Choosing the right product

[JoeQ]

Im looking to try something other than CC in my tank. Problem is im not sure what product to go with. Out of the tap my waters GH is about 3~4± dk (25~75ppm), & the KH is about 2dk (40+/-ppm). However in the tank the GH is 8+dk (150ppm) while the KH is still 2dk+ unless I buffer with CC. When im buffering it sits at about 4.5+/-dk (80+/-ppm). With this in mind should I be using Equilibrium buffering my GH higher or should I just use a calcium supplement?

[Mmiller2001]

Are you trying to increase GH and KH? Or raise or lower GH KH individually?

Edited August 19, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[JoeQ]

Raise KH only so im leaning towards liquid calcium. I just want to make sure I get the right product. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/19/2022 at 9:39 AM, JoeQ said:

Raise KH only so im leaning towards liquid calcium. I just want to make sure I get the right product. 

KH is not calcium. It's a carbonate or bicarbonate. And phosphorous, but that's a very different scenario.

[JoeQ]

So supplement bakeing soda and fertilize with liquid calcium?  Or get equilibrium i guess?

Edited August 19, 2022 by JoeQ

[Mmiller2001]

I would stay away from both of those. I would get potassium carbonate. 

CellarScience - AD640LB Potassium Carbonate (lb) https://a.co/d/c0gmN50

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:11 AM, JoeQ said:

With this in mind should I be using Equilibrium buffering my GH higher or should I just use a calcium supplement?

You can also try just using seiryu stone to buffer the water slightly.

On 8/19/2022 at 8:39 AM, JoeQ said:

Raise KH only so im leaning towards liquid calcium. I just want to make sure I get the right product. 

I use alkaline buffer to raise mine.  Would raising KH slightly cause PH issues?

[JoeQ]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:54 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

I would stay away from both of those. I would get potassium carbonate. 

CellarScience - AD640LB Potassium Carbonate (lb) https://a.co/d/c0gmN50

Thats the problem,  im not you and have probably a 1/16th of the intelligence you have when it comes to nutrition/chemistry!  🤣 Any other simplier solutions?

[JoeQ]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:19 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You can also try just using seiryu stone to buffer the water slightly.

I use alkaline buffer to raise mine.  Would raising KH slightly cause PH issues?

I might look into the stone idea (lime stone maybe) KH and Ph have a intimate relationship.  Think of kh as the shield around ph, the lower your kh is, the thinner your shield is. Once the acids eat through your shield it eats your ph. Causing rapid ph swing downwards aka ph crash... on the flip side the higher your Kh is, the higher your ph gets! Im sure Im over simplifying it but this is how I understand it to be. Im sure others will speak up and be able to explain it more scientifically.  Bottom line is i like my kh to be around 80ppm which leaves my ph around 6.8~7, when its 40ppm or lower I feel I don't have enough kh insurance in the bank to prevent a kh bankruptcy should I slack on maintenance! 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:11 AM, JoeQ said:

Im looking to try something other than CC in my tank. Problem is im not sure what product to go with. Out of the tap my waters GH is about 3~4± dk (25~75ppm), & the KH is about 2dk (40+/-ppm). However in the tank the GH is 8+dk (150ppm) while the KH is still 2dk+ unless I buffer with CC. When im buffering it sits at about 4.5+/-dk (80+/-ppm). With this in mind should I be using Equilibrium buffering my GH higher or should I just use a calcium supplement?

Hi @JoeQ

Coral, which is calcium carbonate, adds both calcium and carbonate ions into the water.  It is the carbonate ions that increase the pH; the calcium increases the dGH.  Is there a particular reason why you feel it is necessary to increase the pH of your tank?  -Roy

[JoeQ]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:42 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @JoeQ

Coral, which is calcium carbonate, adds both calcium and carbonate ions into the water.  It is the carbonate ions that increase the pH; the calcium increases the dGH.  Is there a particular reason why you feel it is necessary to increase the pH of your tank?  -Roy

Im not looking to increase ph, just maintain Kh at 80ppm without using CC.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @JoeQ

When we increase the amount of carbonates in the water the pH of the tank increases.  It doesn't matter if it is calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, potassium carbonate they all will increase the pH.  Snail use calcium and carbonates from the water to build their shells.  However, even a tank with a pH of 7.0 has adequate carbonates for shell growth.  The problems for snail shells is when the pH becomes acidic.  The acidic conditions eat away and etch the shells.  If it were me, I would not use coral in my substrate.  I would not routinely add carbonates to the water.  What I would do is monitor my pH and if it drops below 7.0 I would add a very small amount of baking soda (NaHCO₃) NOT BAKING POWDER, to maintain a ph greater than 7.0.  If more calcium is needed I would add Seachem Equilibrium.  Hope this helps! Roy

PS  Seachem Equilbrium contains calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, and potassium sulfate along with a small amount of iron and manganese.  It will increase the dGH of the water but will not increase the pH of the water.  Here in the Seattle area where I live our water is very soft.  In order to healthy plants here I have to use Equilibrium to have sufficient calcium and magnesium in the water for healthy plant growth. 

[Mmiller2001]

It's super easy. 

On 8/19/2022 at 10:24 AM, JoeQ said:

Thats the problem,  im not you and have probably a 1/16th of the intelligence you have when it comes to nutrition/chemistry! 

Completely untrue. It's similar to getting a new phone. Your eyes just need to get familiar with where to look.

