Help! Dropsy! Water change, bath issues, and treatment plans needed

[MidnightBel]

Gonna try to include ALL possible info so I can hopefully get a quick response to act on, however if you have questions please ask! Stick with me it's a long explanation. 

I'll be starting kanaplex tomorrow when it arrives in the mail, because the maracyn 1 didn't work for bacteria issue for fins, nor did salt, and kanaplex can help with dropsy and more. I need to get aquairum salt out now because it made him pinecone worse, but how do I do so without pH shock. I also want to use epsom salt instead and do daily epsom salt baths if possible.

 

HISTORY:

When I got this betta fish awhile ago, I put him through med trio treatment. He already had fin clamping issues and start of fin rot at the time, but this did not fix it. He was in a noncycled tank until meds were done so we could put him into planted, but we haven't been able to heal him up yet.  We got it to cycle part way through treatment of meds (was using prime and stability from before and during treatment as well until cycle finished).  However a few days after the meds the ammonia levels went down after spike, then nitrites, and then we had 5 nitrates. One day nitrates completely disappeared even without water change. I have what I think is diatom algae (from water changes from other tank) and some other type. Is it possible they are creating these weird levels. I did remove 2 coarse sponges because I was worried it was ripping his fins since he would swim in them and sleep in them, but sad to lose beneficial bacteria on them. As fin rot progressed he lost coloration too. I used aquarium salt to try to help fin rot after giving him a couple weeks rest from other meds, but after a week and half he started bloating up heavily and pineconing. He has history of bloating from eating, but we had it under control after I figured out how much to feed him (less than 3 pellets) and switched up his diet. Anyways pineconing started becoming really bad after aquarium salt. Before aquairum salt he had very very minor pinecone when I got him 2 months ago, but I thought I was imagining it because family didn't see it. They didn't even see it until it got this bad. If I knew, I would of used epsom instead of aquarium salt.

 

Water Parameters:

pH 7.8 before 35% water change 7.7-7.8 now

Ammonia 0.075-0.1

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 0

KH 89.5 (5 drops) before water change. 71.6 (4 drops) after water change

 

GH 125.3 (7 drops) before water change 179 (10 drops after because I'm waiting to add 2 more gallons to it for second water change) after water change

 

TDS says 935ppm after 1 gallon water change (was slightly over 1k before water change)

 

Temp 80-81 (before it was 77-78, but switched heaters)

 

 

 

notes: pH was high from salt, it is normally in 7.3- 7.6 range. Did 30% water change and got it down a bit but because I added epsom salt it went back up again. Waited till after 24 hrs right now to see if I can do another water change. It will lower it again in prep for meds when I can't do water changes. Striving for it to stay near 7.5 range. Trying to get that aquarium salt out, but epsom salt in.

 

I've been doing water changes with my cycled planted tank so as not to add ammonia since my tap has 0.5ppm readings and yes this is before and after letting it sit to test it. I'm worried it might be what added more harmful bacteria to him because I'm dealing with green slime in that tank. I haven't seen any in quarantine tank yet. I have seen diatom algae and other particles collect at bottom most likely introduced from planted into qurantine however. I don't know if I even have a cycled hospital tank anymore due to 0, 0 , 0 readings, however I know my planted gets rid of ammonia in a day and has exact same readings (30-40% water change). Nitrates in planted tank come and go depending on when I fertilize it, so even though it is cycled it does have 0 nitrates sometimes too. I haven't tested this in my hospital tank with tap water change because I don't want to add stress esp at such high levels of pH to fish making ammonia more toxic. I've let his waste and leftover food feed bacteria colony, but wondering if bioload is too low to support it.  

Giving him epsom salt bath seemed to help. It reduced pineconing a bit for half a day, but putting him back even after slowly acclimating back made him act lethargic and unresponsive for half a day or more. During bath he was swimming around and begging for food as well as going after shadows of specs he thought was food. The strange behavior after him returning to his home prompted taking 3 gallons out, and putting one gallon of spring water in because I ran out of ammonia free water. His pineconing got better but not 16 hours later it looks worse again. I'm wondering if halfing the dose of salt bath will help (was little under 1 tb for 1g and thinking of halfing it) or wondering if it is the tank itself that he is stressing out in because of aquarium Salt, high salinity etc. 

 

Questions: 

What should I do?

