep a charge on it in storage and life over standby is much less than AGM deep cycle.

[Pepere]

Accidental double post deleted.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Pepere

[Minanora]

I love these topics so much!

Just to add a note. Electrical safety is super important.

To anyone reading who doesn't have experience, do your homework before you go wiring up a battery bank and/or inverter on your own. Calculate the max amperage and voltage you will be drawing. Use appropriately sized conductors that are rated for the draw you're going to put on them and terminate your wires correctly. Fuses and/or breakers are a must IMO.

Sloppy, loose, or over- torqued terminations are a prime way to start a fire. No nipped strands, fully seated terminations, no exposed bare wire beyond the termination.

I generally over engineer most of my projects.... but I never have any issues! 💚

Edited October 5, 2022 by Minanora
Typo

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:25 AM, Minanora said:

I love these topics so much!

Just to add a note. Electrical safety is super important.

To anyone reading who doesn't have experience, do your homework before you go wiring up a battery bank and/or inverter on your own. Calculate the max amperage and voltage you will be drawing. Use appropriately sized conductors that are rated for the draw you're going to put on them and terminate your wires correctly. Fuses and/or breakers are a must IMO.

Sloppy, loose, or over- torqued terminations are a prime way to start a fire. No nipped strands, fully seated terminations, no exposed bare wire beyond the termination.

I generally over engineer most of my projects.... but I never have any issues! 💚

I also sit my UPS on top of styrofoam in case of tank leak or flood.

[TOtrees]

On 10/4/2022 at 6:53 PM, Pepere said:

doing the math the Lithium phosphate is the better deal over its lifetime… if you plan on having 2,000 power outages…

@Pepere I got my battery off Amazon for $270usd. The cells are used, so it’s only rated to 95ah not 100. My battery will have limited charging cycles compared to new cells, but no I’m not expecting 2000 outages. For me, the extra run time using the battery to power my air pump (and the fact that I could also include my modem/router without too much loss of run time) is worth the additional $, compared to a battery that can’t (shouldn’t) go below 50%.

I acknowledge that each of us makes a decision based on what we are comfortable with. Your agm works for you and my lifepo4 works for me. 🙂

[Pepere]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:09 PM, TOtrees said:

 I got my battery off Amazon for $270usd.

Sounds like you got a good deal.

If you look at the data on the charge recharge cycles, you will see that lithium phosphate iron batteries still have a cycle curve based on the depth of discharge.

 

the ones I looked at showed 2000 cycles if depth of discharge kept to around 20%, but 10,000 cycles if kept to 60%.  In either event they are remarkably better than lead acid, and the safety profile as I dug into them looked pretty good.  I saw some with internal battery cell management and bluetooth reporting to a tabletor smartphone reporting on the state of the battery.

They would definitely be a very serious contender if I was looking at a battery bank with regular use, ie off grid storage of solar, or RV use.  Before incorporating in a boat, I would be studying in greater detail.  With boats, fires are a huge concern…   You are very dependent on a boat when you are in the water far from land….  my initial look alayed much of my concern over fire safety with these formulations, but I would want to look deeper before installing in a boat…

my only hesitance at using them for casual use such as we are envisioning was the price, but the price you paid for yours is astounding.

[TOtrees]

If anyones interested, the brand I bought off amazon (not sure if I can/should insert/promote a direct link) is TimeUSB. I was able find a YouTube review of the exact battery which is how I learned the cells are used (before I purchased, though it’s not specified in amazons product description, which didn’t impress me). The batt is assembled and sold in CA USA, with used cells from overseas. Shipping out of CA allows them to provide free shipping, which many 12v batts from outside USA can’t/don’t. The sellers customer service was excellent.

Another “unique“ aspect of the battery is its size. The box is larger than most 100ah batts, basically it has the normal 12v worth of cells and etc, in a 24v size. Again, not broadcasted on the listing, but not concealed or hidden either. Lifepo4 is also very light, compared to other options.

If I use this battery in power outages 50 times over its lifetime (whatever that will be for me), I’ll be surprised. So number of charge cycles is low on my list of concerns. Weight (light), useable capacity, ease of storage and price were all in alignment for my choice.