All you need to know is how much you want to raise KH and how many gallons/ liters you are dosing. And after that, a set of measuring spoons. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[JoeQ]

On 8/19/2022 at 1:03 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @JoeQ

When we increase the amount of carbonates in the water the pH of the tank increases.  It doesn't matter if it is calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, potassium carbonate they all will increase the pH.  Snail use calcium and carbonates from the water to build their shells.  However, even a tank with a pH of 7.0 has adequate carbonates for shell growth.  The problems for snail shells is when the pH becomes acidic.  The acidic conditions eat away and etch the shells.  If it were me, I would not use coral in my substrate.  I would not routinely add carbonates to the water.  What I would do is monitor my pH and if it drops below 7.0 I would add a very small amount of baking soda (NaHCO₃) NOT BAKING POWDER, to maintain a ph greater than 7.0.  If more calcium is needed I would add Seachem Equilibrium.  Hope this helps! Roy

PS  Seachem Equilbrium contains calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, and potassium sulfate along with a small amount of iron and manganese.  It will increase the dGH of the water but will not increase the pH of the water.  Here in the Seattle area where I live our water is very soft.  In order to healthy plants here I have to use Equilibrium to have sufficient calcium and magnesium in the water for healthy plant growth. 

Thanks roy, I actually have a pretty good understanding of the relationship between ph and kh. It was during this time last year that I used baking soda to save my angel fish from a ph/kh crash. From there I went with CC since it was a permanent buffer, not realizing it was a calcium source as well that had an effect on iron. Ill most likely switch back to baking soda to buffer after water changes. Now my followup, Whats your thoughts on cuttlebone in my substrate as a natural source of calcium. Will it still conflict with liquid iron?

On 8/19/2022 at 1:06 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

It's super easy. 

Completely untrue. It's similar to getting a new phone. Your eyes just need to get familiar with where to look.

Equilibrium is the same thing, just loaded with other stuff that is not needed.

All you need to know is how much you want to raise KH and how many gallons/ liters you are dosing. And after that, I set of measuring spoons. 

I still have the s9+, along with the s20..... I prefer using my s9+ because I hate change!!! 😂

[Mmiller2001]

It's not the calcium causing problems. It's the chelate used at higher pH.

 

[Mmiller2001]

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/ph-kh-gh-tds/kh-explained

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:22 AM, JoeQ said:

Thanks roy, I actually have a pretty good understanding of the relationship between ph and kh. It was during this time last year that I used baking soda to save my angel fish from a ph/kh crash. From there I went with CC since it was a permanent buffer, not realizing it was a calcium source as well that had an effect on iron. Ill most likely switch back to baking soda to buffer after water changes. Now my followup, Whats your thoughts on cuttlebone in my substrate as a natural source of calcium. Will it still conflict with liquid iron?

I still have the s9+, along with the s20..... I prefer using my s9+ because I hate change!!! 😂

Cuttlebone is the same as crushed coral both are calcium carbonate.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/19/2022 at 9:39 AM, JoeQ said:

I might look into the stone idea (lime stone maybe) KH and Ph have a intimate relationship.  Think of kh as the shield around ph, the lower your kh is, the thinner your shield is. Once the acids eat through your shield it eats your ph. Causing rapid ph swing downwards aka ph crash... on the flip side the higher your Kh is, the higher your ph gets! Im sure Im over simplifying it but this is how I understand it to be. Im sure others will speak up and be able to explain it more scientifically.  Bottom line is i like my kh to be around 80ppm which leaves my ph around 6.8~7, when its 40ppm or lower I feel I don't have enough kh insurance in the bank to prevent a kh bankruptcy should I slack on maintenance! 

1000%

I moved about 2 miles down the road from city water to a place that has septic and was parameters (probably due to the age of the pipes and a few other factors) were changed purely based on KH.  As a result of the lower KH, I had PH issues, which is a risk on the shrimp and fish Especially when you're swinging from 6.8 to 6.0 every 3 days on a very understocked tank.

It isn't a great situation, but I also don't have a great way to run CC without having a canister.  WC to keep PH even, weren't enough to keep things stable and it's just something where I used CC for the first time to try and give myself the longevity needed to last week to week with a stable enough tank.  That didn't work either.

I totally understand the risk / issues.  Hopefully you find a solution that works for you.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:34 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/ph-kh-gh-tds/kh-explained

Hi @Mmiller2001

I had the opportunity to see Dennis Wong, the Two Hour Aquarist,  at the International AGA Convention in Seattle in 2019 where he did an Aquascaping presentation.  The man is an artist! -Roy

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Mmiller2001

I had the opportunity to see Dennis Wong, the Two Hour Aquarist,  at the International AGA Convention in Seattle in 2019 where he did an Aquascaping presentation.  The man is an artist! -Roy

I'm jealous for sure! I'm bit of a fan boy 😁. I've read his entire website and he definitely helped me with my own tanks. 

Are you going out to Chicago for this years AGA?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Mmiller2001

I wish I could, I had a great time at the AGA Convention in Seattle even though our local club 'hosted' the event and I worked as a volunteer for five days.  I did get to see lots of great tanks, national vendors, met Christel Kasselman and Dennis.  I also heard some excellent presentations.  Unfortunately my wife has some medical issues that won't allow me to travel this year.  If you get the opportunity I strongly encourage anyone that can attend to do so, the auction on the last day with rare plants is truly inspiring! -Roy