Should I completely take all water out to be able to replace it with epsom instead because aquarium salt seems to make him worse?

Should I just do partial water changes still and if so how much?

Can I do more water changes with thee bottled spring water? It has a pH of 7.4. Tested everything else and I would still add prime etc to it. I don't want to add from planted if it is source of bacterial issue. It's all I have for now.They don't sell reverse osmosis water near me, I've tried, except for one place with ridiculously weird water parameters for my betta (it supposed to be for drinking).

 

 

 

For anyone who stuck it out this long and is trying to help I thank you so much. I'm sorry it was long winded I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi, First I'd like to say, I'm very sorry you are going through this. Betta fish are VERY hard fish to keep. We have very skilled fishkeepers here and even they struggle. I have treated Dropsy in a Betta- the thing about Dropsy is once you see a symptom like pineconing it's already a sign of internal and likely irreversible damage. That's not to say that you may not have a rare case that could recover- but I'm only telling you this to hold on- this is going to be a VERY bumpy ride. 

When I treated my fish, I actually got the pineconing to go away- and had some "recovery" but he didn't last very long afterwards. I did 15 minute Epsom Salt baths to help the swelling. Do not put it in the aquarium. You can keep (AQUARIUM) salting the tank- though you've seen no changes this helps gill function, keeps other external bacterial infections away and can help swelling- it's not going to cure dropsy. Kanaplex is a great med- but it's the most effective when in medicated FOOD so I hope your betta is  still eating. You can treat the water column but they say, especially with Dropsy, this is the nearest chance you have to a recovery. 

His tank water should be very clean, 0 ammonia/nitrite and lower nitrate. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Here is the recipe for medicated food recommended often on this site by @Colu may even add something to what I've recommended: 

[Colu]

The most effective treatment for Dropsy I have food is kanaplex in food to treat any possible internal bacterial infections and it also helps with polycystic kidney disease that can cause Dropsy metroplex to treat the water column as it treats aeromonas bacteria a common cause of Dropsy and aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons to reduce the fluid buildup 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Colu

[MidnightBel]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:04 PM, Colu said:

The most effective treatment for Dropsy I have food is kanaplex in food to treat any possible internal bacterial infections and it also helps with polycystic kidney that can cause Dropsy metroplex to treat the water column as it treats aeromonas bacteria a common cause of Dropsy and aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons to reduce the fluid buildup 

Metroplex sadly won't arrive until Thursday. I finally got in kanaplex today, and I have focus and garlic from local store so I'll start using that. As far as aquarium salt, I had done a 5g removal of water and added back in 2 gallons of spring water thus far. Is this okay and safe? I dosed with epsom salt instead of aquarium (this was done this morning) and his swelling has gone down a ton it would seem especially from the side and even some pineconing from that back. He is also more active and himself. Doing baths causes him to act very strange when I put him back in his tank. I got daphnia in today too, but was wondering if feeding him live gnats would be okay too soaked in treatment. How would you suggest lower the pH slowly? Small water changes replenishing salt? He is still eating thankfully. Lastly if I were to use epsom salt instead of aquarium salt what would be the proper dosing? I had dosed epsom salt at 1/2 teaspoon per 3 gallons inside his tank, and that has helped considerably. I was planning to do 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gallons, but we had to stop water change because pH was altering too much since it was so high to start with. Also tagging @xXInkedPhoenixX for opinions on this. Thank you both so much for answering and helping me. I just want to save my precious baby because he is so personable, smart, and sweet, but I know it will be a long hard fight.

 

Any suggestions on dosing for epsom salt baths? 1 tablespoon per gallon seemed to be fine, but after putting him back in his tank he became lethargic. Then I lowered it to 1/2 tablespoon per gallon or even a bit less and still same thing happened when I put him back. Unsure if it is because of pH change, but I heat the water before slowly introducing the salt water for bath so it is same temp as his tank. Then I put him in diluted half the amount of salt bath for a bit after bath the first time (this was where he started acting super strange to point of lethargic), and second time I tried just putting him back in tank. Both times he became slow moving etc, however he recovered faster with the second bath with lower dose and going back into tank directly, however his fatigue staged from going back looked so much worse that he was laying on his side. I know I have to do salt baths to reduce swelling and be aggressive for treatment, but I don't want to stress him out or shock him to this point so advice would be appreciated. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I have always seemed to find that it is discouraged to keep epsom in a tank- it sounds like your experience is going well so I can't tell you to stop doing it- as I never knew the reason putting it in tanks was discouraged. This is really a hail mary when it comes to saving a fish from dropsy. If what you are doing seems to work and makes him comfortable I cannot argue it- maybe you've come across something that works that hasn't before. Does that make sense? You are the only one in this situation seeing what you are seeing: 

