Crystal Red Shrimp Struggles

[The Goatee]

I am new to Crystal Red Shrimp (CRS). I am having all sorts of problems keeping them alive. What am I possibly doing wrong? Water parameters using API Master Test kit drops and TDS meter:

GH: 7

KH: 0 or 1

TDS: 125 to 135

PH: 6.6

Temperature: usually fluctuates 73 to 74 degrees, room temperature maintained no heater.

Nitrates: between 20 and 40 ppm, too hard to tell exact hue

Nitrite & Ammonia: 0

Heavily planted 6 gallon long nano tank, finnex mini hang on back filter, fluval stratum. I use RO/DI water remineralized with shrimp salt Gh+.  Tank has been going 8 weeks. Have had two different batches from two different suppliers.

I drip acclimated for two and three hours. Bag sat at room temperature a few hours before drip acclimating. Temperature was equal or within 1 degree before starting drip.

First batch totally died unless one survived in hiding. I have a couple alive but sluggish after 5 days with my second batch. Most deaths happen between 36 to 72 hours.

Edited April 25, 2022 by The Goatee

[Tihshho]

Not intending this question to be gore focused, but how are the shrimp when you find them? Are the bodies soft? Are you finding molts in the tank? During your drip acclimation, how much water are you starting with vs. how much is in the container you're dripping into at the end? Why are you leaving the shrimp in a bag for an hour before dripping them? Was this tank cycled prior to the addition of shrimp? How did you cycle it? Is this formerly a virgin tank, or was there something in it before (as in has this ever had copper meds in it)? 

[Patrick_G]

I feel for you! That sounds like my early attempts at Neos. It sounds like you’re doing everything by the book. The best advice I can think of is try and get some that have been bred locally. That way you’ll be able to match parameters and hopefully connect with the breeder for advice. 
 

[The Goatee]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:08 PM, Tihshho said:

Not intending this question to be gore focused, but how are the shrimp when you find them? Are the bodies soft? Are you finding molts in the tank? During your drip acclimation, how much water are you starting with vs. how much is in the container you're dripping into at the end? Why are you leaving the shrimp in a bag for an hour before dripping them? Was this tank cycled prior to the addition of shrimp? How did you cycle it? Is this formerly a virgin tank, or was there something in it before (as in has this ever had copper meds in it)? 

The shrimp do not appear to have molted. They are intact when removed. They remain in the breather bag for a couple of hours on the counter, arrived via mail, so I let the water in the bag equalize to room temperature so there isn’t a wide difference when the drip begins. The container roughly becomes 50% bag water and 50% tank water after a couple of hours of acclimation, somewhere between 1/2 and 1 gallon overall in the plastic container. The tank was cycled, never used before, for five weeks before any shrimp added, cycled on its own after 2 weeks, tested cycle many weeks ago with powdered ammonia which processed in 24 hours. I have a copper and phosphate drip tester coming later in the week.

[The Goatee]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:12 PM, Patrick_G said:

I feel for you! That sounds like my early attempts at Neos. It sounds like you’re doing everything by the book. The best advice I can think of is try and get some that have been bred locally. That way you’ll be able to match parameters and hopefully connect with the breeder for advice. 
 

I’d gotten Neos a year ago from both providers I got the CRS. I made the mistake of mixing colors, so my colony is huge and mostly clear. Though I’ve had some interesting colors show up. If I cannot get CRS to stick, I am probably going to try Neos of one color. I had some deaths when I started my Neo tank last year, but it was only a couple from each batch.

[The Goatee]

Tested for copper and phosphates today. Zero copper, zero or next lowest value on phosphates. Nitrates 20ppm. Plants have been growing like crazy.

So much a mystery to me.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Firstly, @The GoateeI am sorry for your loss. Thanks for the info you have provided so far. Could you post a pic of the tank for reference? Sometimes we can see things that perhaps you can't. 

The breeders tend to send older specimens - grandpa and grandma - instead of young and smaller specimens which can handle stress better. Did you note anything like this with the shrimp that arrived? Were they large adult shrimps - like what you see online in the pics - or were they just bigger than shrimplets?

It sounds like you cycled the tank with ammonia. In shrimp keeping circles there is a lot of discussion regarding cycling and maturing a tank. Were the walls coated in green algae at the end? White and brown and other colored biofilms on the gravel and decor? Did you use any Bacter AE or other bacterial aide to establish your bacteria and biofilm? A cycled tank and a mature tank are very different. Shrimp want a mature tank with loads of biofilm and the conditions for this biofilm to be kept in good supply the right balance of bacteria, yeast and molds that form the biofilm that they love. Usually they come in ravenous and will eat everything in sight. Then around 24-48 hours they run out of their preferred food that is higher in protein and that's when a second load of stress can hit them. They eat only within a couple inches of where they land when they first settle in to a tank. Some will get the zoomies - cruising around the tank in mid water. From the start were they kind of lethargic or were they initially active then like a light switch they stopped and got sluggish? 