The baths can be stressful for an already sick fish because of netting/handing and removing the fish, putting them in the salt water then back. I get it. I usually do it 1 or 2x a day depending on illness/severity and if after 2 or 3 days there is zero improvement I stop doing it. If your instinct is to stop doing it now- then go with your gut. 

I don't usually recommend chemical fixes for ph but if you truly think it's an issue I would try Seachems Neutral Regulator- I've used their Alkaline Buffer on occassion and it works really well. Sometimes the risk is unstable ph. The typical long term fix is adding wood and tannins to a tank. Indian Almond Leaf would really be beneficial for your Betta and/or all your fish. I've started getting regular shipments of these leaves, boiling 2 in a large stock pot and making that tea part of my regular water change regimine. But if you can get a hold of some, I would go whole hog and put a leaf or two in this little one's tank. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
whoops! my bad!

[Colu]

The reason most people don't add Epsom salt directly to the tank is because it raises your  GH 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Thank you @Colu you are always very helpful- don't know what this forum would do without you. 

[MidnightBel]

 

On 6/6/2022 at 9:11 PM, Colu said:

The reason most people don't add Epsom salt directly to the tank is because it raises your  GH 

Ahh I see. The gh was raised a lot from the aquarium salt itself as well anyways. If I counter it with things that make softer water though it should help then? 

 

On 6/6/2022 at 9:02 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I have always seemed to find that it is discouraged to keep epsom in a tank- it sounds like your experience is going well so I can't tell you to stop doing it- as I never knew the reason putting it in tanks was discouraged. This is really a hail mary when it comes to saving a fish from dropsy. If what you are doing seems to work and makes him comfortable I cannot argue it- maybe you've come across something that works that hasn't before. Does that make sense? You are the only one in this situation seeing what you are seeing: 

The baths can be stressful for an already sick fish because of netting/handing and removing the fish, putting them in the salt water then back. I get it. I usually do it 1 or 2x a day depending on illness/severity and if after 2 or 3 days there is zero improvement I stop doing it. If your instinct is to stop doing it now- then go with your gut. 

I don't usually recommend chemical fixes for ph but if you truly think it's an issue I would try Seachems Neutral Regulator- I've used their Alkaline Buffer on occassion and it works really well. Sometimes the risk is unstable ph. The typical long term fix is adding wood and tannins to a tank. Indian Almond Leaf would really be beneficial for your Betta and/or all your fish. I've started getting regular shipments of these leaves, boiling 2 in a large stock pot and making that tea part of my regular water change regimine. But if you can get a hold of some, I would go whole hog and put a leaf or two in this little one's tank. 

I have some driftwood already, but even after boiling it I've had issues with it growing white stuff like it normally does because it is spider wood. Should I worry about that? Or just boil for longer, scrub down, and boil again to be safe then put it in the tank. I just don't want that growing in a hospital tank per say. I'll get my hands on the leaves asap as well. I sadly only have leaves for leaf litter like magnolia and live oak atm because of my reptiles. Would that work in the meantime or is it not recommended? (They are new leaves in bag waiting to be boiled to be added to bioactive enclosures). I'll keep up the baths in the meantime because he gets better the day of, (I've only done one a day), but then after 24h he gets pinecone again however the belly water retention is thankfully gone. I think part of issue is he gets constipated a lot and that led to swim bladder in past, and maybe even dropsy being caused by this and the bacteria issues etc.

[MidnightBel]

Should I be keeping the dose of salt per gallon in my tank for epsom salt the same then? 1/2 teaspoon per 3 gallons? Should I lower it to the original 5 like recommended by others? I know for goldfish people have gone up to a teaspoon per gallon in the tank itself, and for Bettas online it recommended anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 per 5 gallons.

[Colu]

One table spoon for 3 gallons is enough to help reduce the fluid buildup I would use Epsom salt in baths and add add aquarium to the tank  aquarium salt doesn't raise your GH

[MidnightBel]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:30 AM, Colu said:

One table spoon for 3 gallons is enough to help reduce the fluid buildup I would use Epsom salt in baths and add add aquarium to the tank  aquarium salt doesn't raise your GH

So I had already put the epsom salt in by the time this was posted and had dosed the meds too. It did raise the gh by 3 drops so planned to start taking epsom salt out with water changes after first kanaplex dose was over.

Do you recommend using a little bit of distilled mixed in with the spring water I used prior for this water change? And how much of a water change should I do. Was planning around 3 gallons, but don't want to alter pH too much and the new water has lower pH (esp the distilled so was thinking no more than half a gallon of it). I plan to use aquarium salt with water change and I'll be adding metro plex too.

Also was recommended stress coat, but wasn't sure if I could use that with prime, and with all the meds. Would I need to worry more about oxygen levels and could I resolve this by adding another air stone in the tank, and would it be okay for it to be powered using the same pump? Thank you so much for your feed back!

 

Just side note too should I be dosing kanaplex in water in case he doesn't eat the food? Or eats food with less medicine on it/not as much etc? 

[Colu]

I would keep  dosing kanaplex in food if your using metroplex like a suggested to treat the tank depending on the size of your tank I would do a 25% water change I have never used distilled or spring water only tap if theirs a big difference in the pH I wouldn't from what I have read you can use prime and stress coat together  I would always add an extra air when treating to increase levels of desolved oxygen you can add use the same pump and use a splitter valve

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I've used Stress Coat and Prime together (because prime was my water conditioner at the time and while Stress Coat is kinda advertised as one too I don't use it regularly due to its thickness)- no issues. 

[MidnightBel]

Update and questions: 

Originally for a day or two the pineconing seemed to get better, then the following days it got progressivly worse. Yestersay it looked like this.

I was finally able to add metroplex yesterday to the water since it came in the mail. He was more energetic yesterday than the entire week (before metroplex) and overall as the days progressed seems to recover from the daily salt baths quicker. The past two days he has been begging for food more again, not just eating when I feed him and been more active so that makes me happy. He has also been pooping regularly and more frequently than normal, which is good because bloating in stomach from his prone to constipation issues seems to have lessened.  

These are images from today where he is much skinnier and pineconing only easily showed on upper body after feeding. Much different than other days.

Lastly just wanted to add it seemed he had a bump form on his back after the pineconing, and a white patch near the gill one one side. This happened after pineconing so was curious if these were signs of tuberculosis from pH issues etc due to salt (it swings by from 7.5 back up to 7.8 next day every water change and before salt treatments he wasn't used to 7.8), or potentially columnaris on white patch. Also putting in image of fin rot for documenting purposes. 

I know this ride is far from over, but thank you to those who are helping me try to save my baby. 

 

[Colu]

I don't think that's Columnaris if it were bacterial the medication your using should sort that out he does look like he's loss some weight I would try feeding him up with daphnia brine shrimp and occasionally feed him some blood worms 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Colu
Stupid auto correct

[MidnightBel]

On 6/11/2022 at 6:58 PM, Colu said:

I don't think that's Columnaris if it were bacterial the medication your using should sort that out he dose look like he's loss some weight I would try feeding him up with daphnia brine shrimp and occasionally feed him some blood worms 

He hates brine shrimp. Right now I'm still feeding him medicated mix of daphnia, fluval bug bites, and xtreme aquatic foods flakes. I had to do it this way or he doesn't touch the daphnia because it is too powdery and mushy even when dosed with meds. He loves frozen bloodworms though so I'll make sure to give him some. Would it be okay to feed him live gnats from petstore as well or should I be worried about him getting sick from them? Planning to feed him twice a day instead of his once daily now that he is pooping frequently. Before he rarely pooped; it was once a day or every other day. Or if it was more it dissolved before I could see at least, which was why his feeding regime was so low. 

[Colu]

On 6/12/2022 at 5:25 AM, MidnightBel said:

Would it be okay to feed him live gnats from petstore as well or should I be worried about him getting sick from them?

I have never feed gnats to my fish I don't think it would be. A problem  you can also get fruit fry cultures 

[MidnightBel]

Update once again for those following this, and some new concerns with an S curve. Hoping I'm just a paranoid overprotective mom.