What were your parameters like at 24-36 hours? Were there any changes you noted in that short period? Any slight bump in the parameters? 

How old was the bag of stratum? Had it been open for awhile? Was it fresh or leftover from another build? Aquasoils and buffering substrates can dry out a bit if not used right away or stored correctly so there are reports where it was too old and did not buffer well or attracted the wrong kind of bacteria because it was not "active." 

I think your pH may be too high. Did you test the pH of the water they were sent in? Although they say that CRS can live around 6.5 does not mean they will thrive. They are at their best around 5.5-6. If the breeders importers are keeping them well below 6 then you may have been put at a real disadvantage. Stratum from my reading is excellent for tiger shrimps but not for the crystals and the Tai-bees - reports on it's buffering capacity vary but my tap is 7-7.2 and it lowers me to 6.5-6.8. Amazonia tends to be more trusted by breeders - I think this is familiarity not that other substrates can't do the job.  You could load your tank with botanicals and throw in a bit more wood. You mentioned heavily planted this can mean different things to different people. A bit of hardscape is really important in a shrimp setup as rocks and wood are magnates for biofilm. Another thing to artificially change the pH is using peat, either the fluval or eheim or sera peat or pure peat from a garden center. You can put it in a bag with your HOB and give it 3-5 days, then see where the pH falls to. Then I would leave it in and monitor the pH regularly. Then when the pH starts to rise you know how long that peat product will last and how often you need to change out the bag. 

 

[The Goatee]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:41 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

Firstly, @The GoateeI am sorry for your loss. Thanks for the info you have provided so far. Could you post a pic of the tank for reference? Sometimes we can see things that perhaps you can't. 

The breeders tend to send older specimens - grandpa and grandma - instead of young and smaller specimens which can handle stress better. Did you note anything like this with the shrimp that arrived? Were they large adult shrimps - like what you see online in the pics - or were they just bigger than shrimplets?

It sounds like you cycled the tank with ammonia. In shrimp keeping circles there is a lot of discussion regarding cycling and maturing a tank. Were the walls coated in green algae at the end? White and brown and other colored biofilms on the gravel and decor? Did you use any Bacter AE or other bacterial aide to establish your bacteria and biofilm? A cycled tank and a mature tank are very different. Shrimp want a mature tank with loads of biofilm and the conditions for this biofilm to be kept in good supply the right balance of bacteria, yeast and molds that form the biofilm that they love. Usually they come in ravenous and will eat everything in sight. Then around 24-48 hours they run out of their preferred food that is higher in protein and that's when a second load of stress can hit them. They eat only within a couple inches of where they land when they first settle in to a tank. Some will get the zoomies - cruising around the tank in mid water. From the start were they kind of lethargic or were they initially active then like a light switch they stopped and got sluggish? 

What were your parameters like at 24-36 hours? Were there any changes you noted in that short period? Any slight bump in the parameters? 

How old was the bag of stratum? Had it been open for awhile? Was it fresh or leftover from another build? Aquasoils and buffering substrates can dry out a bit if not used right away or stored correctly so there are reports where it was too old and did not buffer well or attracted the wrong kind of bacteria because it was not "active." 

I think your pH may be too high. Did you test the pH of the water they were sent in? Although they say that CRS can live around 6.5 does not mean they will thrive. They are at their best around 5.5-6. If the breeders importers are keeping them well below 6 then you may have been put at a real disadvantage. Stratum from my reading is excellent for tiger shrimps but not for the crystals and the Tai-bees - reports on it's buffering capacity vary but my tap is 7-7.2 and it lowers me to 6.5-6.8. Amazonia tends to be more trusted by breeders - I think this is familiarity not that other substrates can't do the job.  You could load your tank with botanicals and throw in a bit more wood. You mentioned heavily planted this can mean different things to different people. A bit of hardscape is really important in a shrimp setup as rocks and wood are magnates for biofilm. Another thing to artificially change the pH is using peat, either the fluval or eheim or sera peat or pure peat from a garden center. You can put it in a bag with your HOB and give it 3-5 days, then see where the pH falls to. Then I would leave it in and monitor the pH regularly. Then when the pH starts to rise you know how long that peat product will last and how often you need to change out the bag. 

 

Thanks for this super detailed reply. The tank was actually cycled on its own. The ammonia was merely testing the cycle after the tank was going for 6 weeks or so. The shrimp were not adult sized when received. They were all pretty active for the first 24 hours. After they had all died, I tried with some cherry shrimp a couple of weeks later. Many of them died but a few of them survived. I ended up giving up on shrimp for now and have a small school of whiteclouds and a honey gourami. They’ve all been doing well and I still see a cherry shrimp or two time to time. The tank is so heavy with plant growth that there is zero algae and the nutrients / nitrates get held below 20ppm. I am removing fist full of red root floaters every couple of weeks.

[Andy's Fish Den]

I have been keeping PRL crystal reds for a few years now, as well as crystal black shrimps. 

Are you using RO water and remineralizing it? If you are trying to mix RO and tap water a lot of times it just doesn't work. I use RO water and remineralize with SaltyShrimp Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+ to a TDS of 150. Honestly, I am not 100% sure what my other parameters are, I just mix the water until I have the TDS reading 150, and have not had any issues. Make sure to top off for evaporation with straight RO water. I keep them in a 10 gallon tank, only change a gallon of water every few weeks, small co-op sponge filter, no heater. Substrate is Fluval stratum, I keep an Indian almond leaf or some mulberry leaves in there all the time. When I change water, I mix to 150 TDS and leave the jug of water sitting out near the tank for a day or two to equalize temp, drain the water from tank and then slowly pour the new water in the tank to keep from disturbing the substrate and leaves etc in the tank. 

[The Goatee]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:58 AM, Andy's Fish Den said:

I have been keeping PRL crystal reds for a few years now, as well as crystal black shrimps. 

Are you using RO water and remineralizing it? If you are trying to mix RO and tap water a lot of times it just doesn't work. I use RO water and remineralize with SaltyShrimp Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+ to a TDS of 150. Honestly, I am not 100% sure what my other parameters are, I just mix the water until I have the TDS reading 150, and have not had any issues. Make sure to top off for evaporation with straight RO water. I keep them in a 10 gallon tank, only change a gallon of water every few weeks, small co-op sponge filter, no heater. Substrate is Fluval stratum, I keep an Indian almond leaf or some mulberry leaves in there all the time. When I change water, I mix to 150 TDS and leave the jug of water sitting out near the tank for a day or two to equalize temp, drain the water from tank and then slowly pour the new water in the tank to keep from disturbing the substrate and leaves etc in the tank. 

Everything described is what I’d previously  done. Remineralized RO/DI water and the TDS was 125 to 135 depending on which reader you want to believe. My tap water is a pH in the 8 to 8.4 range with incredibly high kh and 150 to 170 TDS. I don’t use that for the shrimp since it is too hard and saps the Stratum quickly.

[Tihshho]

In terms of the RO you get, is it bottled water or you were producing your own through an RO/DI setup?

[The Goatee]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:11 PM, Tihshho said:

In terms of the RO you get, is it bottled water or you were producing your own through an RO/DI setup?

Bottled.

[Tihshho]

This from a LFS that has an RO/DI system or is it grocery store? Most consumption bottles of water from the grocery store are not really RO/DI as drinking stripped water isn't good for people in the long run. 

[The Goatee]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:07 PM, Tihshho said:

This from a LFS that has an RO/DI system or is it grocery store? Most consumption bottles of water from the grocery store are not really RO/DI as drinking stripped water isn't good for people in the long run. 

It is grocery store, but it is explicitly sold as RO/DI water not for consumption and the parameters from said bottles match the outcome you’d get from a personal system. If there is something else in there, like a bacteria, I don’t know. But it is completely neutral ph with 0 TDS. No copper, no phosphates, no ammonia compounds, no chlorine, nothing from any of the various API strips or drops that raises a red flag.

[Tihshho]

Interesting, not many grocery stores offer bottled RO/DI. 

With all that covered, if you wanted to try again I would wait to introduce the shrimp into an established tank. Ideally one that is going to be shrimp only. Most shrimp tanks I've had success with were running 3-4 months prior to adding new to me shrimp. Once I had populations spawning in my water I could move them to just about any tank I had, new or old.

[Andy's Fish Den]

On 5/23/2022 at 4:42 PM, Tihshho said:

 

With all that covered, if you wanted to try again I would wait to introduce the shrimp into an established tank. Ideally one that is going to be shrimp only. Most shrimp tanks I've had success with were running 3-4 months prior to adding new to me shrimp. Once I had populations spawning in my water I could move them to just about any tank I had, new or old.

This would be my suggestion as well. Make sure the tank is well established "seasoned" before introducing your initial batch of shrimp. 

You could also talk to who you are buying the shrimp from and find out their water parameters. I have found with the crystals I have kept that as long as I have a buffering substrate such as stratum or one of the ones from Brightwell, and remineralize RO/DI water to 150 TDS with the Salty shrimp stuff I am good to go. I notice they start not breeding as much if it starts getting away from that.