So the pineconing completely disappeared and some of his color has returned. I think I see a bit of new growth on his tail, but I am not sure. I do think I still see some tail clamping though on his bottom fin.  He has had a very very healthy appetite and is constantly begging for food, greeting me every time I walk into the room again, and just begging for attention and playtime again. Because of this, after the week of medicated food was up (plus one day because of a fast day taken mid week), and after the extra couple days of metroplex treatment was done since it was started later, I waited for a bit to see if anything returned. The pineconing disappeared on the 3rd day of metroplex in the tank for context, but I still did/waited for the full treatment. I then waited several days observing (by this time after pineconing was gone I had stopped salt baths) and then decided to do a water change this Sunday.

On Sunday I took out 3 gallons of water and added 2 new gallons of just water in to dilute the salt in the tank. I planned to wait to see how my baby did before continuing to add more normal water and do more water changes to get the rest of the salt out. I want to make sure pineconing doesn't return so have been doing it slowly to catch if I need to add more salt. I was out of town for an appointment after the water change and just got back less than a half hour ago noticing an S curve, and I think a new black dot. His high energy is the same as when I left, however half of the time when he is in a resting postion it is with the S curve. He only used to do this rarely and mainly did the S when doing tricks like jumping out of water for food. Not sure if right now he is resting like that so much hoping for food from me or what since he is looking up at me looking down at him.

I had my sister watching him after the water change and feeding just 3-4 fluval bug bites daily, and told her to check several times daily for any signs of pineconing returning. I however did not expect to see this new S shape behavior.

pH raised to 7.9 after water change from 7.8 even though I used 7.4 water, Ammonia levels are 0.2 ppm, Nitrite 0 and nitrates are 0-1. GH is 10 down from the 11 before water change. Been dosing with prime every other day, with stress coat still, and with occasional stability. I also had to remove driftwood, his floating log, and almond leaves in worry about white fungus on it. Will be boiling wood again, treating with hydrogen peroxide for the plastic and wood things and returning them later just to be safe.

He has still been pooping regularly it seems, has his energy, is super excited to see people, and is looking overall good although on the skinny side, yet a huge appetite that is perhaps bigger than it ever has been. I wasn't able to get him to eat daphina on its own so I will be making a mixture with his other dry foods like the medicine mixture without medicine to get him to eat a more balanced diet. I'll also be purchasing fruit flies since the last two times I checked my pet store they didn't have any and adding more frozen bloodworms in diet perhaps twice weekly to get some more calorie dense meals in him for appetite and hopefully a little weight gain. 

Overall is the S curve something to be worried about? I know it could mean organ issues, spine issues or something else. He still swims normally a lot of the time although sometimes it is more excited and jerky usually when I'm observing him because he wants me to feed him on his leaf or say hello. Not sure if him going crazy excited would also be considered glass surfing since whenever I walked in the room he would do this until I put my finger to the glass to say hi and layed down next to him (this was from day 1 pretty much). That was when he would calm down and go about his day unless he hadn't been fed yet. I would say the back and forth swimming is more energetic now like dog zoomies, but still seems like he is trying to get my attention, because if I ignore it long enough he eventually calms down. Pics of S like curve that happens sometimes at bottom of page and also how he looks when it is more normal too. 

 

Summary of Help Needed:

Is this an S curve? And if so what could be causing it? Should I be worried? What is the black dots on him now?  Should I keep doing water changes to remove salt? Do the fins look like they are healing or getting worse? And do I need to worry about energy level craziness moments, food obsessiveness, and weight? 

Thank you so much for your help.

EDIT: I should add I'm setting up a second hospital tank tomorrow to try to get it cycled fully as soon as possible. This way if the bacteria, fungal, or parasite or whatever my betta might have or had that caused pineconing is in the tank still, I can get him into a new one after cycle asap. I just want him to be in nice fully clean water, but dont want to completely stress him with ammonia from resetting current tank since I'm not sure if the current tank he is in cycle crashed or not and don't want to start from square one. I've never had ammonia stay high 0.2 until now, it has always gone down by next day or two. Anyways started new tank with fishless cycle and so on so when it is done he has a nice new home free from anything bad, including ammonia and so on.

Edited June 23, 2022 by MidnightBel
Added tank plan